Sir/Ma'am in Trek and nBSG

[CaptJodan]

In both Trek and nBSG, it is conventional to address females of a higher rank as "sir" rather than "ma'am". Was there a military convention for this in the past or now? Is there a reason why "sir" would be used instead of "ma'am"? This has bothered me for a while, and I haven't found a great answer. Any thoughts?

[Peptuck]

"Ma'am" is the correct form of address when speaking to a superior commissioned female officer, at least in my experience. nBSG and Trek got it wrong because either they didn't do the basic research or are trying to do something different.

[DrStrangelove]

yeah they're a bit weird. i was corrected in basic training the first time i addressed a female officer as sir instead of ma'am

[Invictus ChiKen]

yeah they're a bit weird. i was corrected in basic training the first time i addressed a female officer as sir instead of ma'am

I hope not to harshly.

In Star Trek I know many female officers get pissed if you call them ma'am

[Ford Prefect]

If I had to guess, and I have to guess, it'd be some sort of subtle* social commentary on gender segregation. In essence, it's trying to convey that in the future, no distinction will be made between male and female officers.

*

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

In nBSG, it's intentional. It's half the point of sci fi to "break the rules" and make oblique social commentary in that manner, and that's exactly what nBSG is doing. Why differentiate between a male officer and a female officer? They are still your superior and a commissioned officer either way, and are addressed as such. Maybe it's just me, but I've always felt that "ma'am" carried this niggling little patronizing connotation, even if not really intentional.

Furthermore, in English, masculine pronouns are dominant (as they are in French, and feminine pronouns are in German IIRC). "He," "his," etc., are all gender-neutral words when used in the proper context, so an argument can easily be made for "sir" as well.

Finally, just because modern militaries do it now doesn't mean it's the "right" way to do it. We are talking about the same militaries which frequently bar women from any active combat duty.

[DrStrangelove]

yeah they're a bit weird. i was corrected in basic training the first time i addressed a female officer as sir instead of ma'am

I hope not to harshly.

In Star Trek I know many female officers get pissed if you call them ma'am

no, not too bad i just got chewed out by a female sergeant that happened to be nearby, and made to see the error in my ways

[Gandalf]

I always imagined that in Trek they did it because of simplicity.

There's at least one androgynous species (J'naii), and Species 8472 apparently have five genders. What would you do then, invent new terms?

[CaptJodan]

I always imagined that in Trek they did it because of simplicity.

There's at least one androgynous species (J'naii), and Species 8472 apparently have five genders. What would you do then, invent new terms?

Doesn't really work for nBSG, but that makes a lot of sense for Trek. If you anticipate meeting species with less or more than two sexes, a single umbrella term would be easier. Never thought of that.

Maybe it's just me, but I've always felt that "ma'am" carried this niggling little patronizing connotation, even if not really intentional.

I've heard this elsewhere, and I don't really understand it. To me, I always thought bringing the term "ma'am" up to the level of "sir" would strengthen, not weaken the term, putting it on equal footing. But since I'm not military, I didn't know if there is some kind of underlying "She's a ma'am so we don't have to listen as closely" type of thing.

Some of my more recent studies in rhetorical theory have it that feminists don't like terms which suggest maleness. Mailman, fireman, policeman, etc. I thought it was women who wanted that differentiation, so it always seemed like Trek and nBSG were going backwards socially, at least in terms of what your typical feminist might want to be called.

[starslayer]

and feminine pronouns are in German IIRC

Just a minor nitpick: German actually has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter (der, die, das). The default is das, although I don't know how German troopers address their superiors.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Remember, ma'am as in "ham", not "farm".

[DPDarkPrimus]

"Ma'rm"?

[CaptainChewbacca]

"Ma'rm"?

Only if its Trip Tucker and a female captain.

[Adrian Laguna]

I've always thought the English language fucked-up when it dropped the pre-fix from "man" to mean a male. It used to be that male person was "werman", a female female person "wifman", and a person "man". In that way the words "policeman" or "hatchetman" would be gender neutral.

[RedImperator]

I think it's likely that the writers of both series have just decided that in their universes, "sir" is a gender-neutral term and no distinction is made between male and female superiors. Considering that Trek is overtly in favor of gender equality, and nBSG features a society with no apparent gender biases, it's not that surprising. I did the same thing in HI; female officers are addressed as "sir" by their subordinates on American and Chinese ships, both societies where gender equality is officially valued (though for different historical and philosophical reasons).

[Patrick Ogaard]

and feminine pronouns are in German IIRC

Just a minor nitpick: German actually has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter (der, die, das). The default is das, although I don't know how German troopers address their superiors.

Herr (Rank) if male, Frau (Rank) if female.

So...Herr Kapitänleutnant or Herr KaLeu if addressing a male naval lieutenant, Frau Kapitänleutnant or Frau KaLeu if the naval lieutenant is female.

[Kuja]

Actually, the reason behind female Trek officers being referred to as "sir" started out because of a mistake. In Wrath of Khan, Saavik was bounced back and forth between female and male in the preliminary scripts and when they finally settled on Kristie Ally, someone forgot to update Kirk's Koboyashi line:

"Prayer, Mr. Saavik. Klingons don't take prisoners."

The mix-up wasn't discovered until too late and so the writers decided to just run with it. In-universe I think it's passed off as an Academy tradition.