Alternate History, or What Might Have Been....

[Thunderfire]

The germans had a theoretical chance to beat the russians in 41 - they have to
be nice to the russians. But this is incompatible with the nazi ideology.

Not quite sure what you mean...

The russians greeted the germans as liberators. This lasted until the SS came.
More russians willing to work with the germans probably means more soldiers
for germany and less for the USSR. This will get worse for the russians if stalin
starts to see traitor everywhere.

[irishmick79]

Forgive me for interrupting the debate about Germany's chances in WWII, but I'd thought I'd return to the topic at hand and add my input.

For the most part I hate alternative history. Historical characters like Abraham Lincoln and Adolf Hitler are so hard to properly charactarize unless you knew them personally. We can only look at people like Jefferson and Washington retrospectively, and it clouds our ability to judge them as actual men. It's way too easy for an author's attempt to write alternative history to degenerate into a personal wankfest.

[Typhonis 1]

hmm Sounds like Space 1889 a game that detailed a Steampunk world

[Glocksman]

For the most part I hate alternative history. Historical characters like Abraham Lincoln and Adolf Hitler are so hard to properly charactarize unless you knew them personally. We can only look at people like Jefferson and Washington retrospectively, and it clouds our ability to judge them as actual men. It's way too easy for an author's attempt to write alternative history to degenerate into a personal wankfest.

That's probably why Turtledove usually doesn't concentrate upon the personalities of historical figures in his fiction. He focuses upon original characters and their stories. The real historical figures are present, but he doesn't flesh them out like he does the original stories.

Though I think Turtledove did a good job of fleshing out Robert E. Lee in Guns of the South

One example of the problem you mention is Harry Harrison's Stars and Stripes trilogy. Some of the dialogue in those books makes me cringe when I read it

[Glocksman]

The real historical figures are present, but he doesn't flesh them out like he does the original stories.

Bah, damned typos.

That last word should be 'characters', not 'stories'.

[Ted]

If Hitler hadn't ordered the SS to slaughter Ruskie civilians, he would've had them on his side. They hated Stalin, and felt at first that Hitler was the better of the two.

Also, if the Eye-ties hadn't been such damn loosers and delayed Barbarossa, the Germans would've captured Moscow before the heavy snows fell, and would've had Leningrad if Hitler hadn't ordered his troops to lay seige, but to actually go in and capture it.

Rommel HAD convinced Hitler about a plan to attack towards India, it would've required Kesselring to finally eliminate the RAF on Malta, for Mussolini and his Eye-tie dogs to actually go through with their plan to invade Malta that was abandoned on the morning it was planned to go on.
It would've co-incided with a push through the Caucus down towards Baku, with enough Panzer divisions to push through to Alexandria, eliminating the British from Egypt, allowing for a push towards the Middle East oil fields. With that supply of oil, he then would've been able to attack north through Persia, before the British and Russians landed troops there to prevent German occupation.

The Russians around Stalingrad and east of there would've had the Germans on the west, and Germans coming up from the south-east.

[Pablo Sanchez]

If Hitler hadn't ordered the SS to slaughter Ruskie civilians, he would've had them on his side. They hated Stalin, and felt at first that Hitler was the better of the two.

Yeah. The SS and Hitler are just going to forget twenty years of fanaticism and rhetoric just so they can get some slavs on their side.

Also, if the Eye-ties hadn't been such damn loosers and delayed Barbarossa, the Germans would've captured Moscow before the heavy snows fell, and would've had Leningrad if Hitler hadn't ordered his troops to lay seige, but to actually go in and capture it.

The 1941 Spring rasputitsa was prolonged; the onset of good campaigning conditions did not come on until around the time of the actual invasion.

Rommel HAD convinced Hitler about a plan to attack towards India, it would've required Kesselring to finally eliminate the RAF on Malta, for Mussolini and his Eye-tie dogs to actually go through with their plan to invade Malta that was abandoned on the morning it was planned to go on.
It would've co-incided with a push through the Caucus down towards Baku, with enough Panzer divisions to push through to Alexandria, eliminating the British from Egypt, allowing for a push towards the Middle East oil fields. With that supply of oil, he then would've been able to attack north through Persia, before the British and Russians landed troops there to prevent German occupation.

This is a massive series of assumptions. First, you assume that Rommel can beat the British in Africa, even though most of the Axis air power in the Mediterranean would be tied up dealing with Malta. Then you assume that he'd be able to push them clean out of Egypt, a difficult proposition. Then you assume that the Western Allies wouldn't think of concentrating more RN assets in the Mediterranean and wasting what shipping the Italians could muster. Then you assume that the Allies wouldn't even consider landing troops a la Torch, which the reduction of Malta wouldn't prevent them from doing.

The Russians around Stalingrad and east of there would've had the Germans on the west, and Germans coming up from the south-east.

Think for a moment about the difficulties of supplying mechanized forces thousands of miles away, across a small ocean which hasn't been secured and you incidentally don't have very good shipping in anyway, then through territory that is full of hostiles and has partisan-friendly terrain, and only then do you get to cross a vast desert on a bare handful of rail lines. Saying that a German thrust through the Middle East, Persia, and Kazakhstan would be operating on a logistical shoestring is a gross understatement.

[Pcm979]

Since it seems appearent that Germany could not have won the war, what do you think would have happened if von Stauffenberg's attempt on Hitler's life had suceeded? The war would have ended a year early, and there'd be several million more people who could have had kids, drastically increasing the world's population.

[Sea Skimmer]

The germans had a theoretical chance to beat the russians in 41 - they have to
be nice to the russians. But this is incompatible with the nazi ideology.

Not quite sure what you mean...

The russians greeted the germans as liberators. This lasted until the SS came.
More russians willing to work with the germans probably means more soldiers
for germany and less for the USSR. This will get worse for the russians if stalin
starts to see traitor everywhere.

Some people on the Soviet Union welcomed the Germanys, but they where mostly not Russians. Indeed the majority where Ukrainian or other minorities who lived outside Russia proper. The further the Germans went east the less they where welcomed. Bellorussia, whoes people are much closer to Russians didn't welcome the Germans, in fact the place had considerabul gurrilia activity from the start.

[Sokar]

Since it seems appearent that Germany could not have won the war, what do you think would have happened if von Stauffenberg's attempt on Hitler's life had suceeded? The war would have ended a year early, and there'd be several million more people who could have had kids, drastically increasing the world's population.

Hmmm....Ignoring the potential shift in global population patterns, a successful bombing at the Wolfs Lair would have changed things majorly. the key would lie in wether the Americans and British could call Stalin to heel in the East when Rommel(Who was to be the new Furher after purging of Hitlers inner circle, even though he never knew it....) would have taken power. The plan as I remember it(its been a while since I looked at the Stauffenberg Attempt) was to immedieatly sue for Peace, forfeiting all territory and a return to pre-war borders in return for a ceasefire in France and Belgium with the British and Americans and hope that they could reign in the Soviets. If not they would hope for the Allies to split and this would allow Germany to end the War in the West and transfer all of thoes divisions East if it was necessary to continue the war in Russia. Hitlers Death in early 44 would have changed things , but Germany would still lose, unless the Allies completly disintegrated over what to do with a new power structure in Berlin which was possible, but unlikely. Although the outcome of the Eastern front would have changed dramaticaly with the infusion of divisions, but would have possibly only added six months to a year of time in the East, as by August 44 the Soviet offensives in Belo-russia and the Ukraine had smashed Army group Center and AG Ukraine and had Russian spearheads in Poland and Hungary by the end of Summer '44.

A better scenario is the whole Hitler dies in the trenches of WWI in a mustard gas attack, what happens in Europe then..... do we end up with a C&C Red Alert type scenario with Europe and America vrs the Sovs and possibly the Red Chinese in say 1944 with Japan and the US still at war in the Pacific......hmmmmm........to many variables to pick out.......

[The Dark]

I doubt Red Chinese. The only reason Kai-Shek lost was because Stilwell convinced him not to finish off the Communists when they had no army. Without WWII, Stilwell doesn't reach China, and the Nationalists defeat the Communists. At least, that's my read on it.

[Pcm979]

Since it seems appearent that Germany could not have won the war, what do you think would have happened if von Stauffenberg's attempt on Hitler's life had suceeded? The war would have ended a year early, and there'd be several million more people who could have had kids, drastically increasing the world's population.

Hmmm....Ignoring the potential shift in global population patterns, a successful bombing at the Wolfs Lair would have changed things majorly. the key would lie in wether the Americans and British could call Stalin to heel in the East when Rommel(Who was to be the new Furher after purging of Hitlers inner circle, even though he never knew it....) would have taken power. The plan as I remember it(its been a while since I looked at the Stauffenberg Attempt) was to immedieatly sue for Peace, forfeiting all territory and a return to pre-war borders in return for a ceasefire in France and Belgium with the British and Americans and hope that they could reign in the Soviets. If not they would hope for the Allies to split and this would allow Germany to end the War in the West and transfer all of thoes divisions East if it was necessary to continue the war in Russia. Hitlers Death in early 44 would have changed things , but Germany would still lose, unless the Allies completly disintegrated over what to do with a new power structure in Berlin which was possible, but unlikely. Although the outcome of the Eastern front would have changed dramaticaly with the infusion of divisions, but would have possibly only added six months to a year of time in the East, as by August 44 the Soviet offensives in Belo-russia and the Ukraine had smashed Army group Center and AG Ukraine and had Russian spearheads in Poland and Hungary by the end of Summer '44.

A better scenario is the whole Hitler dies in the trenches of WWI in a mustard gas attack, what happens in Europe then..... do we end up with a C&C Red Alert type scenario with Europe and America vrs the Sovs and possibly the Red Chinese in say 1944 with Japan and the US still at war in the Pacific......hmmmmm........to many variables to pick out.......

Exellent report, but I was really wondering what would be the global consequences years on.

[Typhonis 1]

This was speculated on in the book Fox on the Rhine Himmler takes power and cuts a deal with Stlin V2 technology ,Norway and Greece for a cease fire or even Peace.

[Enforcer Talen]

Id say that hitler was a genius, but also mad as a hatter. to take a party of four and make it continent dominating - and for the idealogy to last 50 yrs after his death - takes some smarts, even if only the nature of understanding other people.

[InnerBrat]

Again, bringing it back on topic, abnd the discussion of literature, can i mention Ward Moore's Bring the Jubilee?

Not only a good alternative history, but an excellent time travel story!

[Glocksman]

I read that one last year, and it wasn't bad. The ending was a little different.

Turtledove's Guns of the South isn't bad at all for a time travel AH.

[Sokar]

Id say that hitler was a genius, but also mad as a hatter. to take a party of four and make it continent dominating - and for the idealogy to last 50 yrs after his death - takes some smarts, even if only the nature of understanding other people.

The line between genius and madman is as transparent as tissue paper. Hitler, was a compulsive liar, lazy and indolent, but knew how to appeal to a mass ideology, but he was helped along by a complacent German populace willing to put up with anything in order to get the country back in some sembalance of Order after the chaos of Weimar and the Versailles Treaty. As to his ideology surviving for 50 years, most Neo-Nazis have only the basest understanding of what National Socialism was all about. They take the White-supremacy bullshit and the martial pride and mix in a healthy dose of genocide ans SS propaganda and you have the Neo-Nazi movement...

[Ted]

Anybody read the Peshawa Lancers?

Forget who it's by, but it involves a spray of meteors hitting the earth in the 1870's, and nuclear winter lasting for 10-15 years.

The Brits abandon Britain with as many people factory tools, and knowledge as possible, moving it all to India.

It's set in the early 21st century when the world is basically at about the late-nineteenth century tech standards, Europe and America is full of savages, and the Czars in Russia have a mad evil empire.

[Glocksman]

Anybody read the Peshawar Lancers?

Great book.
The Russians aren't just evil, they evolved into cannibals (roast suckling Uzbek)!