The Andromeda Strain

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
Maxentius
Padawan Learner
Posts: 298
Joined: 2008-05-16 04:12pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Post by Maxentius »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Oh please. :roll:

You act like that was the whole movie, in the end the government WASNT EVEN THE BAD GUY...it was some alien race (in the future). The Government wasnt evil, Aristotle, it was, at worst, stupid and short sighted.

What rubs you the wrong way about this: the fact they added a subplot about the (perfectly reasonable, and frankly, realistic) government CYA response, or the fact they made the government look "mean" instead of pure as the wind driven snow?

No seriously this is precious. The government wasnt even shown to be EVIL in the movie. It wasnt even their fault the virus was unleashed, if the people in that town hadnt opened the probe then the army would have contained the virus and it would have been over before it started. At worst they're shown as being willing to kill to cover up a mistake that wasnt even their fault, but that they'd be blamed for, and you think they're being shown in a BAD light? They're just covering their asses like any government would IRL, and if you think they wouldnt you're an idiot.

Besides the government has been fucking around with bioweapons for generations. Google the words "Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment" and see what i mean.
Wow, try rereading. Where did I once say I disliked the conspiracy angle because it portrayed the government in a negative light? I disliked it because it caters to modern cliche trends while adding absolutely nothing to the series itself. And the worst part is that if you've read the book, it's blatantly obvious that the subplot has nowhere to go, because you're aware of how things are wrapped up, and this 'conspiracy kekek!' bullshit has no room to fit in.

Seriously, this is precious - the fact you've managed to somehow conjure up an idea that I disdained this subplot because of its portrayal of the United States government, as opposed to the fact that it pretty much went nowhere, was almost totally divorced from the main plot arc, had even more mediocre acting than the major thread, was contrived as all hell, and pretty much contributed nothing to the plot, except for more loose ends at the end of the series. Yeah, I totally didn't like it because it portrays the government in less-than-optimal manner. :roll:

And, you know the funny part? The government was portrayed as evil, at least in relation to our plucky, never-wrong protagonist. Or did you miss the part where it was that chap blackmailing Barton that caused the lab to breach in the first place? That's not an evil act, but it was certainly placed in the final cut with the intention of evoking a gut reaction - Wow, that wouldn't have happened if the government didn't want to keep a sample of Andromeda! Two characters are even assassinated at the end of the movie

I'm also not sure where you got aliens from. It seemed pretty clear, to me at least, that the Beeter character was implied to be behind the whole thing.
Rome is an eternal thought in the mind of God... If there were no Rome, I'd dream of her.
--Marcus Licinius Crassus, Spartacus.

User avatar
Cykeisme
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2416
Joined: 2004-12-25 01:47pm
Contact:

Post by Cykeisme »

So the threat that was sent back in time, is in fact the cause of the threat in the future.. which is the reason it was sent back in time.

What's an ontological paradox? Do the Terminator movies (first and second, anyway) constitute one?
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
User avatar
18-Till-I-Die
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7271
Joined: 2004-02-22 05:07am
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds...obviously

Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Cykeisme wrote:So the threat that was sent back in time, is in fact the cause of the threat in the future.. which is the reason it was sent back in time.

What's an ontological paradox? Do the Terminator movies (first and second, anyway) constitute one?
Yes, in fact that's a perfect example of one. Another example would be the Robert Heinlen (sp?) story "All You Zombies".

The basic rule of thumb is this...it's an ontological paradox if the root cause has no actual origin. It's either information or some object passed back and forth through time with no actual point of origin or reason for existence, creating a stable time loop. IOW, God did it, apparently for the lulz.

An interesting thing about Terminator is it contains SEVERAL ontological paradoxes. For exmaple, John Connor teaches the humans in the future how to kill the terminators, and Kyle Reese teaches Sarah Connor who in turn teaches John...so the knowledge has no actual origin. The "message" that Kyle gives to Sarah, she gives to John, who in turn gives it to Kyle...the "No Fate" message has no origin, no one who came up with it "first". The Terminator and Skynet are both ontological paradoxes also. That movie almost has more of them than "All You Zombies".
Kanye West Saves.

Image
User avatar
Balrog
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2258
Joined: 2002-12-29 09:29pm
Location: Fortress of Angband

Post by Balrog »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:There were no "zombies" in the movie. :roll:

Look, some people instead of dying suffer from psychosis before they die, causing them to become violent before finally going down.
So the giant flock of birds that got infected just up and decided, rather then attack each other, that they'd rather fly a few miles over that way to go peck the Army soldiers to death? :roll: It was a cheap way to introduce "When Crazy/Dead People Attack!" Syndrome that's been popular in the media, but worse it adds nothing to the plot. The disease was already deadly enough without turning people into psychopaths.
You act like that was the whole movie, in the end the government WASNT EVEN THE BAD GUY...it was some alien race (in the future). The Government wasnt evil, Aristotle, it was, at worst, stupid and short sighted.
:? Just who or what sent Andromeda was only guessed at, never elaborated upon, but I find questionable the fact that you don't find the Sec. of Defense trying twice to have the nosey reporter killed (even using a Blackwater hit team), the black scientists having her family threatened into trying to save a sample, or the General and his aide being taken out with one to the head each, as being evil. It's the tired cliche of 'black helicopters in the night' without adding anything meaningful to the main story; it's not even written well enough to ignore such an offense.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
User avatar
18-Till-I-Die
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7271
Joined: 2004-02-22 05:07am
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds...obviously

Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

The government wasnt evil, just stupid and greedy. At worst they're amoral but not actively evil. This isnt the Galactic Empire we're talking about, it's a bunch of politicos doing the usual cover your ass maneuver.

It wasnt their fault the virus was released, Andromeda was some kind of wierd time paradox-cum-alien bioweapon. They did everything they could to contain it, the virus just outmaneuvered them. Hell it wouldnt have been released at all if the people in the town hadnt opened the probe...which again, is stupidity not evil.

They killed those people because they thought they would be blamed for the incident weather they did it or not (stupid, short sighted, but not outright malicious). They tried to steal Andromeda because they figured it'd be a good bioweapon, in case we ever go to war with China or some nonsense like that (greedy, stupid, and amoral). And really can you blame them for their response--no matter what happens it will look terrible for the government, either a whole town died because of a "NASA satellite", or they nuke it and get screwed by the international community for "nuclear tests". CYA is a perfectly reasonable, if amoral, response, it was their way of doing it that was stupid. If they had been less hamfisted and more restrained, they could have actually turned it around and made themselves out to be "heroes" against some alien invasion (which appears to be eventually what they did, in fact)...but at first they were, as i said, stupid, short sighted, panic-driven and didnt think it through. I dont think it was justified, but it was clearly not malicious just stupid and amoral--so basically it's an actively portrayal of politicians.

As for the birds...look i dont know what you're trying to say. They constantly explained that Andromeda was a sapient organism, it was mentioned numerous times, the birds were a method of spreading itself and only used once. They werent "zombies", nor were the, what, three people who went crazy...the humans went crazy because of brain damage from the virus, they made that fairly clear i think. They werent directly controlled, like the birds. And really it was hardly even a "virus" as we understand it, it was some kind of intelligent "viral lifeform", not unlike The Thing or the plague in the recent movie Invasion with Nicole Kidman, where every part of it is a whole capable of communicating and functioning on it's own.
Kanye West Saves.

Image
User avatar
Maxentius
Padawan Learner
Posts: 298
Joined: 2008-05-16 04:12pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Post by Maxentius »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:The government wasnt evil, just stupid and greedy. At worst they're amoral but not actively evil. This isnt the Galactic Empire we're talking about, it's a bunch of politicos doing the usual cover your ass maneuver.
Assassination is about as amoral as it gets.
It wasnt their fault the virus was released, Andromeda was some kind of wierd time paradox-cum-alien bioweapon. They did everything they could to contain it, the virus just outmaneuvered them. Hell it wouldnt have been released at all if the people in the town hadnt opened the probe...which again, is stupidity not evil.
Nor would it have been released if Barton was not blackmailed, thus leading to her attempting to smuggle out a sample and the virus mutating and eating through the casing. It is not direct responsibility, though the government's actions, reprehensible to begin with, began the chain of events which resulted in the loss of containment. It is very clear that the Director's intent was for the viewer to hold the government responsible in terms of emotional reaction.
They killed those people because they thought they would be blamed for the incident weather they did it or not (stupid, short sighted, but not outright malicious). They tried to steal Andromeda because they figured it'd be a good bioweapon, in case we ever go to war with China or some nonsense like that (greedy, stupid, and amoral).
I'm sorry? Killing people is not outright malicious? What is, then? Shooting their immediate family in the head before torturing them and leaving them quadriplegic? Did you miss the part where Mancheck and Ferrus both get one in the head?
Rome is an eternal thought in the mind of God... If there were no Rome, I'd dream of her.
--Marcus Licinius Crassus, Spartacus.

User avatar
18-Till-I-Die
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7271
Joined: 2004-02-22 05:07am
Location: In your base, killing your d00ds...obviously

Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

If they were malicious, IMO, it would be something like the government created Andromeda and dropped it on the town to see what would happen but it got out of control. I.e. like what happened in the 1980s version of The Blob. Or they picked up the virus on purpose and dropped it on the town to breed a large batch of it so they could harvest it, like when that Corporate dude tried to get Rpley and Newt infected with the Xenos in Aliens so he could smuggle one back.

But whatever, ok, lets concede this point. Cause frankly now i feel dirty defending a bunch of politicians.


So what?

So fucking what? Why doesnt this part of the plot (it's hardly a subplot since it directly impacts the story) fit? Maybe it's cause i didnt enjoy the original, dry, over-technical movie this one is based on but so far i dont get the big hoopla here. "Black Helicopters"? Really? So any time the government is shown...doing things the government regularly does and has been for generations (i.e. assassinations, cover ups, etc) it's some how like 911 truthers? Again the only real reason i can see taking issue with what is, frankly, a fairly generous portrayal of these people is if you really believe that this could never happen (not the sentient virus, i mean the government response).
Kanye West Saves.

Image
Johonebesus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1487
Joined: 2002-07-06 11:26pm

Post by Johonebesus »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:The government wasnt evil, just stupid and greedy. At worst they're amoral but not actively evil. This isnt the Galactic Empire we're talking about, it's a bunch of politicos doing the usual cover your ass maneuver.
Evidently you have a different definition of evil than other folks. Killing people out of greed and stupidity seems pretty evil to me. A person's motivation doesn't have to be "ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" in order to make his acts evil.
"Can you eat quarks? Can you spread them on your bed when the cold weather comes?" -Bernard Levin

"Sir: Mr. Bernard Levin asks 'Can you eat quarks?' I estimate that he eats 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,001 quarks a day...Yours faithfully..." -Sir Alan Cottrell


Elohim's loving mercy: "Hey, you, don't turn around. WTF! I said DON'T tur- you know what, you're a pillar of salt now. Bitch." - an anonymous commenter
User avatar
Cykeisme
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2416
Joined: 2004-12-25 01:47pm
Contact:

Post by Cykeisme »

Sounds like the standard portrayal of an evil government of conspiratorial badness.

The fact that the government is responsible for the mishap in the first place (by saving a sample of the virus) is the exclamation mark at the end of the statement, or perhaps also a series of ones followed by a tilde (i.e. !!!!!11~).
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
User avatar
Noble Ire
The Arbiter
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-04-30 12:03am
Location: Beyond the Outer Rim

Post by Noble Ire »

I appreciated the miniseries' high production values, but beyond that, it was rather forgettable. The acting wasn't as bad as it could have been, but there was a lot in there that seemed totally unnecessary and laughably clichéd. What was the point of the reporter's subplot? It barely tied in with the main story at all. And what's with the stereotypical "evil government agency/official" whose actions are totally dominated by the desire to cover their own ass, even when their behavior endangers the human species itself? One seems to show up in virtually every contemporary "real world" sci-fi film. And that's not even mentioning his obligatory, bloody-minded henchman, who seemed more fixated on racking up a body count in a variety of merciless ways than actually doing his job (seriously, why didn't the "evil" lieutenant or whoever he was simply shoot the reporter while he had him in the brig, rather than sending him off on a helicopter with a bomb that was guaranteed to kill three of his own soldiers and ultimately failed to actually finish the job).

There were also parts of the finale that seemed somewhat inconsistent. Why didn't the scientist tasked with destroying the samples die when one got loose? The only biologically "benign" strain of Andromeda we see is the smoke-borne one that destroys the bomber, and that strain was not the one that Wildfire derived its sample cultures from. Why was the lab's central shaft disintegrating? Did I miss some explanation in the dialogue? And why didn't the scientist who dropped down to retrieve the "Odd Man's" thumb simply stand on the edge of the reactor pool rather than jumping in and committing suicide? The pool was not that large, and the body was within easy reach. And on top of all that, how did the last sample of Andromeda get to the ISS at the end? Surely the scientists would have destroyed the last sample before the "evil agency's" operatives could have retrieved it, putting aside the fact that the strain seemed to be eating through its containment capsule when it was last shown. Did the "traitorous" scientist comply with the blackmail, even after the self-destruct incident?
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
User avatar
Johnathon_Chance
Youngling
Posts: 99
Joined: 2005-08-08 03:45pm

Post by Johnathon_Chance »

It was OK, but too long for what it was. The F16 crash was a bit unreal, Nukes wont go off if dropped without first fully arming it, and unless the virus had a means of arming the nuke it never would have blown. That to me was a gimme a break moment.
I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.

Possum Lodge Member 2505162435
Post Reply