nBSG ep 4.15: "No Exit" Talkback (SPOILERS)

[apocolypse]

That was one of the things that struck me as odd about BSG though. We have proof of man's evolution here on Earth, so are they implying that Earth was "seeded" or something along the lines? I never did quite fully get it.

As an answer you're probably not going to like it, but it's possible that nBSG takes place in a "reality" where humans didn't evolve on Earth. It's something that fits in exactly with the original series (as well as a bunch of ancient astronaut/UFO religion stuff from the 70s).

It's also possible that both happened, and the knowledge of moving from Earth to Kobol was forgotten completely.

Ah, thanks for that. It hadn't occurred to me that they could all collectively forget over time where the true origin of the species was. But I suppose there is something similar in SW with the human homeworld and all, so it isn't without precedent in Sci-Fi.

[Gil Hamilton]

In one of the early blogs, RDM specifically spelled out that the "life here began out there" concept was one he brought to neoBSG, because he thought it was one of the big things that made BSG what it was.

Now, it's possible he's changed his mind in the last four or five years, but until we hear otherwise I think it's safe to assume that it is just as explicit as his "they found Earth, this is Earth, for reals, no fakes, they found Earth, there isn't some other planet that's actually Earth, they fucking found Earth do not even try to handwave this away" [may not be a direct quote] statement a little while back.

Then again, Count Iblis, the ships of light, wacky aliens, and them arriving at Earth during the beginning of the 80s were defining parts of the original Battlestar Galactica lore too. So where are they?

[Galvatron]

Ah, thanks for that. It hadn't occurred to me that they could all collectively forget over time where the true origin of the species was. But I suppose there is something similar in SW with the human homeworld and all, so it isn't without precedent in Sci-Fi.

In the miniseries, they seemed to regard even Kobol as a legend and Earth as little more than a fairy tale.

[apocolypse]

Ah, thanks for that. It hadn't occurred to me that they could all collectively forget over time where the true origin of the species was. But I suppose there is something similar in SW with the human homeworld and all, so it isn't without precedent in Sci-Fi.

In the miniseries, they seemed to regard even Kobol as a legend and Earth as little more than a fairy tale.

Good point too. I guess I always assumed the "life here began out there" statement as some sort of third person omniscient view, as opposed to the possibility that it could be a subjective thought. So it could be more like "life here began out there (after originating here, leaving, becoming a tale, and coming back)" or something along the lines. Thanks for that.

[Uraniun235]

In one of the early blogs, RDM specifically spelled out that the "life here began out there" concept was one he brought to neoBSG, because he thought it was one of the big things that made BSG what it was.

Now, it's possible he's changed his mind in the last four or five years, but until we hear otherwise I think it's safe to assume that it is just as explicit as his "they found Earth, this is Earth, for reals, no fakes, they found Earth, there isn't some other planet that's actually Earth, they fucking found Earth do not even try to handwave this away" [may not be a direct quote] statement a little while back.

Then again, Count Iblis, the ships of light, wacky aliens, and them arriving at Earth during the beginning of the 80s were defining parts of the original Battlestar Galactica lore too. So where are they?

Count Iblis may translate into the aforementioned "angels" which warned the Five of the impending nuclear war, and/or into Head Six/Head Baltar. oldBSG Baltar was a cackling villain, while neoBSG Baltar is a very sympathetic character - so too may the "Count Iblis" concept be adapted as such.

"Ships of light" is probably lumped with the "space aliens" under "things we can't do for fear of Edward James Olmos kicking our asses and quitting on the spot".

And oldBSG never reached Earth.



The serious answer is... what's your point? It's pretty blatantly obvious that there were some elements of the original series that the producers actually liked (hence... why they actually made the series), and some elements that they thought were retarded. Like the casino planet. Or the robot dog. There were other elements that they really liked - like Viper fighter craft. And the "twelve colonies" with their Zodiac-derived names. "Life here began out there" was something that Moore really liked, and (so he claimed) incorporated into the new series.


There's still time left in the season for a reversal, but until then I'm sticking with Moore's blog entry.

[Gil Hamilton]

The serious answer is... what's your point? It's pretty blatantly obvious that there were some elements of the original series that the producers actually liked (hence... why they actually made the series), and some elements that they thought were retarded. Like the casino planet. Or the robot dog. There were other elements that they really liked - like Viper fighter craft. And the "twelve colonies" with their Zodiac-derived names. "Life here began out there" was something that Moore really liked, and (so he claimed) incorporated into the new series.


There's still time left in the season for a reversal, but until then I'm sticking with Moore's blog entry.

The point is the whole "Life here began out there" thing is every bit as retarded as the casino planet or time travelling nazis or the robot daggit. Hence, if we are to take it somewhat seriously as presented, then it has to be justified somehow. Moore going "well, this is integral to series" lore is a weak excuse in light of the fact that they pitched all sorts lore that was no less stupid and every bit as intregal.

This aside, the series actually makes more sense with Earth being the original homeworld of humanity anyway, since it (A) gives a justifiable reason why the hell the 13th tribe travelled so far out of the way to go to Earth (as it might have had cultural significance 3000 years ago that was lost as the human homeworld) (B) explains why to the "modern day" of BSG, their culture still makes reference to Earth culture (such as their neo-pagan religious beliefs) and (C) explains the whole Arrow of Apollo/Tomb of Athena hologram thing that connects the zodiac constellations with the 12 colonies.

Besides, there isn't enough time for the 13th tribe to have colonized Earth and descended to become modern Earth human civilization. The show states that its only been 3000 years, which is vastly smaller than recorded human history. Life here couldn't have started out there in the time frame given.

[Johnathon_Chance]

I found this episode answered questions, but still left me puzzled. OK we now know how the "skinjobs" came to be, but who really created the centurions, and were they really Cylons, or were Cylons really humans who evolved into clones, and merged themselves with technology? I cant imagine a planet full of "people" that all look the same. For me there are still holes in the story that I had hoped by two episodes later were getting filled, but basically, the episode after this was boring, and was a waste of plot time, and last weeks was a bit more of the same with the exception of Boomer.

So were the Cylons actually a race of people who created the AI, shared their AI with the other 12 colonies, so that they became known as Cylon machines, and over time just Cylons, then after time(Think of the asguards) started cloning themselves after they found they could no longer reproduce, The AI got to the point where they were sentient and rebelled, going after the 12 colonies, and the Colonies in turn blamed the Cylons for this and nuked them all to hell which has left us to the point where we are now? Is the it all has happened before referring to the merging of Humans and Cylons/humans, or a never ending cycle of man vs machine?

[MarshalPurnell]

Kobolians create "skinjobs." The skinjobs become the 13th Tribe, leave for Earth 3000 years ago, and create their own race of metallic battlebots. The conflict between "skinjobs" and "Centurions" destroys Earth, and send the Five fleeing back toward Kobol to warn the other Tribes. Meanwhile, 2000 years ago, the Twelve Tribes are driven off Kobol and settle the colonies. They create their own, separate lineage of artificial life they name Cylons; these are the Centurions that the Five later run into. Since the "mental pattern" used to create the original Colonial Cylons came from the brain of a hidden monotheist cultist, the Colonial Cylons begin their existence with a belief in God, and their revolution may have religious overtones. The Five hook up with the Centurions on the basis of their shared religion, and help the Centurions become more "human" in accordance with the demands of God. That accounts for the Significant Seven (and the Missing Seventh), except their first child, Cavil, is a ginormous prick.

That clear?

[RedImperator]

I think it's best to think of Earth Cylons and humans as subspecies that diverged sometime in the past on Kobol; perhaps through deliberate engineering. The Cylon subspecies are nearly identical to humans, but are capable of bursts of exceptional strength, interfacing with computers, and of course, are capable of downloading into replacement bodies when they die. That subspecies settled Earth, and at some point, abandoned downloading in favor of traditional reproduction. They created robot slaves which eventually rebelled. Presumably, the Earth Cylons and their robots annihilated each other (or else the Colonials have another problem to worry about).

Five Earth Cylons downloaded into a relativistic sleeper ship and escaped the Sol system, and left in search of their cousins, in order to warn them not to abuse their robots. Unfortunately, when they finally found the Twelve Colonies, settled by descendants of the other Kobolian subspecies, the First Cylon War was underway. The First Five talked the Centurions into ending the war in exchange for help in creating human bodies. The First Five created eight models of "skinjob", based on their own subspecies, including resurrection.

Then John/Cavil somehow managed to kill and box the First Five, destroy the Daniel (#7) line except for the prototype, lobotomize the Centurions, establish a dictatorship of the skinjobs with him as first among equals, and begin to plan for a war of extermination against the 12 Colonies. It's worth noting that as fucked up as Cavil is, the other six surviving models were all on board with the plan, and to this point, the 4's and 5's are still with him. I don't know if that's because Cavil fucked them up or because the First Five just weren't very good parents, but whatever genocidal mania infests him, two other model lines are still afflicted with it.

[General Zod]

I think it's best to think of Earth Cylons and humans as subspecies that diverged sometime in the past on Kobol; perhaps through deliberate engineering. The Cylon subspecies are nearly identical to humans, but are capable of bursts of exceptional strength, interfacing with computers, and of course, are capable of downloading into replacement bodies when they die.

You forgot Cylon projection.

[Gandalf]

It's worth noting that as fucked up as Cavil is, the other six surviving models were all on board with the plan, and to this point, the 4's and 5's are still with him. I don't know if that's because Cavil fucked them up or because the First Five just weren't very good parents, but whatever genocidal mania infests him, two other model lines are still afflicted with it.

I'm reminded of something RDM said back when the show first started; The Cylons perceived there being only twelve different types of people, so only twelve types of skinjobs were made.

Though the revelation of the final five would but a hole in this, it might be that the Fours and Fives are just the "types" of people to buy into whatever Cavil's peddling.

[Vympel]

You'd think that, given what we know of their technology, they'd have set themselves up with a party in the brig ready to shoot the prisoners in the head the moment they spotted (again - why would they bring the resurrection ship to the battle?!) the resurrection ship, and then jumped out almost immediately rather than go out and fight a battle. But no, the Galactica crew had to be incompetent so that we could have some cheap suspense and some flashy CGI.

The only reason I can think of why they didn't do that was that if they put armed Marines in the brig they might give the game away and the Cylons might set about killing each other to save the species- but really, who's going to assume that someone on their own crew is going to suffocate them? Mistakes happen.