SGA 5x19 "Vegas" Talkback (Spoilers)

[PREDATOR490]

It seems highly unlikely the Wraith are going to automatically attacking when they arrive in the Milky Way. If they need to jump out of HS every so often then the chances of encountering or detecting the presence of Goa'uld ships increases substantially.

If the Goa'uld manage to resist, the Wraith will shift tactics. They did the same in Siege and the Goa'uld are not used to fighting opponents like the Wraith. The X304s are not THAT powerful that they can engage multiple hive ships for long and the Wraith are USED to fighting opponents with superior technology. They did this to the Ancients warships until they got the ZPMs to power the clone facility.
5 X304s vs 50 - 60+ Hive ships - not counting this season showed the Wraith can grow more of them if they choose to do so by infecting people like Keller was.

As for getting access to intergalactic drives. We have several ancient ships / tech lying in the Pegasus galaxy waiting to be found and ZPMs. Either of which present the Wraith with the chance of getting those drives and being able to reach the Milky Way. Logically the Wraith should have had these drives ages ago but they seem to have remained technologically stagnant since they won.
With the desperation and promise of new feeding grounds they are going to have motivation to get to the Milky Way and that will involve disecting Ancient tech to do so. We already saw this happening with the Aurora warship with the hibernation pods.
With no SG team to stop them, the Ancient gives the Wraith the schematics and thats them got the drive system AND potentially finding Atlantis.

[JME2]

I liked it overall and it was nice how they tied it back into Season 3's "Mr. McKay and Mrs. Miller". And from the preview, I'm pumped for the final episode next week.

4/5

There is no connection to "Mr. McKay and Mrs. Miller". In that universe, Sheppard is part of the Atlantis team, and McKay's personality did not match.

You are absolutely correct, sir. My mistake for gettings alternate realities mixed up.

[Bilbo]

As for getting access to intergalactic drives. We have several ancient ships / tech lying in the Pegasus galaxy waiting to be found and ZPMs. Either of which present the Wraith with the chance of getting those drives and being able to reach the Milky Way. Logically the Wraith should have had these drives ages ago but they seem to have remained technologically stagnant since they won.

In the thousands of years since they defeated the Ancients they have not found any of these things or advanced tech wise. So assuming that they will suddenly gain them when this message comes along is rather "convenient".

[Bilbo]

It seems highly unlikely the Wraith are going to automatically attacking when they arrive in the Milky Way. If they need to jump out of HS every so often then the chances of encountering or detecting the presence of Goa'uld ships increases substantially.

If the Goa'uld manage to resist, the Wraith will shift tactics. They did the same in Siege and the Goa'uld are not used to fighting opponents like the Wraith. The X304s are not THAT powerful that they can engage multiple hive ships for long and the Wraith are USED to fighting opponents with superior technology. They did this to the Ancients warships until they got the ZPMs to power the clone facility.
5 X304s vs 50 - 60+ Hive ships - not counting this season showed the Wraith can grow more of them if they choose to do so by infecting people like Keller was.

As for getting access to intergalactic drives. We have several ancient ships / tech lying in the Pegasus galaxy waiting to be found and ZPMs. Either of which present the Wraith with the chance of getting those drives and being able to reach the Milky Way. Logically the Wraith should have had these drives ages ago but they seem to have remained technologically stagnant since they won.
With the desperation and promise of new feeding grounds they are going to have motivation to get to the Milky Way and that will involve disecting Ancient tech to do so. We already saw this happening with the Aurora warship with the hibernation pods.
With no SG team to stop them, the Ancient gives the Wraith the schematics and thats them got the drive system AND potentially finding Atlantis.

I responded to one part but reading this I will have to respond to the whole thing.

1. Wraith only learn what they have to learn. In the thousands of years since they won the war they have no advanced an ounce tech wise.

2. They only found the Ancient warship because it responded to Atlantis being turned back on. Otherwise that ships stays floating in the vastness of space forever. If the Wraith have not found it by now they are not going to find it.

3. Wraith do not work together unless they have to work together. They fight each other over food sources at the drop of a hat.

4. The message was being sent by one Wraith to the rest of the Wraith in a reality that already knew Earth existed and that Wraith would obviously know nothing of the Goa'uld. So odds are the message said nothing more than "Earth is here, come for buffet" it would not need to be any more detailed than that because the sender assumes the receiver already has the info to put it in context and a simple message has a better chance of sending sucessfully. In the main show reality a large Wraith force would go because food is scarce and they know humans can fight. In realities where no humans went to Pegasus (and we assume they somehow can get to Earth quickly) most Wraith are sleeping and odds are a few curious Hiveships (maybe those with smaller territories in Pegasus) will go. 3 or 4 Wraith ships coming to Milky Way will get mauled by the Goa'uld. Hell that may be the end of the threat. A few show go, none return, none of the other Wraith really want to know what happened to them. Story ends.

5. They are used to fighting with a huge advantage in numbers. They were losing the war before they got the number advantage. If the Wraith encounter the Goa'uld at their height then they will be fighting an enemy as ruthless as they are who have nothing against using WMD and wont try to talk first like the Ancients did for some stupid reason.

[NecronLord]

In the thousands of years since they defeated the Ancients they have not found any of these things or advanced tech wise. So assuming that they will suddenly gain them when this message comes along is rather "convenient".

You really don't know that.

Why not wait until next episode and see, in fact, instead of embarrasing yourself with claims like this?
Spoiler

The chief limitation of their technology is power generation. With an Asuran ZPM dug up from the destroyed cloning facility, they've made a grown a ship with a bigger, denser hull that resists asgard beams with only superficial damage, sports enough sensors to penetrate cloaking devices, but has powerful enough weapons to drop a city ship's shields in a few volleys, and destroy upgraded 304s with contemptous ease. Oh, and it can make the voyage between galaxies in a few hours, with one break.

No wonder the Asurans weren't prepared to let the humans have any of their power modules; the wraith getting a few would be a serious threat to their ships.

[Bilbo]

In the thousands of years since they defeated the Ancients they have not found any of these things or advanced tech wise. So assuming that they will suddenly gain them when this message comes along is rather "convenient".

You really don't know that.

Why not wait until next episode and see, in fact, instead of embarrasing yourself with claims like this?
Spoiler

The chief limitation of their technology is power generation. With an Asuran ZPM dug up from the destroyed cloning facility, they've made a grown a ship with a bigger, denser hull that resists asgard beams with only superficial damage, sports enough sensors to penetrate cloaking devices, but has powerful enough weapons to drop a city ship's shields in a few volleys, and destroy upgraded 304s with contemptous ease. Oh, and it can make the voyage between galaxies in a few hours, with one break.

No wonder the Asurans weren't prepared to let the humans have any of their power modules; the wraith getting a few would be a serious threat to their ships.

Spoiler

That is fine but it would completely contradict what was done in the past. The Wraith have acquired ZPM's before and yet never did any of this. Even recently when they claimed ZPMs they used to them power a cloning facility. So while your statements will be true in the final episode they will still completely alter continuity. Where did this tech suddenly come from? The Wraith have sieged Atlantis in the past and the present and neither time did they build these super ships. Todd's forces acquired 3 ZPMs and in a galaxy short on food he wanted to clone more soldiers? Wouldnt a super hive able to control a greater food territory be much more important?

Poor poor writing unless they come up with some explanation that "new research" or research from Michael allowed this new ship to be built.

[NecronLord]

I have edited spoiler-tags into your last post for you. You're now talking about spoilers.

Spoiler

That is fine but it would completely contradict what was done in the past. The Wraith have acquired ZPM's before and yet never did any of this. Even recently when they claimed ZPMs they used to them power a cloning facility. So while your statements will be true in the final episode they will still completely alter continuity. Where did this tech suddenly come from? The Wraith have sieged Atlantis in the past and the present and neither time did they build these super ships. Todd's forces acquired 3 ZPMs and in a galaxy short on food he wanted to clone more soldiers? Wouldnt a super hive able to control a greater food territory be much more important?

Poor poor writing unless they come up with some explanation that "new research" or research from Michael allowed this new ship to be built.

Spoiler

What tech? There is no new 'tech' involved. Something people at gateworld seem to have been having difficulty grasping. Work In → Work Out. If they use a ZPM, they can power more and bigger engines. This isn't rocket science (well...).

Want to see through a cloak? Build more passive sensors. Power your active sensors more. A cloaking device isn't invincible.

And yes, they beseiged Atlantis in the past. So? The ZPMs were on the inside. The Wraith were on the outside. They took a few ZPMs off the Ancients, and used them to grow a massive clone army; there's plenty of space for them to have built battleships with the ZPMs once they had enough soldiers, too, and for those ZPMs to thus be lost in battle against the Ancients.

As for why Todd didn't build it before; Simple. You need a crew to run a ship (and it sure helps to have an army if you're going to be harvesting). You make the crew first, then you take the ZPMs out, and build the battleship for them to live in.

As for your claim that neither time did they build these ships: The show has shown very little of the Wraith-Lantean war. Please explain where you are getting your complete record of forces used during the hundred year long Wraith-Lantean war. I would very much like to read that.

[Bilbo]

I have edited spoiler-tags into your last post for you. You're now talking about spoilers.

Spoiler

That is fine but it would completely contradict what was done in the past. The Wraith have acquired ZPM's before and yet never did any of this. Even recently when they claimed ZPMs they used to them power a cloning facility. So while your statements will be true in the final episode they will still completely alter continuity. Where did this tech suddenly come from? The Wraith have sieged Atlantis in the past and the present and neither time did they build these super ships. Todd's forces acquired 3 ZPMs and in a galaxy short on food he wanted to clone more soldiers? Wouldnt a super hive able to control a greater food territory be much more important?

Poor poor writing unless they come up with some explanation that "new research" or research from Michael allowed this new ship to be built.

Spoiler

What tech? There is no new 'tech' involved. Something people at gateworld seem to have been having difficulty grasping. Work In → Work Out. If they use a ZPM, they can power more and bigger engines. This isn't rocket science (well...).

Want to see through a cloak? Build more passive sensors. Power your active sensors more. A cloaking device isn't invincible.

And yes, they beseiged Atlantis in the past. So? The ZPMs were on the inside. The Wraith were on the outside. They took a few ZPMs off the Ancients, and used them to grow a massive clone army; there's plenty of space for them to have built battleships with the ZPMs once they had enough soldiers, too, and for those ZPMs to thus be lost in battle against the Ancients.

As for why Todd didn't build it before; Simple. You need a crew to run a ship (and it sure helps to have an army if you're going to be harvesting). You make the crew first, then you take the ZPMs out, and build the battleship for them to live in.

As for your claim that neither time did they build these ships: The show has shown very little of the Wraith-Lantean war. Please explain where you are getting your complete record of forces used during the hundred year long Wraith-Lantean war. I would very much like to read that.

Spoiler

So heavier armor that resists Asgard weapons and more powerful weapons are not new technology? If they had these super ships during the war then where are they now? How come they had to siege Atlantis for years yet could not break through the shields? Even if they lost all their uber-hives why would they chose not to build more of them?

The Wraith were able to send Hives intergalactic once they stole some tech from Atlantis but your saying this isnt needed? Just throw more power at it and you go as fast as you need to? The Janus doomsday weapon clearly explained that the Wraith used a different type of hyperspace travel which fit nicely with the storyline that faster travel was a tech requirement not a power requirement. Even without a ZPM a 304 can travel galaxies in a few weeks. For a Wraith cruiser that trip is much much longer. So its not just power generation but also technology that is needed.

This is all a make the Wraith a threat again pulled out of the authors butt. It may be entertaining but this is most certainly a Deux Ex machine for the Wraith.

I will withold my overall opinion till after I watch the episode but right now it looks like we need to build up the Wraith so we can defeat them in another horrible straight to DVD movie.

BTW, thanks for adding the spoiler tags.

[NecronLord]

Spoiler

Firstly, the only correct transitive verb form of 'siege' is 'beseige' ; the Wraith will besiege the Humans. The Wraith besieged the Ancients. This really is a grammar error that bugs the hell out of me.

Second, think about what you're saying. 'How is thicker, denser, armour layers not a new technology?' If you really can't answer that on your own, you're hopeless. They just take their existing stuff, and build more.

The ship requires a ZPM to power it, not just to grow it. Normal hive ships are stated to be at the optimal limit for what they can build with their existing power generation technology, that's not likely to tear itself apart trying to turn. This one has a ZPM in it, and can thus be bigger and more massive.

And yes, throw more power at it, and it goes faster. Why do you think the Daedalus goes faster when it has a ZPM than when it doesn't? Why do you think its shields are stronger when it has a ZPM than when it doesn't? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The wraith can do more with extra power supplies, too. What's more, the limits of their existing power supplies are the reason for their weakness.

The battleship requires a ZPM to function; if they used them in the Wraith-Lantean war (not said or really implied, but possible) and the Lanteans shot them down, they would not be able to build more until they got more ZPMs.

What's more, the Aterro device targeted 'signatures,' an ideosycnracity of the design. Asgard and Wraith drives still use the same prinicples. Like electricity. My computer is powered by a socket that happens to use 240 volts, and yours probably (US?) uses 110 volts. Does that mean that mine doesn't use electrical alternating current? Same thing; they have some unknown 'signature' that can be targetted and disrupted, but they're still hyperdrives.

It's most certainly not a 'deus ex machina' or a 'butt pull' in the way you think it is. If I were to jab you with leads from a light fitting, you would probably be in some brief pain. If I were to jab you with wires from an electrical pylon, you would die.

It's the same thing: if the wraith get a better power supply, the wraith become better at meteing out the hurt.

[Zac Naloen]

Spoiler

The ship requires a ZPM to power it, not just to grow it. Normal hive ships are stated to be at the optimal limit for what they can build with their existing power generation technology, that's not likely to tear itself apart trying to turn. This one has a ZPM in it, and can thus be bigger and more massive.

I have to say by throwing in that little tidbit of info earlier in the season they saved themselves from more cries of Deux Ex Machina.

[Bilbo]

Spoiler

Sure you can pile on more armor, it will get thicker and it will take longer to punch through it. But it doesnt suddenly make the armor impervious to harm. You said it could take Asgard hits with superficial damage. That to me sounds more like denser stronger improved armor, not just thickened armor.

You said that the weapons suddenly could blow away the city shields. The city shields survived hours of bombardment by multiple Wraith Cruisers and Hive ships. A single ZPM is going to add more firepower than a fleet of Hive Ships?

Super speed, super armor, super weapons, super scanners, all from adding one little ZPM. Now that is a Deux Ex storyline for sure. Incredibly poor writing.

[NecronLord]

I have to say by throwing in that little tidbit of info earlier in the season they saved themselves from more cries of Deux Ex Machina.

Yeah. More lead-up to the finale than just this episode would have been good.

[Zac Naloen]

Spoiler

You said that the weapons suddenly could blow away the city shields. The city shields survived hours of bombardment by multiple Wraith Cruisers and Hive ships. A single ZPM is going to add more firepower than a fleet of Hive Ships?

The Shields work by bleeding away energy from a blast. Can survive lots of little shots because it's lots of little shots over a long period of time. One big shot = overloaded emitters. That was settled when the Gate exploded mid season. That said it still survived a hell of a lot longer and took far more shots than the Daedulus class ships did.

Super speed, super armor, super weapons, super scanners, all from adding one little ZPM. Now that is a Deux Ex storyline for sure. Incredibly poor writing.

More efficient, More efficient, More efficient, More efficient.

[NecronLord]

Spoiler

Sure you can pile on more armor, it will get thicker and it will take longer to punch through it. But it doesnt suddenly make the armor impervious to harm. You said it could take Asgard hits with superficial damage. That to me sounds more like denser stronger improved armor, not just thickened armor.

You said that the weapons suddenly could blow away the city shields. The city shields survived hours of bombardment by multiple Wraith Cruisers and Hive ships. A single ZPM is going to add more firepower than a fleet of Hive Ships?

Super speed, super armor, super weapons, super scanners, all from adding one little ZPM. Now that is a Deux Ex storyline for sure. Incredibly poor writing.

Spoiler

No shit, it's said to be denser. Literally. In the episode. I've already said as much to you. And it takes asgard beam weapons. It's not proof against them, but they don't do much. But it's happily able to shoot back and defeat human ships, while they're shooting it.

And yes. One ZPM powering dedicated weapons can beat three powering shields. Equivalent offense is always stronger than defence. Always has been in history - an Abrams tank can shoot through another Abrams tank's armour, no trouble.

You clearly don't know what a Deus Ex Mechanica is. It's unexpected aid and resolution in favour of protagonists. Any event that harms the good guys cannot be a Deus Ex Mechanica, because a Deus Ex Mechanica is, by default, a resolution of the story.

As an example, a Deus Ex Mechanica would be, say The Ascended Ancients intervene and annihilate the Wraith..

[Zac Naloen]

Spoiler

Or pulling a wormhole drive out of your ass because you needed to create lame jeopardy.

[NecronLord]

Spoiler

Or pulling a wormhole drive out of your ass because you needed to create lame jeopardy.

Spoiler

Yeah, that is a Deus Ex Mechanica, but I didn't really want to mention that one.

Anyway, I think we're getting this thread way off track now... If you want to keep going bilbo, PM me.

[Bilbo]

No thats okay. I will wait for the final epiode and see how it plays out.

As for this episode I enjoyed it more than I thought it would. I thought in the beginning it would be one of those "reality" episodes but I was pleasantly surprised that it was not.

[CaptJodan]

So it ties into the main story because of course the timeline that got the message will be the main timeline. What I dont get is why this matters.

I know we're talking about different things here, but that basically sums up my opinion of this episode. In your context, it's "why does it matter if the Wraith know where Earth is", but having seen the next ep, I know why. On the other hand, my question throughout this episode was why should I care about these characters? Alternate, never-before-seen Sheppard dies for cheap emotional impact, and I don't give a rats ass. They could have had the Wraith blow up Earth for all I cared, I still hadn't actually seen any of these people and had no real connection between them.

In some very minor ways it looks back towards the first season where Daniel went through the mirror. But that episode had differences which made me care more. For one, our Daniel was there. We got to see a couple of barely used characters that didn't get much screen time otherwise. Obviously, these elements couldn't have been used in the structure of this episode, but what was done for it as a run-up to the very last episode was poor. Spoiler

They comment during the last episode on the transmission sent, giving it nearly as much time spent in the final episode telling each other about its existence as was spent in this episode.

Spoiler

Or pulling a wormhole drive out of your ass because you needed to create lame jeopardy.

THANK YOU. One of oh so many things I can't wait to get into when the topic rolls around this week. For now, I'm going to try and hold out till the next topic comes up. Necron and I disagree about almost everything SG related it seems, so I'm sure we'll have a lot to disagree with coming up in 5x20. I enjoy it. It's a kind of perverse tradition.

[Braedley]

I guess I should throw my couple pennies in. I liked the homage paid to CSI. I think it was obvious, but not really over reaching. I also like the fact that it was a can show, but added to the arc, although I do understand others who wanted a more season arc episode. As for next week, should be interesting. I'm not going to read any more of the spoilers than I already have (which basically have only given glimpses into the first 15-20 minutes of the episode).

[Strider]

I really liked it as a standalone, though I'm conflicted on if it should have been the penultimate episode.

This was perhaps on of Shepard's best episodes, and I felt that one sort of subtle message was that this John actually WAS different from our John. In this reality, John got his team killed trying to save his lover. In ours, John sacrificed Elizabeth in "Lifeline" to save his team and Atlantis. In that reality, John fell apart and gave up when his lover died, but in ours, he was able to keep going after he lost Weir. Both of them were heroes, but they had a clearly different set of priorities.

On the other hand, Keller's role was marginalized and Teyla and Ronin were completely absent, which I feel is a bit more of a slight for the 2nd last episode in the series than it would normally be. McKay was great, as usual, and Todd's crazy ravings were much appreciated. In a lot of ways, this episode was a microcosm of the entire series, good and bad. Shepard gets to be a very cool but conflicted and ultimately tragic action hero. McKay plays his straight man and gets lots of interesting parts along the way. Meanwhile, the rest of the cast is underdeveloped, and frequently recurring characters directly linked to Shepard and/or McKay (in this case, Todd) are far more important to the plot than Teyla, Ronin, and the rest. Even when other characters such as Keller or Teyla are important, it's usually because of some link they have with Shepard (the Teyla-baby-saving time travel quest) or McKay (most of Keller's plot this season centered around the whole McKay/Ronin dating dilemma).

That all said, I still love Atlantis, mainly because the two screen hogging characters are both so good, and I'll be sad to see it go.

[Crazedwraith]

Pretty good episode. Although the "lol, we're being like CSI" and modern cinematography got old quickly. But the rock song themes for the Wraith and Alt Sheppard kicked ass. As did the Wraith's tooling up sequence. Todd however veered a little to close to BSG Hybrid territory. And was it just me or did his cell look exactly like the one on Atlantis, except made from earth materials? Right down to the blue glow.

Still similarly to ENTs: In A Mirror Darkly; I can't help but feel that having an episode set entirely in a different reality is a bit of a cheat. THe team visit AUs or them visiting the main timeline; that's fine but not this. Might as well say every episode is in its own reality at that rate. It wold avoid all questions about continuity at least.

I did like the line: "our universe is the only one that I care about", hasn;t someone from our universe said that or something similar at one time or another? Looks like that's going to come back and bite us in the ass. Metaphorically at least.

[CaptJodan]

Still similarly to ENTs: In A Mirror Darkly;

Hush, you. I may not love this episode, but how dare you compare it to Enterprise. Though I agree with you on the AU issues.

I did like the line: "our universe is the only one that I care about", hasn;t someone from our universe said that or something similar at one time or another? Looks like that's going to come back and bite us in the ass. Metaphorically at least.

Last I remember hearing it was Landry in the final SG-1 movie. It was an alternate Landry, but I'm sure our guys have said it at least once before, probably General Hammond in the "multiple teams show up through the gate" episode.

[Revy]

Tealc also said it in the episode where an alternate Sam and Kawolski came through the mirror and asked for their help. T killed his alternate self and said to O'Neill something like; "As you have said O'Neill, ours is the only reality of consequence."

[Stargate Nerd]

You really don't know that.

Why not wait until next episode and see, in fact, instead of embarrasing yourself with claims like this?

Spoiler

Stargate tech of any faction suddenly becoming uber when coupled with superior power generation is nothing new. You can argue that the only thing holding back the Goa'uld is power generation as well. But that's coulda, shoulda, woulda land. As it is neither the Wraith nor the Goa'uld have means of "advanced" power generation, so why even bring it into the debate?

[NecronLord]

Spoiler

Are you brain dead? The reason I labelled this as spoilers is because it's in the next episode. It's not speculation - this is stuff that is explicitly stated on screen in the next episode, and then demonstrated very potently. The Wraith get their ZPMs back, and start kicking seven kinds of shite out of the Tau'ri. One three second volley from a hive's guns, and the Daedalus is dead in space, shields down, waiting for the kill-shot.