T:SCC 2x22 "Born To Run"

[Thanas]

Argh, damm edit timer has run out.

What I wanted to add:
- Cameron probably didn't use a time machine at all but simply ran away. Because the room is squaky clean with no effects. Which might mean that they are taking the Stark route. Maybe Weaver has prearranged a rendezvous point somewhere in the future?

[Imperial Overlord]

On the subject of "where is Cameron's brain?" John Henry's hardware was spitting out the message "I'm sorry John", which seems like something Cameron would say, not John Henry. That doesn't rule other scenarios out, but does suggest some part of or a copy of Cameron ended up with John Henry's hardware.

As for Cameron's actions, she has admitted she's keeping things from present John. Creating an alliance with/preserving the free machine faction may very well be a high priority secret directive.

I'm with Thanas in that John was definitely disappointed to see Allison when he realized she wasn't Cameron.

As for time travel, it was stated that it T1 that it was "something to due with the body's electrical fields" that allowed cyborgs and living beings to travel in time. If a T-1000 can duplicate that field, it doesn't need meat.

I'm quite happy they managed to bring Derek back.

[Peptuck]

- If we accept that this is all a loop (which I do not), this makes for an interesting possibility - does John Henry pass off the Cameron chip to her original body at some point so that she becomes herself "again"? That would make her the ultimate time traveller. Might make for some interesting fanfic - Peptuck?

Time travel tends to hurt my brain, but I definitely see the possibilities here. Though I tend to focus more on shipping myself (why do you guys think I was so squeeful when Allison reappeared? ) this could make for some interesting character pieces.

I think John's reaction might also partially be realization. He's already met "Allison" before, and now he's got virtual confirmation - and he might, just might, have an idea of what might happen to her. I have no idea what canon direction this might be taken, but I'm curious and have ideas for fanfic.

(as an aside, I can't help but be weirded by the eerie similarities between the ending to this episode and one of the SCC drabble fics I wrote. I usually tend to write in fandoms that I know aren't ongoing - e.g. Firefly - precisely because I know I'll end up clashing with canon at some point if I write in a fandom that is getting regularly updated, but this episode had the exact opposite effect.)

[Thanas]

On the subject of "where is Cameron's brain?" John Henry's hardware was spitting out the message "I'm sorry John", which seems like something Cameron would say, not John Henry. That doesn't rule other scenarios out, but does suggest some part of or a copy of Cameron ended up with John Henry's hardware.

Or a prerecorded message, which I would find more likely. If she did copy herself over, that would be monumentarily stupid.

As for Cameron's actions, she has admitted she's keeping things from present John. Creating an alliance with/preserving the free machine faction may very well be a high priority secret directive.

That might be true, but I don't really believe sacrificing herself and therefore removing the last layer of protection between him and the machines would have been the best option for that.

[Strider]

Oh well, at least we might finally get to see Summer Glau play a normal humanoid.

Summer Glau? A normal, unmodified, completely average mortal? Allison from Palmdale will probably be called as a Slayer or something at the end of S03E03. I wouldn't even be surprised.

[neoolong]

Yeah, if Joss Whedon was involved.

She played a regular human in THE UNIT. Summer Glau actually acts and stuff, you know.

[Imperial Overlord]

Or a prerecorded message, which I would find more likely. If she did copy herself over, that would be monumentarily stupid.

I do like the message idea better, although the possibility of future John sending someone back in time to "rescue" her is also a consideration.

As for Cameron's actions, she has admitted she's keeping things from present John. Creating an alliance with/preserving the free machine faction may very well be a high priority secret directive.

That might be true, but I don't really believe sacrificing herself and therefore removing the last layer of protection between him and the machines would have been the best option for that.[/quote]

If future John rated it as a high enough priority, I can see it. As for removing the last layer of protection the whole "sending agents back in time thing" may make that less of an issue.

[Thanas]

I do like the message idea better, although the possibility of future John sending someone back in time to "rescue" her is also a consideration.

Well, we didn't exactly see what was going on, so anything is possible...

That might be true, but I don't really believe sacrificing herself and therefore removing the last layer of protection between him and the machines would have been the best option for that.

If future John rated it as a high enough priority, I can see it. As for removing the last layer of protection the whole "sending agents back in time thing" may make that less of an issue.

From the timeline in which she comes from, the idea resulted in a disaster. I don't think that this was rated as a high priority, because when considering her mission parameters, this would mean that the resistance would know the third faction had access to time machines. And I doubt the third faction would tell them that willingly.

And yeah, the sending agents back in time would mean that the future John would know exactly where the Connors are. Which does not seem to be the case, because otherwise John would have more protection around him.

[Imperial Overlord]

From the timeline in which she comes from, the idea resulted in a disaster. I don't think that this was rated as a high priority, because when considering her mission parameters, this would mean that the resistance would know the third faction had access to time machines. And I doubt the third faction would tell them that willingly.

That was in the previous timeline. The whole point of the sacrifice is to effect a change which will affect the future.

And yeah, the sending agents back in time would mean that the future John would know exactly where the Connors are. Which does not seem to be the case, because otherwise John would have more protection around him.

Hard to do with shifting timelines. Buildings, unlike people in hiding, are static.

I must restate my desire for this series to be renewed. There's so many interesting directions they can take the show.

[Gerald Tarrant]

- I still believe Cameron has her own agenda and I do not believe she was sent by a third faction anymore. After all, she wouldn't have asked them to join her, nor would she have an underlying programming of kill all humans. This makes me believe she really is a Skynet agent gone rogue/having been reprogrammed. Which also makes the treatment of Derek and the other humans more sensible - a third faction wouldn't be able to have an aircraft carrier in the open, for instance. Maybe Skynet is trying to reprogram people like the resistence tries to reprogram terminators. Remember the "grays"? It would also explain why Cameron originally stated that she wanted to kill John and why she killed Allison.

I wonder about that. In Allison from Palmdale, the Allison infiltrator/replacement kills Allison in a fit of what looks like rage when she's lied to. Weaver also reacts with what looks like annoyance or anger to Ellison when it became clear he'd lied to her about something or other. That seems like more leeway and "emotion" than any of the other terminators except for Cromartie have gotten. And the common distaste regarding lying seems similar enough to be worth considering.

[Peptuck]

- I still believe Cameron has her own agenda and I do not believe she was sent by a third faction anymore. After all, she wouldn't have asked them to join her, nor would she have an underlying programming of kill all humans. This makes me believe she really is a Skynet agent gone rogue/having been reprogrammed. Which also makes the treatment of Derek and the other humans more sensible - a third faction wouldn't be able to have an aircraft carrier in the open, for instance. Maybe Skynet is trying to reprogram people like the resistence tries to reprogram terminators. Remember the "grays"? It would also explain why Cameron originally stated that she wanted to kill John and why she killed Allison.

I wonder about that. In Allison from Palmdale, the Allison infiltrator/replacement kills Allison in a fit of what looks like rage when she's lied to. Weaver also reacts with what looks like annoyance or anger to Ellison when it became clear he'd lied to her about something or other. That seems like more leeway and "emotion" than any of the other terminators except for Cromartie have gotten. And the common distaste regarding lying seems similar enough to be worth considering.

Especially considering when Cameron realizes Ellison really was lying to them about Cromartie's body. She pretty much comes the closest she's physically capable of to flipping out and murdering him in a burst of homocidal rage. She even says outright that she wants to kill him. No needs to kill him, or that his death is required. She wants to waste his ass.

Terminators do not like being lied to, for some reason.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's understandable that they don't like being lied to. Bad data fucks with their decision making process and they're all about achieving their objectives. They're very goal orientated machines and lying to them is essentially an information based sabotage attempt.

[Thanas]

- I still believe Cameron has her own agenda and I do not believe she was sent by a third faction anymore. After all, she wouldn't have asked them to join her, nor would she have an underlying programming of kill all humans. This makes me believe she really is a Skynet agent gone rogue/having been reprogrammed. Which also makes the treatment of Derek and the other humans more sensible - a third faction wouldn't be able to have an aircraft carrier in the open, for instance. Maybe Skynet is trying to reprogram people like the resistence tries to reprogram terminators. Remember the "grays"? It would also explain why Cameron originally stated that she wanted to kill John and why she killed Allison.

I wonder about that. In Allison from Palmdale, the Allison infiltrator/replacement kills Allison in a fit of what looks like rage when she's lied to. Weaver also reacts with what looks like annoyance or anger to Ellison when it became clear he'd lied to her about something or other. That seems like more leeway and "emotion" than any of the other terminators except for Cromartie have gotten. And the common distaste regarding lying seems similar enough to be worth considering.

Or it might speak to various changes in models, considering that Skynet upgraded them. I don't think you can deduce allegiance from reactions to being lied to, especially considering Cromartie also got quite upset with Sarah resisting and that girl lying to him.

[Thanas]

Some more musings:

- a hint that Cameron definitely isn't gone can be picked up in Adam Raised in Cain, in which JH explained that her chip is capable of storing an almost infinite amount of data as it was based on the human brain.

- John jumped over Judgment Day and therefore has no part in the formation of the human resistance.

- The show cannot really expect to have two different sets forever, so I am betting John will jump back to 2009 quite soon, probably as soon as he finds Cameron he's outta here. That is, if the show is getting renewed, something which might depend on the T4 returns.

[Crazedwraith]

You realise they can use it as an excuse to cancel T:SCC where Salvation does well or not right? If it doe well, they cancel the TV show to concentrate on the movies and not confused people by having two different time lines run at once. If it does poorly, people are obviously not interested in Terminator therefore there's no reason to have a terminator TV show.

[Thanas]

You realise they can use it as an excuse to cancel T:SCC where Salvation does well or not right? If it doe well, they cancel the TV show to concentrate on the movies and not confused people by having two different time lines run at once. If it does poorly, people are obviously not interested in Terminator therefore there's no reason to have a terminator TV show.

Yes, of course. But the likelihood of a studio wanting to cash in on a succesful movie franchise and follow up on that is a bit more likely than your first scenario, methinks.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm with Thanas in believing a strong showing for T4 might help the show survive. A good catch with the chip's near infinite capacity. Is there anyone here who doesn't want Cameron back? A couple of other points:

-Battlestar Galactica had its "B" plot for a whole season and Terminator has half its main cast in the future. They've also had episodes with large amounts of time being spent in the future. John could be there for a while.

-A resistance is going to form with or without John. While it's implied that he's one of its early leaders in other time lines, its the quality of his leadership which takes him to the top. Derek, Kyle's, and Allison's apparent age does suggest the time period is close to 2029 or thereabouts so it would be interesting to know how it is doing without him. Possibly Sarah was influential in its early successes, although Derek's lack of reaction to the Connor name does make that unlikely.

[Thanas]

I'm with Thanas in believing a strong showing for T4 might help the show survive. A good catch with the chip's near infinite capacity.

If it is just said as a throwaway, it is just a cool factoid. If it is said within the episode leading up to the finale, it is foreshadowing.

Is there anyone here who doesn't want Cameron back?

I am not that attached to the character as I have witnessed far better created AIs on TV. But she has kinda grown on to me (you just can't despise a robot who dances Ballet and looks like Summer Glau) despite the fact that I feared she would diminish the importance of Uncle Bob.

What matters most, however, is that there is no real resolution to any of her storylines and that there cannot be a real resolution to John's storyline either if she dies at this point. It makes no dramatic sense at all to just cut over half of the storylines of the show at this point. I don't really care if the show ends with her dead, Sknyet winning or John and Cameron sitting on a porch together. What matters to me is that there is a resolution.

A couple of other points:

-Battlestar Galactica had its "B" plot for a whole season and Terminator has half its main cast in the future. They've also had episodes with large amounts of time being spent in the future. John could be there for a while.

Shirley Manson and Brian Austin Green might not be main cast-members anymore after this season. And it really makes not much sense to seperate Sarah from John for a long time - her character has nothing else that justifies her existence on the show.

-A resistance is going to form with or without John. While it's implied that he's one of its early leaders in other time lines, its the quality of his leadership which takes him to the top. Derek, Kyle's, and Allison's apparent age does suggest the time period is close to 2029 or thereabouts so it would be interesting to know how it is doing without him. Possibly Sarah was influential in its early successes, although Derek's lack of reaction to the Connor name does make that unlikely.

Good catch with Allison's age.

I guess Kyle was the leader of the resistance. He is wearing the important cloak and his strut as well as his position when entering the room reminded me very much of a leader. Furthermore, Derek's tone implied to me that he was a subordinate to Kyle.

[Losonti Tokash]

Man, I miss Uncle Bob. I wish they had more references to him than crazy Silberman's rantings.

[neoolong]

I guess Kyle was the leader of the resistance. He is wearing the important cloak and his strut as well as his position when entering the room reminded me very much of a leader. Furthermore, Derek's tone implied to me that he was a subordinate to Kyle.

If the wiki is correct, Kyle, Martin Bedell, and formerly John, were in Century Work Camp which they (helped?) liberate in 2015, which was the start of the Resistance. No John, and Kyle is more of the major hero of the Resistance, and can easily help establish him as the leader.

[Imperial Overlord]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that Kyle is at least locally important in the Resistance. Connor was a/the global leader so that doesn't necessarily match up.

Agreed that Sarah doesn't have much purpose without John as of now, but the writers could use this opportunity to develop new facets for her character. Even in Briant Austin Green is no longer with the show (which would be a pity since we have a nice time travel episode that allows us to keep him around), that still leaves John and Cameron/Allison in the future and Sarah and Ellison in the past with John Henry unspecified. That's still half the main cast and that's before counting reoccurring characters like Kyle (or this timeline's Jesse and Rileyfor a real headfuck). The writers have shown they're willing to take the show in unusual directions and so I'm reluctant to make any firm calls when it comes to the show's direction after this twist.

[Thanas]

Man, I miss Uncle Bob. I wish they had more references to him than crazy Silberman's rantings.

They actually did have references to him, just non-spoken ones.

I guess Kyle was the leader of the resistance. He is wearing the important cloak and his strut as well as his position when entering the room reminded me very much of a leader. Furthermore, Derek's tone implied to me that he was a subordinate to Kyle.

If the wiki is correct, Kyle, Martin Bedell, and formerly John, were in Century Work Camp which they (helped?) liberate in 2015, which was the start of the Resistance. No John, and Kyle is more of the major hero of the Resistance, and can easily help establish him as the leader.

You are correct about the workcamp and that is a good catch that actually might make for a compelling argument why he is important.

Yeah, it's pretty clear that Kyle is at least locally important in the Resistance. Connor was a/the global leader so that doesn't necessarily match up.

Which is why Connor was important in the OTL as well - he was the one who organized the resistance. Which might still happen in this timeline as well.

Agreed that Sarah doesn't have much purpose without John as of now, but the writers could use this opportunity to develop new facets for her character.

This is what I am most wary about since the psychosis and Sarah standalone episodes were just...boring.

Even in Briant Austin Green is no longer with the show (which would be a pity since we have a nice time travel episode that allows us to keep him around), that still leaves John and Cameron/Allison in the future and Sarah and Ellison in the past with John Henry unspecified. That's still half the main cast and that's before counting reoccurring characters like Kyle (or this timeline's Jesse and Rileyfor a real headfuck). The writers have shown they're willing to take the show in unusual directions and so I'm reluctant to make any firm calls when it comes to the show's direction after this twist.

Good point.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Sarah headgames episodes did suck, but if she instead gets together with Ellison and begins organizing a proto-Resistance we could go into interesting territory. I'm with Thanas in that getting most of the main cast back together is probably the best route to go.

[Peptuck]

The Sarah headgames episodes did suck, but if she instead gets together with Ellison and begins organizing a proto-Resistance we could go into interesting territory.

I thought the Sarah headgame episodes varied in quality. "Earthlings" and "Good Wound" weren't that great, but I loved "Some Must Watch." I really think the problem with the series' middle was too much unnecessary stuff; its fine to have episodes like "Alpine Fields" or "Self-Made Man" that are more character-centric, but episodes like "Desert Cantos" were really dull and unnecessary. Honestly, they could have worked in all the relevant elements of "Good Wound" and "Desert Cantos" into "Some Must Watch" without too much hassle. Not to mention they stuck the three headgame eps back-to-back, which was a Bad Idea, especially coming off the mid-season break. If they'd been spread out more, it might have been much more tolerable.

Pull out/roll together all the Sarah Connor headgame episodes and axe "Desert Cantos," and this season would have been a lot better. I'm fully willing to forgive the entire Riley romance plot simply because of the absolutely awesome payoff it had.

[Paradox]

I wonder if Kyle had been old enough in the park to remember John's face when he gave the ball back to him at the end of Season 1.

It would definately be a WTF moment in the future when he sees this same kid again.