WH40k what if

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2008-09-04 08:55am

Ok question for those here that knows more about this universe I was wondering.

1. What would have happened had the Emperor not held back in his battle with Horus and had killed him right off bat during the fight?

2. What if Horus had survived but was driven off taking with him the traitors? So you have the Emperor now on the golden throne but Horus hiding in the Eye.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2008-09-04 09:28am

1. The assumption that the Chaos gods would "break the connection" in time is a likely one, so let's make that. (They were fuelling Horus during the fight and almost were destroyed by the Emperor).
The Chaos fleet is utterly demoralized, The Emperor would likely destroy Horus's body (And Abaddon if the twat is foolish enough to come along before they leave) before leaving.
In the aftermath - Unsure. The Emperor would be demoralized, and the Imperium weakened, but he could reform and prevent the "rot" that later set in, perhaps leading the counter-charge against the fleeing Chaos forces before they retreat to the eye.
As for the Astronomicon - it would probably be unnecessary with the emperor not needing to keep it running while physically dead and in the Chaos god's home turf (the warp), and he could keep "generating" it himself, or perhaps construct some artificial aid.

2. Do you assume Horus as still corrupted and/or possessed by the Chaos gods?
He was "Freed" from their possesion (and saw /understood what he had done) when they fleed from their connection to his soul when the Emperor "Struck back" and Horus regretted everything that he had done, he was destroyed after becoming a "good guy" again.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2008-09-04 09:33am

DEATH wrote:1. The assumption that the Chaos gods would "break the connection" in time is a likely one, so let's make that. (They were fuelling Horus during the fight and almost were destroyed by the Emperor).
The Chaos fleet is utterly demoralized, The Emperor would likely destroy Horus's body (And Abaddon if the twat is foolish enough to come along before they leave) before leaving.
In the aftermath - Unsure. The Emperor would be demoralized, and the Imperium weakened, but he could reform and prevent the "rot" that later set in, perhaps leading the counter-charge against the fleeing Chaos forces before they retreat to the eye.
As for the Astronomicon - it would probably be unnecessary with the emperor not needing to keep it running while physically dead and in the Chaos god's home turf (the warp), and he could keep "generating" it himself, or perhaps construct some artificial aid.

2. Do you assume Horus as still corrupted and/or possessed by the Chaos gods?
He was "Freed" from their possesion (and saw /understood what he had done) when they fleed from their connection to his soul when the Emperor "Struck back" and Horus regretted everything that he had done, he was destroyed after becoming a "good guy" again.

Hum lets split number 2 into two sperate ones.
1. Horus remains Chaos contolled for a some time but might brake away someday.

2. The act of him seeing his father dead at his own hands instantly breaks the hold.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2008-09-04 02:02pm

dragon wrote:1. Horus remains Chaos contolled for a some time but might brake away someday.

Horus is unlikely to break free from Chaos, as in killing his father, he's burned up the only bridge that would welcome him back on the side of "good." This doesn't rule out the possibility he won't tell the Chaos gods, "Fuck off!" if he somehow becomes one of them (Horus, Daemon God of Madness, maybe?), just that he won't go, "I was wrong to turn to Chaos."

2. The act of him seeing his father dead at his own hands instantly breaks the hold.

He'd probably commit suicide to attone for his sins. Leadership of the Imperium falls upon... probably Roboute Guilliman.

As for the surviving Chaos Space Marines, some might follow Horus' example and commit seppuku. I expect Abbadon to fight the surviving Primarchs for leadership of the Chaos Space Marines, and die like the bitch he is; then the Primarchs-turned-daemon princes will be too busy fighting each other to seriously threaten the Imperium.

Of course, when the Necrons and the Tyrannids arrive, things will be VERY BAD for the Imperium.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2008-09-04 02:43pm

Legion and the precognitive bunch of aliens within predicted that Victory for Horus would result in Horus annihilating humanity due to going even more nuts after killing Daddy.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2008-09-04 06:22pm

Sidewinder wrote: He'd probably commit suicide to attone for his sins. Leadership of the Imperium falls upon... probably Roboute Guilliman.

Why is that exactly? Malcador the Sigillite was pretty much next in line to run the Imperium, being the First Lord of Terra and basically running the Imperium while the Emperor fucked around in his basement. Likely Guilliman does what he did in the regular timeline, create the Codex Astartes and runs the military.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2008-09-04 07:48pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Sidewinder wrote: He'd probably commit suicide to attone for his sins. Leadership of the Imperium falls upon... probably Roboute Guilliman.
Why is that exactly? Malcador the Sigillite was pretty much next in line to run the Imperium, being the First Lord of Terra and basically running the Imperium while the Emperor fucked around in his basement. Likely Guilliman does what he did in the regular timeline, create the Codex Astartes and runs the military.

Depends on if the office of Warmaster is kept or not. If it's downgraded or effectively abolished as in canon, then yes Malcador stands to become very powerful. I doubt he could run the Imperium single handed but certainly with the rest of the ruling council.

Now if the office of Warmaster is kept, then Dorn and Papa Smurf have some words. Personally, I'd sooner bet on Dorn for warmaster and prime leader if only because his men control the Palace and to a large extent Terra.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2008-09-04 07:59pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Depends on if the office of Warmaster is kept or not. If it's downgraded or effectively abolished as in canon, then yes Malcador stands to become very powerful. I doubt he could run the Imperium single handed but certainly with the rest of the ruling council.

Now if the office of Warmaster is kept, then Dorn and Papa Smurf have some words. Personally, I'd sooner bet on Dorn for warmaster and prime leader if only because his men control the Palace and to a large extent Terra.

I'm a little vague on where Warmaster ranks in the scheme of things. Before the HH series I though it was #2 after the GEoM but Horus Rising suggests that he is starting to rank under the Council of Terra.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2008-09-05 12:49am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Sidewinder wrote: He'd probably commit suicide to attone for his sins. Leadership of the Imperium falls upon... probably Roboute Guilliman.
Why is that exactly? Malcador the Sigillite was pretty much next in line to run the Imperium, being the First Lord of Terra and basically running the Imperium while the Emperor fucked around in his basement.

From the info I've seen (and I admit Wikipedia and The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions are poor sources), Malcador agreed to take the Emperor's place on the Golden Throne so the Emperor could board Horus' ship and bring an end to the siege; a psyker MUST occupy the Throne to prevent daemons from using the as a portal from which they can invade Earth, as the Emperor designed it as a means with which Man may colonize the Eldar Webway. When the Emperor asked Malcador to take his place on the Golden Throne, he warned Malcador this would be a death sentence; indeed, Malcador's body simply disintegrated when the Techpriests removed it from the Throne so the Emperor could be placed there.

This means Malcador wouldn't be going anywhere if Horus successfully killed the Emperor, as moving from the Golden Throne meant death, followed by daemons rushing through the portal and fucking up Earth.

Likely Guilliman does what he did in the regular timeline, create the Codex Astartes and runs the military.

Without the Emperor, the High Lords of Terra need a figurehead through which they may exercise authority in his (or her) name. If Guilliman turns down that position, they'd probably ask Dorn.

Malcador might be able to serve the High Lords the way the Ascended Emperor does in the canon universe, i.e., the High Lords using his name to legitimize their orders and justify their authority, but I think someone who can actually appear in public and say, "I'm the leader of the Imperium and I approve [the High Lords'] message," would better suit their purposes.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2008-09-05 03:22am

Sidewinder wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:
Sidewinder wrote: He'd probably commit suicide to attone for his sins. Leadership of the Imperium falls upon... probably Roboute Guilliman.
Why is that exactly? Malcador the Sigillite was pretty much next in line to run the Imperium, being the First Lord of Terra and basically running the Imperium while the Emperor fucked around in his basement.
From the info I've seen (and I admit Wikipedia and The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions are poor sources), Malcador agreed to take the Emperor's place on the Golden Throne so the Emperor could board Horus' ship and bring an end to the siege; a psyker MUST occupy the Throne to prevent daemons from using the as a portal from which they can invade Earth, as the Emperor designed it as a means with which Man may colonize the Eldar Webway. When the Emperor asked Malcador to take his place on the Golden Throne, he warned Malcador this would be a death sentence; indeed, Malcador's body simply disintegrated when the Techpriests removed it from the Throne so the Emperor could be placed there.

This means Malcador wouldn't be going anywhere if Horus successfully killed the Emperor, as moving from the Golden Throne meant death, followed by daemons rushing through the portal and fucking up Earth.
Likely Guilliman does what he did in the regular timeline, create the Codex Astartes and runs the military.
Without the Emperor, the High Lords of Terra need a figurehead through which they may exercise authority in his (or her) name. If Guilliman turns down that position, they'd probably ask Dorn.

Malcador might be able to serve the High Lords the way the Ascended Emperor does in the canon universe, i.e., the High Lords using his name to legitimize their orders and justify their authority, but I think someone who can actually appear in public and say, "I'm the leader of the Imperium and I approve [the High Lords'] message," would better suit their purposes.

Colonize the webway, isn't that a bad idea?

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2008-09-05 10:43am

It was a lot better than using the warp proper. However, that plan fell apart even before Horus attacked Terra because Magnus, in the act of sending his warning to the Emperor, also destroyed the protective wards in place and destablized the Golden Throne webway gate, turning it into an open portal to the warp.

Block · Post by **Block** » 2008-09-05 11:19am

white_rabbit wrote:Legion and the precognitive bunch of aliens within predicted that Victory for Horus would result in Horus annihilating humanity due to going even more nuts after killing Daddy.

Yes, but the precogs in Legion said that if Alpha Legion joined Horus, victory was pretty much 100% certain, and that humanity would self destruct. They were clearly wrong about that, so it's quite possible that if Alpha legion hadn't betrayed the Emperor, Horus dies without wounding the Emperor.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-09-05 11:32am

Another point worth considering; The Emperor was very close to figuring out the secrets of the webway. If he perfects that, then the Imperium never needs to risk using the warp for travel.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2008-09-05 02:46pm

What if Sanguinus gave into fury and killed Horus, then tasting temptation of the Bloodgod, he became all I don't want to fight least I succumb?

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2008-09-06 08:44am

Block wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:Legion and the precognitive bunch of aliens within predicted that Victory for Horus would result in Horus annihilating humanity due to going even more nuts after killing Daddy.
Yes, but the precogs in Legion said that if Alpha Legion joined Horus, victory was pretty much 100% certain, and that humanity would self destruct. They were clearly wrong about that, so it's quite possible that if Alpha legion hadn't betrayed the Emperor, Horus dies without wounding the Emperor.

Basically it's been shown that the Cabal's precognitive visions are not infallible.

It's even a possibility that the vision that they showed to Alpharius was a trick of Tzeench, or something far out like that.

Jaevric · Post by **Jaevric** » 2008-09-06 08:54am

Cykeisme wrote:It's even a possibility that the vision that they showed to Alpharius was a trick of Tzeench, or something far out like that.

My thought was that the aliens themselves set up the false vision. After all, which is more of a threat to the xeno civilizations, a united humanity behind the Emperor, the forces of Chaos ascendant behind Horus, or a humanity trapped in an ongoing internal conflict with heretics as well as external warfare with the occasional Black Crusade?

If the Alpha Legion had sided with the Emperor, Horus may have been defeated outright and the Imperium would have (eventually) recovered and gone back to the Crusades. Saying "if Horus wins he'll wipe out humanity" is a great theory and all, but by the end Horus was basically the puppet of the Chaos Gods from what I understand and I don't think they were interested in merey slaughtering everyone human. The Ruinous Powers want worshippers not corpses (Well, Khorne wants worshippers AND corpses).

It's in the best interests of the various alien races for humanity to be thoroughly distracted, and civil wars are distracting as hell, particularly ones that last for 10,000 years.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2008-09-06 09:11am

How do we know that the Alpha legion would have been such a "Tipping point"?
They didn't have the psyker power and potency of Magnus and his Sons (Not to mention Magnus's ability to serve as a replacement for the emperor on the throne), and they didn't inflict the sheer damage the Iron warriors did with their fortified death-grinder of a fort. Heck, they didn't even kill any other Primarch's (Well, their primarch did not), or do anything nifty at the siege of Terra, or have the potential to fuck the Heresy up early on like Fulgrim had.