You are in control of Hell's Gate (RAR!) (Avatar spoilers)

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
Highlord Laan
Jedi Master
Posts: 1394
Joined: 2009-11-08 02:36pm
Location: Christo-fundie Theofascist Dominion of Nebraskistan

Re: You are in control of Hell's Gate (RAR!) (Avatar spoilers)

Post by Highlord Laan »

Bounty wrote:
In the time that Avatar takes place, I'm pretty sure that geologists and engineers are more than merely capable of working some magic in that area.
Except, of course, that those projects took place in optimal conditions, with a shitloads of personnel and highly specialized equipment, after years or decades of research and, at least in the Chunnel's case, failed attempts. You don't get that luxury on an alien world.

Completely agreed. An earthmoving project on that scale would take years, if not decades to plan. Then another decade to build and prepare for use. It'd be the kind of project that's undertaken when (more like "if") Hells Gate ever really becomes self-sufficient.

...That's what kind of bugged me. RDA was looking at the situation like they could make a short-term investment, cash in big, then take off. I never really got the feel that the idea of a large, permanent colony or space station was even being thought of.

Establish yourself first, then start expanding operations. Hell, if the original script is any guide at all, than there would have been people volunteering left and right in droves for a chance to even be a part of the project support teams, if for anything than to just get off the dying rock humankind turned earth into. Just imagine if the offer came up: "We're building a colony on the moon, then Mars. We need people of pretty much every industry and science willing to be the first wave. We're taking every possible precaution, but causalities are expected to be high."

I'd jump at that. Does the colony need an industrial laser technician?
Never underestimate the ingenuity and cruelty of the Irish.
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: You are in control of Hell's Gate (RAR!) (Avatar spoilers)

Post by Sarevok »

Two possibilities here.

1. The ISV Venture Star is supposedly capable of travelling at 0.7 C. There are twelve such starships in existence. This implies Earth has unholy amounts of energy at it's disposal and raises the question of why living conditions are so shitty on Earth. Unobtainium in this scenario is not a matter of life and death but foundation for future advances involving FTL communication and such. Diplomacy and negotiations make sense here since if you are advanced enough to causally romp into Alpha Centauri you have all the patience in the universe.

2. Maybe the Earth is really dying and the Venture Star and similar ships were last hope type mega projects. In this scenario an astronomical amounts of resources has poured into a risky gamble. The unobtainium must flow. Burning the forest from space is recommended course of action.
This scenario is less likely though. If fate of humanity was really at stake here the government would be running the show not some private company.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: You are in control of Hell's Gate (RAR!) (Avatar spoilers)

Post by Coyote »

Sarevok wrote:Two possibilities here.

1. The ISV Venture Star is supposedly capable of travelling at 0.7 C. There are twelve such starships in existence. This implies Earth has unholy amounts of energy at it's disposal and raises the question of why living conditions are so shitty on Earth.

Let's face it, we have fuckloads of food and energy here on Earth now (concentrated in "the West" for want of a better term) but there are still places where people are living in hellish squalor and life spans still climax in the 40's. I have a feeling that you are right, if "survival" were at stake this would be a government operation. The whole thing is probably being run by profit, and I think the references to "a dying Earth" are partially figurative more than literal.

Right now it just isn't very "profitable" to have clean air and water, so the corporations don't care and they comply with regulations only because the government forces them to. Imagine that kind of mindset allowed to run amuck for another 100 years or so, with government regulation being half-hearted ("it'll ruin the economy! Who cares if the sky is brown!") or inconsistent with different administrations, or with companies outright buying off regulators.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: You are in control of Hell's Gate (RAR!) (Avatar spoilers)

Post by Sarevok »

Well people with so much advanced science do not need a biosphere to live in. They can live in enclosed domed cities on a dead world, in asteroid colonies, moon bases etc. Some people may miss the old Earth but just like citizens of Coruscant they no longer require it. Some people would miss the natural enviroment greatly but they are not at any risk of dying.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Gramzamber
Jedi Knight
Posts: 777
Joined: 2009-10-09 01:49pm

Re: You are in control of Hell's Gate (RAR!) (Avatar spoilers)

Post by Gramzamber »

starfury wrote:
Then the UED will have control over its pet Overmind.

Wait, what? Crystals? Psi-emitters? Man. That sounds so familiar.

(where was this stuff in the movie? video games, blah
Just from the previews alone, I got that whole Starcraft vibe, I so intend to treat it as starcraft the Movie, hehhe.
If there's anything I feel Avatar draws near exact parallels to it's Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, as far as the nature of the world goes anyway.
The game's plot further cements this for me. Or maybe I think of these things too much.
"No it's just Anacrap coming to whine and do nothing." -Mike Nelson on Anakin Skywalker
GrayAnderson
Padawan Learner
Posts: 373
Joined: 2009-04-09 01:08pm

Re: You are in control of Hell's Gate (RAR!) (Avatar spoilers)

Post by GrayAnderson »

My response is very much an if/then to the situation on Earth. I assumed in early discussions, based on what was hinted at in the movie, basically what 880 spelled out. If that scenario is the case, then I do the following:
-I assume that I have a quota of Unobtanium to meet per year (assume it's the current extraction rate), and that I will be fired and replaced with someone (and probably sent home) if I can't meet it. If things are as desperate as 880 hints at, that's probably the case. This also implies that I can't suspend operations for a long period of time to set up a new base somewhere. That said, the final product is somewhat vague on all points, but I'm going to assume this is the case.
-I also assume that my current deposits are depleting; this might simply mean that we're having to pull lower and lower quality stuff out of the ground, or that we're coming to the effective end of the deposit, but I assume that I need a new source in a 5-6 year timescale.

With those two assumptions:
-I look to establish a secondary base in an area that is more security-friendly but accessible from the first base but which has access to Unobtanium deposits. I'm assuming a maximum of three-four hours by chopper between them from a fuel use stance, but even that might be a stretch. In that big of a circle (roughly 200-300 km), I should be able to find either a hill or a major break in the forest that meets the description; even a large riverside base would be acceptable if it is defensible. If this is a viable project, I do this to go after a "backup" source of unobtanium that I can ship back to the main base.
-If I can't find a good location that I can link up with the first base, or I simply can't get enough stuff to build the second base (I'm going to assume that at least some components need to be shipped in from Earth, even if it's just a bunch of computer hardware [or even software] that can't be replicated/sent electronically. Bear in mind that if a link is $7500 a byte and it takes a one-in-several-thousand shot per byte to get it through, I don't want to send complex software code [even in Notepad format] along and hope that I don't lose one or two key packets in the process; I might even try that, but for all I know it's going to hog my bandwidth for two weeks at a shot if I need a copy of Windows Pandora Edition and it might take three shots to get a functional copy across.), then we're on to plan B: I scope out other viable deposits not linked to hometrees that will generate enough excess production. I know this is quite possibly a hit-or-miss proposition, but I do look to link to other deposits within an operational radius.
-Now we get down to an ugly "if": I'm not sure how to avoid a clash with the Na'vi if I can't get necessary components for a secondary base, can't suspend operations long enough to move my base (or simply can't pull off a move, period), and can't get other deposits online to meet my quota in time. I'm up for suggestions here, but it is very possible that if all these things are the case then my back is against the wall.
Gramzamber wrote:
starfury wrote:
Then the UED will have control over its pet Overmind.

Wait, what? Crystals? Psi-emitters? Man. That sounds so familiar.

(where was this stuff in the movie? video games, blah
Just from the previews alone, I got that whole Starcraft vibe, I so intend to treat it as starcraft the Movie, hehhe.
If there's anything I feel Avatar draws near exact parallels to it's Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, as far as the nature of the world goes anyway.
The game's plot further cements this for me. Or maybe I think of these things too much.
You know, I've got to say that you're not the first person who's had that thought. And I say this as someone who has never really enjoyed the idea of seeking the Transcendence ending (as I think one likely loses something fundamentally human in the process).

Anyone up for a Pandora mod for SMAC?
Post Reply