Realistic alternate histories?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well in this Islmic civilization they discovered steam power in the 9th or 10 century Ad and used Iraqui +Saudi oil to power there indusytrial revolution

It's a tempting thought, but look at the Romans - They actually had primitive examples of steam engines and did nothing with them. Their labour surplus rended such a development unnecessary, and it wasn't pursued. Islamic civilization in their era knew about Hero's invention too, for that matter (And, heck, the Byzantine Emperor had a throne that was probably raised and lowered by a primitive Hero-style Steam Engine at that date), but it was irrelevant to them. There was no need to develop the technology.

[Ryoga]

Yeah, I think the GURPS AH books were kind of a hit-and-miss proposition...some of them were likely, others weren't. For those not blessed with the possession of this two-book series, here's a little recap:

Caliph: The aforementioned Islamic-fundie-technowank setting. I'm sorry, but a stifling theocracy isn't going to race through technological advancement at high speed. The revolution against the fundies, though, has interesting possibilities.

Reich-5: The traditional 'Nazis win' scenario. In this one, FDR is shot and killed by the assassin who narrowly missed him (in reality). Without the 'New Deal', America remains mired in a slow and painful struggle out of the Depression years (no help for Europe). I'll have to look at the book again, though, because I can't recall how things progress from there.

Dixie: The traditional 'Civil War' scenario. In the real world, a Confederate privateer managed to get himself in charge of a South American nation, but was deposed after he tried to nationalize the train industry (don't mess with a Robber Baron; he can hire more mercenaries than you can count ). In this scenario, though, he decides against it; the Confederacy gets a steady stream of supplies from South America, and manages to hold off long enough to get British support. A century (and two wars) later, the two nations remain locked in a bitter Cold War.

Gernsback: This is a definite 'wtf?' IRL, Nikolai Tesla was good friends with the daughter of J.P. Morgan...they might even have been more than good friends, if'n you catch my drift. In this setting, though, Tesla actually marries her, and Morgan's financial backing allows Tesla to work out many of the inventions he never built. Flash forward to the 1960s, where the 'benevolent' World Science Council governs the world. Picture a gigantic 1930s serial, and that's what this place is like.

Shikaku-Mon: I've never made much sense of this one. Someone else can explain it, if they want, because it still makes my head hurt to this day.

Ming-3: In the distant past, China sent a huge fleet of ships to explore the world. While in the real world this venture was cancelled, in Ming-3 it continued on for centuries. With large portions of Africa under Chinese control (or at least paying tributes), they turn their attention to Europe...occasional Portugese raids couldn't be tolerated forever. Anyway, things continue to get out of hand, until most of Europe is under Chinese control too. This one doesn't strike me as very plausible either.

...and there are a whole lot more I can't remember right now. *sigh*

[Typhonis 1]

China had the Compass ,printing press and gunpowder by the Middle ages if they continued to look outward uinstead of the "Revolution" where everything that Confuscious didnt talk about was discontinued it may very well have hapened

[Enforcer Talen]

I'm writing a screenplay, and maybe later a novel on a device that lets you go through alternate dimensions(histories), my question is, can ya'll provide me with some VERY realisic alternate histories?

I also need one where the nazis were able to control North America by the 1980s, and by not nuking it off the face of the Earth, if possible.

ANY alternate histories would be appreciated, and please tell me how it happened(in the real world and the alternate one).

Thank you.

fdr assassinated before becoming president. usa continues depression and follows isolationism and increased radicalism. facism gains followers. great britian falls without u.s. support. japan expands in russia - it falls under the two fascist powers. they head for usa. gurps alternate earths is good for reads like that. . . tho harry turtledove is to be read as well.

[Enforcer Talen]

coolness, someone else has read the same book. it ends with usa being the fascist poor cousin.

[Shortie]

Well in this Islmic civilization they discovered steam power in the 9th or 10 century Ad and used Iraqui +Saudi oil to power there indusytrial revolution

It's a tempting thought, but look at the Romans - They actually had primitive examples of steam engines and did nothing with them. Their labour surplus rended such a development unnecessary, and it wasn't pursued. Islamic civilization in their era knew about Hero's invention too, for that matter (And, heck, the Byzantine Emperor had a throne that was probably raised and lowered by a primitive Hero-style Steam Engine at that date), but it was irrelevant to them. There was no need to develop the technology.

IIRC the other problem was that there's a masive difference between one-off toys and truly effective steam-engines, as well as the latter needing a significant infrastructure.

Anyway, try soc.history.what-if, and search the archives there, or just ask. Some very cool timelines have been done by people there (I like Sealion Fails, to name but one). Your requested one would require so many alterations, and so much blind luck, that I can't see that world being recognisable to us by 1980.

[Darth Fanboy]

You can't have the KKK siding with the Germans because the KKK were a christian nationalist party and they actually opposed the Nazis who were anti-religion anti Amerika. There was an instance in Jew Jersey IIRC where The KKK rallied against nazi sympathizers.

[Typhonis 1]

Heres a simple one How bad would an incvasion of Japan really have been? I have heard cassuyalty estimates of 1 million and I heard they were using Purple Hearts struck for the invasion as late as the Gulf War

[Sea Skimmer]

The official numbers for US losses for operation Olympic and Coronet where about 60,000 dead out of 265,000 causalities. Though some estimates placed the death toll as high as 100,000. The half and one million dead numbers thrown around are totally bull, but those figures for overall causalities where real. But they where thought overly high, no one was sure just how much starvation would weaken the Japanese nor how the weather would play out.

Japanese losses from the two invasions and prolonged bombardment and blockade would be into the low to mid millions; much of Japan would have starved during the winter of 1945.

This assumes that only southern Kyushu and the Kanto Plain of Honshu would have to be captured and held to force Japan to surrender. It was possibul that wouldn't do it. Though the majority of the IJA would be exterminated after those operations, clearing out the rest of the island chain would easily push the causalities list by 100,000+

[Thunderfire]

You can't have the KKK siding with the Germans because the KKK were a christian nationalist party and they actually opposed the Nazis who were anti-religion anti Amerika.

Several american industrialists were pro german. Some of them even supported
the german war machine. Trucks build by Ford & GM(Opel) were vital to the
german war effort.

[Sokar]

Heres a simple one How bad would an incvasion of Japan really have been? I have heard cassuyalty estimates of 1 million and I heard they were using Purple Hearts struck for the invasion as late as the Gulf War

After the fury of the battles of both Iwo Jima and Okinawa the US High Command was viewing the whole idea of an invasion of the home islands with a dread unlike anything previous. As our best point of reference we have is the fight for Okinawa, which while not a home island, had been under Japanese dominion for so long it was considered "home turf" as far as real estate went. Approximatly 150,000 troops had dug in to the island prior to the arrival of the Pacific fleet. Out of thoes only 10,000 were taken alive, the rest fought to the DEATH even after the battle was hopelessly lost. For the Allies, primaraly Americans, the casualties were staggering , especially for the Navy , which endured almost ceaseless kamikaze attacks, resulting in 33 ships sunk (mostly destroyer picketts using their advanced radar to direct the Fleet's Fighters) 368 damaged vessels and a total of over 5,000 crewers killed. This was in addition to the 8,000 dead for the Army and Marine Divisions that assaulted the island, giving us a American body count of over 12,000 dead, added in to this were almost 36,000 wounded and 26,000 cases of battle-fatigue(shellshock).To this carnage was the horror wreacked on the Okinawan civilian population which was around 300,00 prior to the battle , but only 120,000 of which lived to see the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese propaganda had done a through job of painting the Americans as slavering monsters who would slaughter them all and many Okinawans helped in the defence of the island. Today the Battle is remembered by Okinawans as "The Storm of Steel". All this for a 480 square mile chunk of rock in the middle of the Pacific......

When plannning Operation Coronet, the invasion of Honshu and Kuyshu the two southern Islands, the seinor staff extrapolated thoes numbers and safely settled on a total casualty figure to be close to half-a-million dead, wounded, or incapaciteted. Japan still had over 4 million men under arms in 1945, almost exclusivly infantry,and over half of these were in China, but in anticipation of an American Invasion of Japan 90% plus would have been recalled to defend, along side the population of Japan which was being drilled with improvised arms to attack te beaches in human wave assaults. US planners figured this would likely mean the virtual extermination of the Japanese civilian population, who they felt would have fight even harder than the duped Okinawans, to defend the home islands. To say that the idea of feeding half a million American boys into that kind of furnace was nigh unthinkable for the American General staff. Total casualties for 3 years of war had been held to under 150,000 dead in the Pacific, the idea of losing that number in the first WEEK of fighting in Japan proper chilled their blood......

Now, the reality of it could have been quite diffrent, it would still have been a blood bath of staggering proportions but I dont think it would be as bad as thought in 1945. The situation of morale was far worse than believed within Japan. The bombing campaigns had wreaked much of Japans infrastructure and civilian moral was beginning to unravel as the magnitude of the defeats suffered all across the Pacific could no longer be hidden from the public. Add to this the growing discontent of the Emperor over the prosecution of the war and Japan may have folded after the initial landings, however your stilllikely looking at casualties rivaling thoes of Okinawa and Iwo Jima combined until that happened.

[Sokar]

You can't have the KKK siding with the Germans because the KKK were a christian nationalist party and they actually opposed the Nazis who were anti-religion anti Amerika.

Several american industrialists were pro german. Some of them even supported
the german war machine. Trucks build by Ford & GM(Opel) were vital to the
german war effort.

To the early war effort...after 41' thoes partnerships ended, officially. Though Opel continued to use the American made machine tools and milling machines to the end of the war. Remember that support had more to do with regular payments from Berlin than actuall support of the Nazi cause, Americans will always follow the lure of hard cash.....or gold as was often the case for pre-War Germany

[Thunderfire]

To the early war effort...after 41' thoes partnerships ended, officially.

Officially... Some of them even sold/bought stuff to/from the germany
in 1942 and onwards. Standard Oil was one of them. Others like Ford
even admired Hitler.

[Sokar]

True , but Henry Ford was a whack job to begin with. Incredible organizer and innovator, but a psych case none the less. Ford believed that he and the other captains of Industry would rapidly become the new aristocracy, and that they had inherited the whole 'divine right of Kings' concept. Hell Fors though he was the Pharoes of Egypt reborn, certainly worked his employees like Hebrew slaves, and he was just as capricious.

However I reference my previous statement, until in late '42 when the US gov decided to step on the neck of Ford and Standard Oil , they were quite happy to take Hitlers money
American Corporations + Customers = Sales, even if it is to a bunch of genocidal madmen.....

[RedImperator]

Another element of an invasion of Japan which isn't given a whole lot of consideration is the likelihood of a Soviet invasion from the north. The Soviets owned the Japanese in nearly every ground action against them, and the northern defenses were practically stripped bare to prepare for an American invasion from the south. Japan could very easily have been divided the same way Germany had been, with very bad implications for the Cold War.

[Sokar]

An ugly thought if I 've ever seen one. Though I am doubtful of the Sov's ability to move troops from the mainland of Asia to the islands, unless the US Fleet supplied the amphibious landers and transport ships, which is unlikely as every last one would be needed by American forces. As I remember it the Sovs lacked any major naval assets in the Pacific at the time plus Stalin had no real intentions of helping in Asia , but when opportunity knocked after the first Atomioc bomb, hey why not shear off a few thousand acres of Korean and Chinese territory while we have the chance......

A partitioned Japan would have been nightmare...plus it would have changed the entire tone and course of the occupation plus changed the advancement of Western tech by several orders of magnitude as the resurgent Japan was a major source of tecnological innovaton for the last 50 years....

[Enforcer Talen]

it's my thot that japan would have been as bloody as stalingrad or berlin, but spread over the entire island. the ocean might quite possibly turn red.

[The Dark]

Another element of an invasion of Japan which isn't given a whole lot of consideration is the likelihood of a Soviet invasion from the north. The Soviets owned the Japanese in nearly every ground action against them, and the northern defenses were practically stripped bare to prepare for an American invasion from the south. Japan could very easily have been divided the same way Germany had been, with very bad implications for the Cold War.

Did Russia have a navy capable of invading Japan? IIRC, their naval forces were rather weak, and had been annihiliated by the Japanese twice in previous years (Tsushima and another battle whose name I can't recall).

it's my thot that japan would have been as bloody as stalingrad or berlin, but spread over the entire island. the ocean might quite possibly turn red.

Worse. Much worse. Conservative contemporary estimates are a million dead for the Americans. Any attempts I've seen to lower those numbers underestimates the Japanese defense efforts. Imagine Okinawa (barely 3-to-1 casualty rate) spread across the entire Home Islands. Every landing spot was defended, and more kamikazes were ready to prevent the invasion of the Home Islands than had been used in the entire war to that point.

[Typhonis 1]

Aslo the Kamikazes were going for thr Troop trnsports werent they? and there WAS a Hurricane to complicate matters

[The Dark]

Aslo the Kamikazes were going for thr Troop trnsports werent they?

Nod. They changed from going after heavily AA-armed destroyers and carriers to transports with a single machinegun for defense.

and there WAS a Hurricane to complicate matters

They most likely wouldn't have tried to sweep through a hurricane (unless Halsey was put in charge ).

The main problem with the low numbers is their source. The low casualty figures came from the Army, who wanted to invade in order to prove they were still needed. Since the majority of the Pacific War had been Navy and Marines, the Army was feeling left out and wanted in on the action. The Navy agreed with the numbers UNTIL they saw the underlying assumptions. It had been agreed that only if there was mutual agreement for an invasion that it could succeed, and Nimitz was ready to pull support based on what his intelligence people were saying. He didn't believe the invasion would succeed, and post-war intelligence tends to bear out that beliefs. Rather than the huge superiority the Army had assumed in their plans, they would have had roughly a 1.5-to-1 advantage in numbers in their invasion. Given that Okinawa was a bloodbath for the Marines and Army at roughly the same odds, it would be relatively safe to assume that casualties at least proportionally as heavy would occur on the Home Islands, given Japan's improved tactics over the Battle of Okinawa.

[irishmick79]

How about this for an alternative history?

George Patton survives the car crash that killed him in Dec 1945. After raising hell in occupied europe, the army ships him out to the pacific when North Korea invades the south. His forceful personality, combined with Douglas Macarthur's, finally convinces Eisenhower to take the gloves off and let them go into China.

[Typhonis 1]

ok What if in May 1945 Zukov hadnt stoped where he did and ordered the Red Army to push to the Rhine even if it meant fighting the Americans and British