I'm not saying they wouldn't be able to assimilate it, it's just highly unlikely that with the fleet above (SSD and attendant vessels) It would escape destruction.Alyeska wrote:Give me proof that Replicators can't upgrade an ISD. Every single account of Replicators taking over a ship has them upgrading every system beyond its original capabilities.Coaan wrote:Show me the numbers that shows exactly how much faster a 'captured' ISD would move atAlyeska wrote: You don't stay in range with something that is much faster then yourself.
Replicators vs. the Empire
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NecronLord
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"Individual blocks are Keron Based" AKA what we know about the replicators.
The MO of the replicators when they first board an enemy vessel is to disable any sensors able to detect them. Next they take control of the central computers and command systems, they then analyse navigational data and select whatever target will offer the most consumable technology with the least effective resistance. They also analyse and incorparate any technology that is valuable to them into their own, while setting a course for their targets. The replicators will not attack the crew, unless threatened though eventually the replicators will consume the life support systems.
The most likely course of action for the replicators in this scenario, assuming one hundred replicators, and all the T-1000 replicators start off in an analysis area would be to seal themselves into the room, kill the guards (and probably the technicians, who will likely be regarded as a threat) and attempt to take control of the main computer systems. It is unlikely that either the sensors or the computer can be accessed throughly, although all ISDs have an acess function designed to allow the emperor or his agents to take control of the ship, it may be possible for them to acess this, depending on the specific nature of the system. The uber replicators will most likely then attempt to access the central computer manually, using turbolift shafts for movement around the ship.
All now depends on the level and effectiveness of the physical defenses of the computer core. I would expect at least one to three uber replicators to be destroyed by the guards using heavy weapons (remember the ISD commander still has access to internal sensors) If the guards are more effective than that and manage to destroy all uber-replicators then they will probably regain control of the ship. If however they are not, then the replicators will gain access to computer core, whereupon they will disable the sensors capable of locating them, and probably de-pressurise the sections of the ship around the core. Though this will not prevent the inevitble stormtrooper assault, the effectiveness will be weakened considerably. They would also attempt to seal the armoury, though the localised nature of subsystems aboard imperial vessels would mean any officer with decent rank cylinders could probably over-ride this. The replicators will then most likely activate the hyperdrive or at least raise the shields to prevent any communications leaving the ship, although it may be to late by this time.
If they take control of the ship sucessfully the replicators will begin consuming imperial factory planets, at which point they will incorparate Imperial sheilds and weaponry and Asgard hyperdrive and transporters onto their new ships (yes they build their own ships, see unnatural selection, and enemies). (incidentally hypernet communications are inferior to the asgard version, but that is irrelevant)
The MO of the replicators when they first board an enemy vessel is to disable any sensors able to detect them. Next they take control of the central computers and command systems, they then analyse navigational data and select whatever target will offer the most consumable technology with the least effective resistance. They also analyse and incorparate any technology that is valuable to them into their own, while setting a course for their targets. The replicators will not attack the crew, unless threatened though eventually the replicators will consume the life support systems.
The most likely course of action for the replicators in this scenario, assuming one hundred replicators, and all the T-1000 replicators start off in an analysis area would be to seal themselves into the room, kill the guards (and probably the technicians, who will likely be regarded as a threat) and attempt to take control of the main computer systems. It is unlikely that either the sensors or the computer can be accessed throughly, although all ISDs have an acess function designed to allow the emperor or his agents to take control of the ship, it may be possible for them to acess this, depending on the specific nature of the system. The uber replicators will most likely then attempt to access the central computer manually, using turbolift shafts for movement around the ship.
All now depends on the level and effectiveness of the physical defenses of the computer core. I would expect at least one to three uber replicators to be destroyed by the guards using heavy weapons (remember the ISD commander still has access to internal sensors) If the guards are more effective than that and manage to destroy all uber-replicators then they will probably regain control of the ship. If however they are not, then the replicators will gain access to computer core, whereupon they will disable the sensors capable of locating them, and probably de-pressurise the sections of the ship around the core. Though this will not prevent the inevitble stormtrooper assault, the effectiveness will be weakened considerably. They would also attempt to seal the armoury, though the localised nature of subsystems aboard imperial vessels would mean any officer with decent rank cylinders could probably over-ride this. The replicators will then most likely activate the hyperdrive or at least raise the shields to prevent any communications leaving the ship, although it may be to late by this time.
If they take control of the ship sucessfully the replicators will begin consuming imperial factory planets, at which point they will incorparate Imperial sheilds and weaponry and Asgard hyperdrive and transporters onto their new ships (yes they build their own ships, see unnatural selection, and enemies). (incidentally hypernet communications are inferior to the asgard version, but that is irrelevant)
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they are resistant. we've gathered that but like everything, it has a saturation point where that resistance will fail...it's just pumping enough energy into the equasionAlyeska wrote:They are resistant to energy to the point that an energy weapon capable of vaporizing an armored humanoid in three shots has absolutely no impact on a replicator. Jaffa Staff weapons which have high levels of thermal capabilities cause no harm either.Coaan wrote:It depends on the power difference between those jaffa sticks and blasters and etc etc, they ay just be highly resistant to energy, not immuneAlyeska wrote: Considering that there is thermal and vaporizing weapons in SG-1 and they do absolutely nothing to Replicators, I don't see blasters harming them at all.
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Embracer Of Darkness
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NecronLord
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They lack any propulsive ability on their own, at least to my knowlage. They would fall towards the system star. Maybe they might end up on a planet in sufficient numbers to form a replicatable unit, but it's really unlikely.Embracer Of Darkness wrote:What about my "ship explodes, replicators fly out into space in random directions" idea?
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Patrick Ogaard
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The zat, the handgun that fires nasty bolts of electrical energy, does not really appear to have quite as much power as is often assumed.
The effect of one shot from the gun is about equivalent to an overpowered taser with actual amperage. That is, the target is immediately immobilized and in pain, and will fall unconscious for a few minutes to a few hours if appropriate to the plot.
A second shot kills the target, which is not unreasonable for taking two hits from a weapon apparently based on directed bolts of electricity. There does have to be some kind of time limit to the "two hits kill" rule, though, as otherwise a zat would automatically kill someone who had been stunned by a zat even once, years ago.
The disintegration effect produced by a third hit to the same humanoid target is rather harder to explain. It appears to be based on a concept similar to standard Star Trek weapons. (The technobabble explanation might be something like the residual EM load of the two prior discharges, combined with the third discharge, producing a nadion-based neutrino conversion cascade.)
Since the zat appears to be based on conventional electricity, with only a few superscience twists, there is a good reason why the replicators should be resistant to zat fire: insulation. Even with their advanced technobabble internal circuitry and power systems, replicators almost certainly have to be insulated against electromagnetic effects. Normal replicators are basically constructed like Lego monsters, each little block linking up to and interfacing with adjoining blocks. It is reasonable to assume that poor insulation of the replicator component blocks would have bad effects on the blocks. A properly linked array of blocks should act as a faraday cage, more or less harmlessly directing the damaging current around the periphery of the replicator's body. That way, the individual blocks are protected against the electrical effects, and there would be no way for the critical charge to build up that would allow disintegration of the replicators.
As for the staff weapon, the overall damaging effect is approximately equivalent to an M14 rifle or similar 7.62 mm weapon. During the episode in which one of the minor system lord types poses as the Jaffa prophet and freedom fighter, a little shooting match is staged between Major Carter using a P90 and a Jaffa marksman using a staff weapon. The staff weapon manages to punch a scorched, roughly half-inch diameter hole in a suspended log not more than two feet thick, if that. This, minus the minor scorching, is well within the capabilities of an M14, G3 or FN FAL battle rifle. The staff weapon does have two advantages (partially offsetting its relatively low rate of fire and horrendous accuracy): an apparently huge long term energy reserve that may allow for hundreds or even thousands of shots, and a lack of ricochets that is potentially advantageous when fighting indoors or on starships.
The staff weapon's bolt appears to consist of a magnetically accelerated, superheated jet of ionized gas. Staff weapons have virtually no visible recoil, the bolts are not particularly fast, and the bolt itself appears to carry very little kinetic energy, certainly no more than a service pistol bullet.
The kinetic energy of a staff weapon bolt is unlikely to overcome the binding forces of one of the lobster-sized replicator units, the heat transfer from bolt to replicator is unlikely to have any major effect unless the replicator is made from ordinary materials (instead of the more durable superscience materials they scrounge from their technologically advanced victims), and the shock effect of the charged bolt (if any) is obviously not nearly as powerful as that of a zat.
All of this makes the staff weapon and the zat nearly useless in fighting replicators. Replicators constructed of advanced materials are quite capable of shrugging off repeated zat and staff weapon attacks (as they did when Apophis's bodyguard force was gruesomely killed in a galaxy far, far away). The shots of the Jaffa weapons did rock the replicators back, spark effects playing across their surfaces, but the Jaffa were quickly overrun by superior numbers. Then came the off-screen screaming (and thoughts of replicator claws and the ubiquitous replicator acid sprayers).
Military grade Star Wars small arms, starting at the oversized handguns used by the crew of the Tantive IV and ending with the huge blaster rifles carried by Old Republic clonetroopers and by Imperial stormtroopers, are entirely different animals. They are brute force weapons designed to overcome highly resistant body armor and combat droid plating. One well-placed shot from Jango Fett's custom blaster pistol was enough to drop an enraged reek, a beast somewhat larger than a rhinoceros, dead in its tracks.
The standard lobster-sized replicator units are unlikely to be able to stand up to more than one shot from an E-11. The larger, nearly human-sized replicator units might require a shot from a heavy blaster rifle for a one-shot kill. The humanoid, nanobot-based replicators I have not yet seen.
The modularity of the replicators would be their essential vulnerability. The blaster bolt just has to overcome the protection of individual blocks and make those blocks vaporize or at least blast apart violently. That explosive effect then disrupts the matrix of the blocks, disrupting the coherence of the structure. Unless the replicators can generate shields or fit themselves with sheets of armor plating, the most protection that a replicator can have against an attack is however much armor and structural durability the replicators can pack into each individual block. An E-11 bolt into the midst of a swarm of lobster-sized replicators should itself be enough to send evil little cyber-Legos flying, though the individual blocks would likely remain viable.
Star Wars civilian blaster handguns would likely not be as effective, each individual shot crisping blocks along the path of the blaster bolt.
On the idea of replicators simply floating about and randomly infecting worlds and ships, that depends on how far the replicators are from suitable targets, how fast the replicators are moving, in which direction, and how resistant the modules are to spending years, centuries, millenia or longer exposed to cosmic rays, solar winds, temperatures approaching absolute zero, and temperatures in the hundreds of degrees Celsius. In the Star Wars universe, it also depends on how tasty mynocks, stone mites and conduit worms find replicators to be.
The ultimate shipboard weapon against replicators might, however, prove to be the following: mouse droids with thermal detonators. The mouse droids simply trundle into an area controlled by replicators and, at the first sign of trouble, the automatic security meltdown of the mouse droid's processors triggers the detonator.
Another possible option is to send in droids, such as astromech units, equipped with tactical jammers. The replicators obviously rely on a kind of wireless modem system to coordinate their activities beyond the level of individual units. A tactical jammer, possibly cannibalized from a gunboat or fighter and running on relatively low power, should be adequate to locally disrupt the network. The SG-1 universe relies extensively on subspace effects, which works very much like Star Trek subspace (not to mention hyperspace effects very much like those of Star Wars), and the Star Wars universe has subspace-based sensors and commo systems. Thus, even if the replicators used subspace communications to coordinate their actions, SW jamming should be able to locally disrupt that network.
Of course, that subspace jamming tactic should also work against Borg drones and, for that matter, a large Star Wars capital ship, like an ISD, should be able to overpower a Borg cube's internal subspace communications. The power levels available to an ISD are patently so much greater than those available to a cube that targeted brute force jamming should be quite capable of rendering an individual cube completely helpless. If the subspace jamming effects were capable of "grounding out" in the internal subspace transceivers of drones, that level of jamming might well fry all the drones in the cube.
Actually, to get completely off topic, since ST warp drives require the generation of a warp field that is actually a subspace field, an ISD's onboard subspace jamming capabilities might themselves be adequate to render a Trek starship dead in the water. Trek shields are also, based on references in episodes from various of the Trek series, largely subspace manifestations, so that a suitably strong subspace jamming effect could disrupt a Trek ship's shields as well (though that's where burden of proof rears its ugly head).
The effect of one shot from the gun is about equivalent to an overpowered taser with actual amperage. That is, the target is immediately immobilized and in pain, and will fall unconscious for a few minutes to a few hours if appropriate to the plot.
A second shot kills the target, which is not unreasonable for taking two hits from a weapon apparently based on directed bolts of electricity. There does have to be some kind of time limit to the "two hits kill" rule, though, as otherwise a zat would automatically kill someone who had been stunned by a zat even once, years ago.
The disintegration effect produced by a third hit to the same humanoid target is rather harder to explain. It appears to be based on a concept similar to standard Star Trek weapons. (The technobabble explanation might be something like the residual EM load of the two prior discharges, combined with the third discharge, producing a nadion-based neutrino conversion cascade.)
Since the zat appears to be based on conventional electricity, with only a few superscience twists, there is a good reason why the replicators should be resistant to zat fire: insulation. Even with their advanced technobabble internal circuitry and power systems, replicators almost certainly have to be insulated against electromagnetic effects. Normal replicators are basically constructed like Lego monsters, each little block linking up to and interfacing with adjoining blocks. It is reasonable to assume that poor insulation of the replicator component blocks would have bad effects on the blocks. A properly linked array of blocks should act as a faraday cage, more or less harmlessly directing the damaging current around the periphery of the replicator's body. That way, the individual blocks are protected against the electrical effects, and there would be no way for the critical charge to build up that would allow disintegration of the replicators.
As for the staff weapon, the overall damaging effect is approximately equivalent to an M14 rifle or similar 7.62 mm weapon. During the episode in which one of the minor system lord types poses as the Jaffa prophet and freedom fighter, a little shooting match is staged between Major Carter using a P90 and a Jaffa marksman using a staff weapon. The staff weapon manages to punch a scorched, roughly half-inch diameter hole in a suspended log not more than two feet thick, if that. This, minus the minor scorching, is well within the capabilities of an M14, G3 or FN FAL battle rifle. The staff weapon does have two advantages (partially offsetting its relatively low rate of fire and horrendous accuracy): an apparently huge long term energy reserve that may allow for hundreds or even thousands of shots, and a lack of ricochets that is potentially advantageous when fighting indoors or on starships.
The staff weapon's bolt appears to consist of a magnetically accelerated, superheated jet of ionized gas. Staff weapons have virtually no visible recoil, the bolts are not particularly fast, and the bolt itself appears to carry very little kinetic energy, certainly no more than a service pistol bullet.
The kinetic energy of a staff weapon bolt is unlikely to overcome the binding forces of one of the lobster-sized replicator units, the heat transfer from bolt to replicator is unlikely to have any major effect unless the replicator is made from ordinary materials (instead of the more durable superscience materials they scrounge from their technologically advanced victims), and the shock effect of the charged bolt (if any) is obviously not nearly as powerful as that of a zat.
All of this makes the staff weapon and the zat nearly useless in fighting replicators. Replicators constructed of advanced materials are quite capable of shrugging off repeated zat and staff weapon attacks (as they did when Apophis's bodyguard force was gruesomely killed in a galaxy far, far away). The shots of the Jaffa weapons did rock the replicators back, spark effects playing across their surfaces, but the Jaffa were quickly overrun by superior numbers. Then came the off-screen screaming (and thoughts of replicator claws and the ubiquitous replicator acid sprayers).
Military grade Star Wars small arms, starting at the oversized handguns used by the crew of the Tantive IV and ending with the huge blaster rifles carried by Old Republic clonetroopers and by Imperial stormtroopers, are entirely different animals. They are brute force weapons designed to overcome highly resistant body armor and combat droid plating. One well-placed shot from Jango Fett's custom blaster pistol was enough to drop an enraged reek, a beast somewhat larger than a rhinoceros, dead in its tracks.
The standard lobster-sized replicator units are unlikely to be able to stand up to more than one shot from an E-11. The larger, nearly human-sized replicator units might require a shot from a heavy blaster rifle for a one-shot kill. The humanoid, nanobot-based replicators I have not yet seen.
The modularity of the replicators would be their essential vulnerability. The blaster bolt just has to overcome the protection of individual blocks and make those blocks vaporize or at least blast apart violently. That explosive effect then disrupts the matrix of the blocks, disrupting the coherence of the structure. Unless the replicators can generate shields or fit themselves with sheets of armor plating, the most protection that a replicator can have against an attack is however much armor and structural durability the replicators can pack into each individual block. An E-11 bolt into the midst of a swarm of lobster-sized replicators should itself be enough to send evil little cyber-Legos flying, though the individual blocks would likely remain viable.
Star Wars civilian blaster handguns would likely not be as effective, each individual shot crisping blocks along the path of the blaster bolt.
On the idea of replicators simply floating about and randomly infecting worlds and ships, that depends on how far the replicators are from suitable targets, how fast the replicators are moving, in which direction, and how resistant the modules are to spending years, centuries, millenia or longer exposed to cosmic rays, solar winds, temperatures approaching absolute zero, and temperatures in the hundreds of degrees Celsius. In the Star Wars universe, it also depends on how tasty mynocks, stone mites and conduit worms find replicators to be.
The ultimate shipboard weapon against replicators might, however, prove to be the following: mouse droids with thermal detonators. The mouse droids simply trundle into an area controlled by replicators and, at the first sign of trouble, the automatic security meltdown of the mouse droid's processors triggers the detonator.
Another possible option is to send in droids, such as astromech units, equipped with tactical jammers. The replicators obviously rely on a kind of wireless modem system to coordinate their activities beyond the level of individual units. A tactical jammer, possibly cannibalized from a gunboat or fighter and running on relatively low power, should be adequate to locally disrupt the network. The SG-1 universe relies extensively on subspace effects, which works very much like Star Trek subspace (not to mention hyperspace effects very much like those of Star Wars), and the Star Wars universe has subspace-based sensors and commo systems. Thus, even if the replicators used subspace communications to coordinate their actions, SW jamming should be able to locally disrupt that network.
Of course, that subspace jamming tactic should also work against Borg drones and, for that matter, a large Star Wars capital ship, like an ISD, should be able to overpower a Borg cube's internal subspace communications. The power levels available to an ISD are patently so much greater than those available to a cube that targeted brute force jamming should be quite capable of rendering an individual cube completely helpless. If the subspace jamming effects were capable of "grounding out" in the internal subspace transceivers of drones, that level of jamming might well fry all the drones in the cube.
Actually, to get completely off topic, since ST warp drives require the generation of a warp field that is actually a subspace field, an ISD's onboard subspace jamming capabilities might themselves be adequate to render a Trek starship dead in the water. Trek shields are also, based on references in episodes from various of the Trek series, largely subspace manifestations, so that a suitably strong subspace jamming effect could disrupt a Trek ship's shields as well (though that's where burden of proof rears its ugly head).
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Darth Garden Gnome
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Have you seen ISDs go up in ROTJ, specifically the one that dies right before the Executor. Those things go up really viloently. So it appears hypermatter reactor detonation would quite easily fry any and all replicators on board a ship. In fact exploding SSDs have killed ISDs before! So even scaling down to an ISD I doubt a cap-ship killer explosion like that wouldn'ty vape the littiel buggers.Embracer Of Darkness wrote:What about my "ship explodes, replicators fly out into space in random directions" idea?
Think the Death Star also, since it used hypermatter too. No survivors there....
So no, a self-desructing ISD will leave no replicator survivors.
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AdmiralKanos
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I didn't say you were a Trekkie. I mentioned the Federation because they are the ONLY sci-fi entity I know of which abandons ships without destroying them. Everyone else would prefer they don't fall into enemy hands.Embracer Of Darkness wrote:A.) The Federation? Who mentioned them? I'm not some single-minded TrekkieDarth Wong wrote:Step 3 is the final step, since the Empire is not the Federation. They don't abandon ships in a fully-functional state. They'll blow the ship before they abandon it.
B.) Could this not take us straight to step six?
You seem to be assuming that they would survive the blast. Thermodynamics says no. There's only so much heat that a small object can absorb before it's plasma. That's the same problem with energy weapons: a weapon which pumps out a large amount of brute-force energy will simply overwhelm a replicator.I'm not just nitpicking, is this a possibility?Embracer Of Darkness wrote:6.) Even if The Empire is successful in blowing that ship to peices (and the replicators inside) the replicators have a good chance of recombining in space... Uh oh, you now have alot of replicators made out of Empire materials floating through space in random directions... Congratulations, you have created a "replicator bomb".
For a time, I considered sparing your wretched little planet Cybertron.
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
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But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
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Slartibartfast
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The submarine wasn't improved in any way.Alyeska wrote:Every single time Replicators got a hold of a ship they always improved the ship by several magnitudes. They took Asgard ships and with three Replicator/Asgard ships destroyed 5 Asgard ships and took no damage. They took a Goa'uld hyper drive that would take 125 years to reach the Milkyway and spead that up to 125 minutes.His Divine Shadow wrote:I find this magical upgrade of any technology notion to be worse.Darth Wong wrote:*sniff sniff* I smell a "no limit" fallacy.
Given enough energy, any defense will fall. The notion of some magic-tech which is immune to any kind of energy weapon is stupid.
So the Replicators had better tech than the Asgard, does that mean they have better tech than the Empire and can therefore make the ISD more effective, or is it just an arbitrary "make stuff 100x better"?
Just because an existing technology is inefficient and can be upgraded a lot doesn't mean that technology that's been refined for 25,000+ years can be as well. There's only so much "efficiency" that you can get from stuff.
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Slartibartfast
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- Replicators made from Asgardian metal shot with shotgun: ripped to pieces, each piece intact (the metal is obviously resistant)Embracer Of Darkness wrote:I don't think anyone said they're blaster immune, but we're working from what we've seen... And we've seen them, numerous times, spontaneously reconnect and become fully functional again within a minute of being blown apart with shotguns etc. etc. I don't see how being blown apart with a blaster would be any different.DocMoriartty wrote:I doubt the replicators will be blaster immune if they are built out of that material.
- Replicators made from submarine metal: ripped to pieces, some pieces split in half. Also showed signs of corrosion from seawater.
- The second replicators were made with an inferior material AFTER the first replicators. No magic material upgrade was performed, even when the replicators had already advanced to that point.
- SW blasters fire can make holes in SW metals.
Conclusion: replicators made from SW metal can be destroyed by blaster fire, and each piece should take significant damage.
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Slartibartfast
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Ah yes, the famous three-stage vaporization. It sounds a lot like a technobabble weapon, and we all know how powerful technobabble usually is with all their physics "loopholes". If the first shot isn't powerful enough to kill you, and the third vaporizes it, it's obvious that it's not the raw power that does the damage.Alyeska wrote:They are resistant to energy to the point that an energy weapon capable of vaporizing an armored humanoid in three shots has absolutely no impact on a replicator.