Galactica type battlestar vs McKenna class WarShip

[PainRack]

My previous arguements may have been knee-jerk and attempts at throwing chaff, but i assure you, every post i make now is done after reference to the appropriate reference books/material.

When i made my F-4 remark, i was trying to say that an Iranian F-4 will not have at its disposal the full range of weapons that are/have been available to an USAF F-4, and that the ground crew competency and pilot availability dictates how many missions said aircraft can fly in a day. Just as an example, if the F-4 drops 12 mk82 bombs a mission, and the Iranian F-4 does 3 missions a day, the USAF 5 missions a day, that is a large difference between ordnance on target.

So? That point has no rebuttal value whatsoever when the point being made was weapons firepower.

I have proven the point that an 3072 HGR causes more damage than an 2750 basic Gauss Rifle.

Except the point has no value whatsoever in the original context. The warship of 3072 is STILL dealing out kt weapons firepower. Similarly, the Gauss rifle of 3072 is still the same damage range of 2750.

My contention was that time era dictates the available range of equipment which CAN be fitted on a vessel.

And?No one disagrees. Is this supposed to be a rebuttal or are you trying to elaborate a point here?
If so, you might want to actually create a point.... as opposed to just attempting to rebut a non existent strawman.

You are attempting to tell me that IF the Mckenna has Manei-Dominei or WOB-tech battlearmor, any attempts of boarding or repelling boarders have no effect? Are you serious?

I'm serious, because in nBSG has no serious boarding attempts. What's next? The McKenna can carry a regiment of mechs, so those mechs can be used in PD against enemy boarders?

You are then telling me, that in an dogfight a best-cased Clan aerofighter with superior weapons like ive outlined above, heat dissipation, larger armor factor efficiency base on weight, targeting computer, Artemis IV FCS and ECM suite/NARC beacon against an equivalent IS 3025 aerofighter both piloted by pilots of equal skill, the extra tech advantage does not make a difference?

In universe, the difference is neglible. Seriously. You're disagreeing with both established game fluff and game derived mechanics here.

The Clans standard weapons is more powerful, but its negated partially by the additional heat. They can and savy players do use the weight difference to gain an advantage but its isn't as dramatic as on the ground. Its entirely possible for a Lvl 2 IS AT to defeat an enemy aerospace fighter one on one. And of course, ignores the in universe fluff text.

Are you then discounting the advantages given by the NARC beacon, Targ Comp, and pulse lasers against a baseline IS 3025 fighter? Are you ignoring the Pulse laser -2 to hit, roll, NARC add 2 to missle hit roll, Targeting computer -1 to direct fire weapons? or the LB- autocannons "shotgun effect""? are you really serious? I will concede that the basic pilot skill may be the same, but saying that the Red Baron in his WW1 biplane is evenly matched against an WW2 late flight figther is ridiculous.

Ah yes. The tech wank. You know, back in 1996, there's a name for players like you. You're so bedazzled by the lostech capabilities that you actually ignore that its the characteristics that count.
Hell, its how I survived against Clan players one on one in a lvl 2 match.

And of course, no one is discounting the advantages, so keep fucking the strawman somewhere private, k?

I have consistently attempted to show that just as an example, the 1st Lyran Royal Guards fields a totally different force in the
3025, 3039, 3050, 3055, 3058, 3060,3067, 3072 time eras. By taking the random mech assignment tables as a benchmark of commonly available units in said timeline, we get a completely different force composition with accordingly different weapons capability. As an example, the Lyran unit in 3025 would not be able to employ Fenris battle armor or light engines or heavy gauss rifles. They would not also be able to use the WLF-3S Wolfhound battlemech which was produced in the Civil War era or the latest WLF-4W Wolfhound.

Only in the unit tables.In universe, the units don't change that fast. Pointing to the unit table is absurd.

The ingame fluff is dramatically different with regards to the availability of units and rarity of equipment. For example, the Phoenix upgrade to the Rifleman was driven by the lack of parts due to the Civil War disrupting supply lines.
Hell, let's just utterly disprove your argument.

2nd Sword of Light rolls on Table A.
Scenario 1, Hunting the Hunter, Dragon Roars.
DRG-5k Grand Dragon. Tai-i shigeru hirotsu

Third Benjamin Regulars rolls on Table C.
Scenario 2, Wild Justice
They receive mechs on higher Tables, namely Komodo and Raptors. An example of the table not having predictive powers, but let's be fair and discount this as this is a example shows the ubiquity of equipment as opposed to its rarity.

Scenario 8, Baiting the Jaguar Eleventh Alshain Avengers, Table B.
Yet, they receive lesser equipped mechs such as the Katana, Marauder and Orion.

Scenario 10, 300 Spartans, Ryuken Go, Table A.
Panther, Phoenix Hawk.

Battleforce scenario, In the Dragon Coils.
Eigth Sword of Light, 1st Battalion.
Hatamato Chi, Banshee, Phoenix Hawk, Warhammer, Awesome, Marauder.

To use the Unit Tables to suggest that all of the mechs in a regiment has been upgraded to new mechs is bollocks.

I have not ignored the basic idea that if "A" faction manufactures "B" type of weapon/equipment, logically then that that faction has easier access to the weapon/equipment. This is in line with RL and btech ingame rules

Who gives a fuck? You attempted to rebut the point that HGR are relatively rare in 3062. Prove that it isn't so.

Nobody has addressed the issue of boarding parties/repelling boarders because in modern 21st century naval combat, when does a boarding party even manage to get in range of the warship? This idea isnt even actively pushed around because modern Close-in Weapons Systems will make short work of any boarding parties. However in Sci-fi naval context just in Btech alone, it has been shown that troops can and do take over WarShips.

Really?
Even the capture of dropships is a risky business that caused elite AFFS and irregular Liao units considerable casualties in the Chaos March.

3055 - Gray Death Legion's battle taxi assault
3058 - DEST troops take over CGB warship

Jumpship for both, and in the first, it was a covert operation that succeeded due to surprise and the Ares convention.

New Ronin incursions: Elementals on their own floating in Zero-g assault and capture a Kirishima cruiser

A unit operating with no aerospace and PD support and caught by surprise.

Civil War - Avalon-cruiser over Hesperus succumbs to loyalist marines

Skye rebels lost 3 Fox corvettes...... against a cruiser with known weaknesses in PD and without the dedicated dropship/fighter support...... and of course, captured BY surprise in a sneak attack.

And as an asides, the idea of boarding is alive and well in Star Wars and WH40K as well. Even though on 21st century earth it is no longer feasible, it doesnt mean a sci-fi navy doesnt have to content with it.

With teleporters. What bearing does this has in the debate here?

I was doing that post in respects to painracks statment that "A Naval PPC or even an standard PPC in 2750, 3025 and 3072 has no fucking difference in terms of damage. " I have proven that availble tech in recent eras have differences in terms of damage because unlike then, we can employ other type of PPCs.

Are you an idiot? The argument was NAVAL PPC or STANDARD PPC. Not Standard PPC vs Heavy PPC.
Because arguing that a Heavy PPC is more powerful than a standard PPC is a no shit sherlock statement.
Again, you ATTEMPTED to rebut my Warship weapons are only kiloton in level by arguing that different tech eras has DIFFERENT firepower. SHOW IT YOU FUCKING DIPSHIT.

Nobody is fucking your strawman that a Heavy PPC is more powerful than a Standard PPC.
Of course, even if I am kind and increase the parameters to include newer weapons, a Heavy PPC in warship parlance remains the same. The Heavy PPC only extends to the aerospace and dropship weapons. Once you divide it by ten via standard, the differences is neglible.
And OF COURSE, the damage increase is not in a full order of magnitude, which is what you need in order to actually rebut my Warship weapons are kiloton event. But its clear you have no idea what the argument is anymore.

10 capital points of damage The entry further says "The largest capital missile in common use" and "a larger target hit by a Kraken will take severe damage from the massive warhead it carries."

I have gone over all existing capital ship details in detaild and Kraken-Ts are not present on any SLDF or Clantech warships. It only came into use around 3058 , and it is now present on Overlord-A3 and Excalibur Pocket warships. WHICH are NOT available in a 2750 timeline scenario.

Yippee.
Now use that to show that Warship weapons are MT in level then you dipshit.

Again, in bold: THE OPERATION OF FULLY AUTOMATED SYSTEMS DOES NOT RELY ON THE SKILL OF THE OPERATOR. That is WHY they are fully automated. Congratulations, you have proven yourself being completley retarded or a fucking liar. Pick your favorite.

Let's be fair. An idiocy parse of his stance could be that an inexperienced crew will take much longer to recognise when and where to fire an automated weapon than an experienced crew.

[Eviscerator]

To inject a note of levity and as an olive branch to pain rack, i show you an Republic Of Singapore Navy recruitment ad. In this ad they show the difference between a civilian manned CIC and an professionally manned CIC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAqVTFd4cOo

It takes a special person to do this kind of job. indeed.

[PainRack]

You have, in previous posts made the statements of " This translates over to the Jihad, their only tech advantage over SL warships are in terms of construction exotics."which completely glossed over the Super-KF Drive and "The LCS Invincible did not gain a *10 jump in firepower just because the WOB got their paws on her."

What DO you call the Super KF drive?Construction exotics. And of course, the KF drive has no fucking bearing whatsoever on the warship firepower.
And the LCS invincible TRULY did not gain a *10 jump in firepower when the WOB got their paws on her.

Given stats from TR:3075 of a total ïntended crewing level of 474 (all ranks), this means that the Invincible was operating at a half crew level. Even allowing for Veterancy, old crew do not move as crisply or have the equal strength of crew half their age. This has direct consequence as ive repeated Ad nauseum.

This has no bearing whatsoever on the warship firepower. Seriously.

From gathered information we know that 2853 Invincible was battered by the succession wars and in no way did it resemble the stats of the original Tharkad-class cruiser design. Even allowing a very generous base 10% reduction in weapons functionality, the WOBS Invincible that reappeared over Tharkad was completely refitted to the stats of the original Tharkad blueprint as intended in 2690. And they've added a LF battery - a feature not present on any of the original Tharkad-class ships which gives it an additonal 50LY jump. An extra jump, i hear comes in very handy whether transiting to or egressing from a planet.

So? What was the point you're trying to prove? That warship weapons are MT in level because of the tech era.
You have done absolutely nothing to do this.

If the argument is that oh, refitted warships has different capabilities, that's a no shit sherlock statement. One that I repeat for the umpteenth time, NO ONE DISAGREES WITH.

Right now, the only reason why anyone is talking to you is that even as you go off on a totally different tangent,you're spouting rubbish to defend your viewpoints, which is the issues being attacked.

For example, you seem to be arguing that the LCS Invincible was a derelict with miminal combat effectiveness. Yet, this derelict warship broke the naval blockade at Hespersus.

To inject a note of levity and as an olive branch to pain rack, i show you an Republic Of Singapore Navy recruitment ad. In this ad they show the difference between a civilian manned CIC and an professionally manned CIC.

Who gives a fuck? Its clear that what you actually INTEND to argue is that a better trained crew will react faster in combat than an untrained crew. This has of course, no actual bearing on the ROF of a gun battery.

[Eviscerator]

So? That point has no rebuttal value whatsoever when the point being made was weapons firepower.

Except the point has no value whatsoever in the original context. The warship of 3072 is STILL dealing out kt weapons firepower. Similarly, the Gauss rifle of 3072 is still the same damage range of 2750.

You are attempting to tell me that IF the Mckenna has Manei-Dominei or WOB-tech battlearmor, any attempts of boarding or repelling boarders have no effect? Are you serious?

I'm serious, because in nBSG has no serious boarding attempts. What's next? The McKenna can carry a regiment of mechs, so those mechs can be used in PD against enemy boarders?

In universe, the difference is neglible. Seriously. You're disagreeing with both established game fluff and game derived mechanics here.

I have consistently attempted to show that just as an example, the 1st Lyran Royal Guards fields a totally different force in the
3025, 3039, 3050, 3055, 3058, 3060,3067, 3072 time eras. By taking the random mech assignment tables as a benchmark of commonly available units in said timeline, we get a completely different force composition with accordingly different weapons capability. As an example, the Lyran unit in 3025 would not be able to employ Fenris battle armor or light engines or heavy gauss rifles. They would not also be able to use the WLF-3S Wolfhound battlemech which was produced in the Civil War era or the latest WLF-4W Wolfhound.

Only in the unit tables.In universe, the units don't change that fast. Pointing to the unit table is absurd.

Who gives a fuck? You attempted to rebut the point that HGR are relatively rare in 3062. Prove that it isn't so.

[Even the capture of dropships is a risky business that caused elite AFFS and irregular Liao units considerable casualties in the Chaos March.

3055 - Gray Death Legion's battle taxi assault
3058 - DEST troops take over CGB warship

Jumpship for both, and in the first, it was a covert operation that succeeded due to surprise and the Ares convention.

New Ronin incursions: Elementals on their own floating in Zero-g assault and capture a Kirishima cruiser

A unit operating with no aerospace and PD support and caught by surprise.

With teleporters. What bearing does this has in the debate here?

I was doing that post in respects to painracks statment that "A Naval PPC or even an standard PPC in 2750, 3025 and 3072 has no fucking difference in terms of damage. " I have proven that availble tech in recent eras have differences in terms of damage because unlike then, we can employ other type of PPCs.

Are you an idiot? The argument was NAVAL PPC or STANDARD PPC. Not Standard PPC vs Heavy PPC.
Because arguing that a Heavy PPC is more powerful than a standard PPC is a no shit sherlock statement.
Again, you ATTEMPTED to rebut my Warship weapons are only kiloton in level by arguing that different tech eras has DIFFERENT firepower. SHOW IT YOU FUCKING DIPSHIT.

Nobody is fucking your strawman that a Heavy PPC is more powerful than a Standard PPC.
Of course, even if I am kind and increase the parameters to include newer weapons, a Heavy PPC in warship parlance remains the same. The Heavy PPC only extends to the aerospace and dropship weapons. Once you divide it by ten via standard, the differences is neglible.
And OF COURSE, the damage increase is not in a full order of magnitude, which is what you need in order to actually rebut my Warship weapons are kiloton event. But its clear you have no idea what the argument is anymore.

10 capital points of damage The entry further says "The largest capital missile in common use" and "a larger target hit by a Kraken will take severe damage from the massive warhead it carries."

I have gone over all existing capital ship details in detaild and Kraken-Ts are not present on any SLDF or Clantech warships. It only came into use around 3058 , and it is now present on Overlord-A3 and Excalibur Pocket warships. WHICH are NOT available in a 2750 timeline scenario.

Yippee.
Now use that to show that Warship weapons are MT in level then you dipshit.

[.

The definition of firepower is "ordnance on target" , not "ordnance out the barrel". I have attempted to show that an unit does not deliver the same amount of ordnance of target than another similiar unit in service to another nation.

The warship of 3072 CAN employ the additional equipment like advanced anti-fighter weapons, super-jump drive, etc. May i remind you that the course of Btech history was changed when Tyra Miraborg rammed the bridge of the Dire Wolf?

Just because in an game universe does not have tech or units that allow boarding attempts does not mean you must not take it into account when you bring an unit from another universe into the battle. The available tech differs from universe to universe.

I have made the point that all the negatives and pluses conferred by advanced tech do make an difference to the battle when both pilots are of equal skill. Your point that Clantech only allows for XL engines or construction exotics fails to take into account that clan XL = 4 extra criticals, IS = 6 extra criticals, and that IS constructions exotics take up double the available space versus clan exotics.

You said you survived one on one against a clan player in a level 2 match. is this Clan attacker Level 2, IS defender Level 2, or Clan Level 2 or IS defender Level 1? You attempted to tell me that you compared level 1 IS tech fighters to level 2 Clantech previously.

The stated incidents which i have shown are all attempts made during combat, and in several instances attempts were made to repel boarders. This is stated in The Dying Time, the appropriate novels, sourcebooks etc etc. You are also handwaving that WOBS Invincible is now LCS Invincible again thanks to "brave actions of marines". The description of the incident during the Ronin Incursions of an Kirishima being captured shows that the Warship did fire on the Elementals.

Yes, the skye rebels lost 3 corvettes, but did they achieve space superiority and were able to use said cruiser to conduct bombardment?

Im not an idiot and i have showed that weapons available now are more powerful that weapons available then

WH40K boarding actions are not completely conducted using teleporters, there are many instances of boarding torpedoes being used or other craft to deliver troops to vessel. In the novel Dark Creed, Word Bearers succeed in taking over a fully manned Astartes Battle Barge. They Did Not Teleport.

I have shown that the Kraken missile is a missile that was NOT available in SLDF service and it causes more damage than missiles then in service.

The Super-KF Drive is not an construction exotic, and it allows "unlimited" jump range. Thereotically, if an real-time HPG transmision was sent to a WOB base that has Super-KF equipped vessels, they can order an jump and accept that they will lost a percentage of their force. The attacking force does not expect reinforcements immediately.

You are ignoring my statements that crew competency and crewing levels have no bearing on warship capability and still beating the FIREPOWER argument. You accept that the derelict warship broke the blockade at hesperus but do not accept that the very same warship that reappeared hundreds of years later was brought back up to "book" specifications.

ROF does not equate rounds hitting target. Are you discounting pilot piloting/gunnery skill now even regarding basic battlemech combat?

[Eviscerator]

My point on availability is that if country A makes an system B, the forces of country A have first crack at the system.

Let's hypothesise an scenario:
The commanding officer of an elite lyran unit circa 3062 situated on a planet that has an existing stock of HGRs or makes them gets his request fufilled as soon as possible.
The commanding officer of an militia unit in the same timeline situated on the periphery, even if his request gets fulfilled, it must be delivered to him.
And the Home Clan Ristar Mechwarrior must wait for an HGR to be salvaged from an IS battlefield, have it repaired, and then delivered to him.

Against:
An request is made during the war of 3039 by melissa steiner-davion for an "railgun which fires quarter ton projectiles", and i need it yesterday! The scientists tell her It Cant Be Done.

[PainRack]

The definition of firepower is "ordnance on target" , not "ordnance out the barrel". I have attempted to show that an unit does not deliver the same amount of ordnance of target than another similiar unit in service to another nation.

No. The definition of firepower in a technical analysis is the amount of damage it does to the target. Ordance on target or ordance out the barrel has bearing only in the sense that it increases the amount of damage done to the target.

The warship of 3072 CAN employ the additional equipment like advanced anti-fighter weapons, super-jump drive, etc. May i remind you that the course of Btech history was changed when Tyra Miraborg rammed the bridge of the Dire Wolf?

And again, may I remind you that newer technologies existing in 3072 is not a bone of contention?

Just because in an game universe does not have tech or units that allow boarding attempts does not mean you must not take it into account when you bring an unit from another universe into the battle. The available tech differs from universe to universe.

lol. Do you know WHY boarding events are so difficult in the Btech universe? Because of something called aerospace interdiction. What is the scenario here? Oh yeah. You're facing another carrier with Raptors and shit.

I have made the point that all the negatives and pluses conferred by advanced tech do make an difference to the battle when both pilots are of equal skill. Your point that Clantech only allows for XL engines or construction exotics fails to take into account that clan XL = 4 extra criticals, IS = 6 extra criticals, and that IS constructions exotics take up double the available space versus clan exotics.

NO. My argument is that the improvement in technology do not make a drastic difference, as seen in both in universe fluff and game mechanics.

You said you survived one on one against a clan player in a level 2 match. is this Clan attacker Level 2, IS defender Level 2, or Clan Level 2 or IS defender Level 1? You attempted to tell me that you compared level 1 IS tech fighters to level 2 Clantech previously.

I routinely killed noob Clan players in a Level 2 IS mech.
Going up against novice players, ignoring luck, its usually MAD, although i do not go for BV or tonnage moderation. Against noob Clan players, I have taken a 25 ton Nexus and achieved a MAD mission kill against a 45 ton Pouncer.
The reasons are the exact same reasons you're displaying. Noob players do not understand that its not the technology that matters, its the characteristics. An overheating Pouncer is vulnerable, even against an ass-shit mech like the Nexus. Seriously, somebody please tell me why in the name of all that's holy Focht comissioned the Raijin and the Nexus?

The stated incidents which i have shown are all attempts made during combat, and in several instances attempts were made to repel boarders. This is stated in The Dying Time, the appropriate novels, sourcebooks etc etc.

1. The GDL attack went over with literally no opposition against a civilian ship.
2. The GB Jumpship was the same.

You are also handwaving that WOBS Invincible is now LCS Invincible again thanks to "brave actions of marines".

A stationary target. And of course, heavy casualties amongst the boarders.

The description of the incident during the Ronin Incursions of an Kirishima being captured shows that the Warship did fire on the Elementals.

They fired fucking CAPITAL weapons on Elementals. Its even mentioned that this was insane, and the only reason why it was successfully pulled off was that the green crew didn't notice said Elementals until it was too late.

Yes, the skye rebels lost 3 corvettes, but did they achieve space superiority and were able to use said cruiser to conduct bombardment?

So? The fact remains that boarding is a highly dangerous tactic that invariably requires surprise or the lack of interdiction to successfully pull off.

Im not an idiot and i have showed that weapons available now are more powerful that weapons available then

Considering that the bone of contention was your attempt to argue that Warships can deal MT levels because of the tech era, smoke it.

Its gets even more irritating because all the examples you post are aerospace and when converted over to capital damage, its only a minute difference.

I have shown that the Kraken missile is a missile that was NOT available in SLDF service and it causes more damage than missiles then in service.

And since when was this a point of contention?

The Super-KF Drive is not an construction exotic, and it allows "unlimited" jump range.

With no bearing on the firepower of the warship. I repeat, no bearing on the FIREPOWER of the warship.

You are ignoring my statements that crew competency and crewing levels have no bearing on warship capability and still beating the FIREPOWER argument.

Because nobody is contesting that fact. If you wish to masturbate, please do so in your own time.

You accept that the derelict warship broke the blockade at hesperus but do not accept that the very same warship that reappeared hundreds of years later was brought back up to "book" specifications.

So? Its not as if I didn't know that fact, or that the Invincible was refitted with equipment the Lyrans didn't have.

ROF does not equate rounds hitting target. Are you discounting pilot piloting/gunnery skill now even regarding basic battlemech combat?

Who GIVES a fuck? You attempted to argue that crew veterency has an effect on the ROF of automated weapons. It clearly doesn't. What it does have is on the reaction of said crews to firing said weapons.

I think I have been very generous in actually extending the argument to include what is your intended thrust as opposed to what is your actual communicated point or the point that's actually being discussed, but I find it extremely irritating that you're trying to insuinate strawman positions to me just so you can claim victory.

My point on availability is that if country A makes an system B, the forces of country A have first crack at the system.

Who gives a fuck? You attempted to REBUT my point that HGR are relatively rare in 3062. Address my point or I take this as a fucking concession.

[Eviscerator]

No. The definition of firepower in a technical analysis is the amount of damage it does to the target. Ordance on target or ordance out the barrel has bearing only in the sense that it increases the amount of damage done to the target.

You are right now telling me that a green mech pilot can fire an weapon and hit a moving target accurately in the same way an elite pilot like kai allard-liao can? The weapon produces X amount of energy but what good is tha energy if it doesnt hit the intended target?

Boarding events are difficult in the Btech universe but they DO happen and several times in fact. Show me an modern day analog where an prepared, and able to fire on boarders Warship was boarded while on the sea.

You are handwaving all of the advantages which pulse lasers, and targeting computers confer to a pilot? all of which are explicitly stated both in game and in novels?

Let's be clear, the statement of "I routinely killed noob Clan players in a Level 2 IS mech." is very different from "i routinely killed elite Clan players in an Level 1 IS mech. " This is like saying, i routinely shoot down Zero fighters when i am in my F-16A fighter. You further say that you have achieved victories against beginner clan players in a mech with disadvantages, not victories against equal or better skilled players in equal mechs.

The GB Jumpship DID NOT Have a full complement of Elementals to repel boarders. Argh. You are also discounting a whole table in TR:3057 which gives formulae for calculating times it take to repel or accomplish an boarding action

I dropped the whole energy level of warship weapons several posts ago if you didn't notice. And you are actually telling me that 10 points of Capital damage against 8 points of capital damage is the same.

The bearing of the super-jump drive is that the vessel can arrive IMMEDIATELY. Like, i send the call for help now, and reinforcements arrive 10 minutes later. I could have 25 Warships at an base 25 light years away, all in fully operational conditions EXCEPT that their JUMP DRIVES DO NOT WORK and they do the planet which is being attacked within standard jump range No Good At All.

It was an point of contention when u tried to say that there is no difference at all in warship weapons wef: Now and Then.

Im trying to tell you that when a country develops or acquires a new military system with improved capabilities, the elite units get issued the units first, regular units later, and militia-level units MUCH later. Let's just use an example of issue levels in singapore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR_21 the prototype was showcased at exhibitions approx 10 years ago, it entered regular service about 3- 4 years ago and this is the baseline rifle. Issue of the weapon has so far been to Guards units or Infantry units etc, and the 23rd Battalion Singapore Artillery still uses 1970's vintage M16S1s. Additionally, Guards unit or the Commandoes are not issued baseline SAR21s, they are issued variants which have mounts for night vision sights, etc etc.

Tell me now that 2 PDF's commander in the year 2001 could request SAR21s for his unit and get his request fulfilled.
I have shown that Rate Of Fire of an system is the same but rounds hitting the target require skill on the part of the operator.

[PainRack]

You are right now telling me that a green mech pilot can fire an weapon and hit a moving target accurately in the same way an elite pilot like kai allard-liao can? The weapon produces X amount of energy but what good is tha energy if it doesnt hit the intended target?

And? Nobody is arguing that point. Making that statement is a no shit sherlock statement.

Let me make this clear to you. Yes. Skills matter. The type of weapons differ.
Nobody is arguing otherwise.

Boarding events are difficult in the Btech universe but they DO happen and several times in fact. Show me an modern day analog where an prepared, and able to fire on boarders Warship was boarded while on the sea.

Why SHOULD I?
The point in contention is that boarding actions will have little bearing here because the BT side will find it difficult to board the Basestar due to the lack of surprise and the existence of fighters defending the Basestar.
And of course, boarding actions in and as of itself is not a ubiquitous action but something relatively "rare" in the Btech universe.

You are handwaving all of the advantages which pulse lasers, and targeting computers confer to a pilot? all of which are explicitly stated both in game and in novels?

its funny. You're utterly willing to attribute ingame fluff regarding pulse lasers and shit, but you're also utterly unwilling to admit that Theodore Kurita did say that the IS aerospace arm is the arm most able to meet the Clans equally. Or subsequent sourcebooks.

Let's be clear, the statement of "I routinely killed noob Clan players in a Level 2 IS mech." is very different from "i routinely killed elite Clan players in an Level 1 IS mech. " This is like saying, i routinely shoot down Zero fighters when i am in my F-16A fighter. You further say that you have achieved victories against beginner clan players in a mech with disadvantages, not victories against equal or better skilled players in equal mechs.

lol. Let's be VERY clear. The reason why I beat the noob player in the Pouncer, even though he had the tech advantage, had the weight advantage and we were both fielding 2/3 pilots...... is because he has the exact same blinder on him as you do. Namely, "newer=better". Its not. Its the characteristics and performances that count.

I like to make it clear that the whole point of this short story is not "IS mechs can beat Clan mechs one on one". The point is that you're displaying the exact same mistakes noob players make. That newer= better. I made the exact same mistakes before, using IS ER PPC and IS med pulse lasers for everything.

The GB Jumpship DID NOT Have a full complement of Elementals to repel boarders. Argh. You are also discounting a whole table in TR:3057 which gives formulae for calculating times it take to repel or accomplish an boarding action

You apparently missed the point that the issues in contention is that boarding wasn't easy because of PD, aerospace fighters and etc. Why is it you utterly ignored the DCMS trooper tactical evaluation at Defiance that it would had been suicide to board a Clan Warship, or their sigh of relief when told their target, the Winter Wind was a Invader Jumpship?

I dropped the whole energy level of warship weapons several posts ago if you didn't notice.

I did. The problem is, you're still trying to fuck the same strawman you did then.
I said this once before.
When I'm talking about show weapons differences, I'm talking about show the difference between a 2750 standard PPC and a 3072 standard PPC. Not a heavy PPC, which HAS more damage.
And of course, the fact STILL remains that even if I were to grant you this, the increase in damage is so minute against warships that its not definitive.
ANd of course that even if we WERE to talk about Kraken missiles, it still won't help youi reach the intended goal of achieving MT level firepower.
Because guess what dipshit? Nobody here is arguing that the Kraken missile isn't more powerful than the Killer Whale!!!!!!!!

It was an point of contention when u tried to say that there is no difference at all in warship weapons wef: Now and Then.

Right. Between a Standard PPC and a Standard PPC. Or a laser and a laser. Not between TWO DIFFERENT WEAPONS TYPE.
Because that was WHAT you were trying to rebut you fucking piece of horseshit motherfucker.

You're now trying to create a motherfucking red herring strawman just so you can gain an invisible victory against an non-existent argument.NOBODY FUCKING argued that a Heavy PPC doesn't do more damage than a PPC. FUCK. I WAS THE FIRST ONE HERE TO ACTUALLY LIST THAT FACT.

Last post on this since its obvious you're fucking trolling into a WOI here. If you're going to concede weapons firepower, stop this "different weapons have different firepower" horseshit ride because nobody here has ACTUALLY argued otherwise.

Im trying to tell you that when a country develops or acquires a new military system with improved capabilities, the elite units get issued the units first, regular units later, and militia-level units MUCH later.

Who gives a FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU ATTEMPTED TO REBUT HGR ARE RARE IN 3062. PUT UP OR SHUT THE FUCK UP!

FUCK. I can even point to how Celestial mechs are fucking RARE in the Jihad right fucking now as of 3070 if you wish to. I repeat, even if we WERE to extend the argument to include different weapons type, the exotic tech is rare enough that its not going to play a definitive role in gaining firepower. Minute as it is. Plasma Rifles and the like? They're ALL RARE. RARE.RARE.RARE.RARE.RARE.RARE.RARE.RARE.RARE.RARE.

I have shown that Rate Of Fire of an system is the same but rounds hitting the target require skill on the part of the operator.

BUT. YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKER. You TRIED TO ARGUE THAT EXPERIENCE= GREATER ROF ON AUTOMATED WEAPONS.
STOP MOTHER FUCKING ABUSING TECHNICAL TERMS YOU LANJIAO! FUCKING COCKANAN.

[Eviscerator]

Im going to just put a short rebuttal:

Historical: War Of 3039 lists stats for experimental level 2 tech. most of which have disadvantages against usual IS Level 2 tech.
So an IS ER LL (experimental) is rare in an 3039 timeframe.

The ER large laser is not rare in an 3050, or 3055 timeframe and by 3060 is now regular issue.

And to who gives a Foxtrot, the people on the front line or under attack give a foxtrot.
Exotic tech is not rare among own-faction units that enjoy higher issue priorities. This is shown ingame in SB:Comstar by telling us that the Invader Galaxy, 1st Royal Regiment, and Black Watch Regiment roll on different tables to show their access to different equipment than regular CS forces.

Im putting up with the HGR issue now. FM: Lyran Alliance says "HGR will slowly enter service with the LAAF,intially with forces along the ARDC and Jade Falcon borders". The Fafnir entry in the same resource tells us that the 3rd Lyran Guards have already been impressed by the HGR.

Going by these informations, an unit deployed in the ARDC theater will have its supply request filled first but an Skye Ranger, Thorin militia, 5th Lyran Guards or training battalion's request will get it's request filled in much much later if at all. So to an frontline unit, the HGR is not rare. The training battalion can only read about it.

Please refrain from using excessive foul language, let's keep this civil.

[Eviscerator]

To attempt to explain a while to anyone who is not familiar with Btech and don't know whats happening. level 1 tech is considered basic and is available to all forces, level 2 is advanced tech which is faction/time specific, and level 3 represents experimental stuff which is much more powerful. In a normal game/tournament, level 3 tech is not allowed to be used unless the tech has progressed from the experimental to at least limited issue.

To painrack: yes i know what is Level III tech and yes, some items in the Maximum Tech rulebook have come into limited use already. Which means they are now legal to use in a regular game.

ill now attemp to show how diferent the stated type of constructions exotics have based on era and how they factor into the design and game process.
a basline mech with all arm actuators has a total of 47 available spaces in which you can fit stuff in. these are considered critical locations on the mech: 6 engine spaces, 4 gyro, 2 sensor , and 2 lifesupport.
A mech with all arm actuators, using both clan XL engines and both clan armor/skeleton exotics has an total of 29 available spaces, and increases the numbers to 10 engine slots.
An mech using IS/SLDF construction exotics has a total of 13 spaces available and now has 12 engine spaces.
And one using WOB exotics has 53 spaces if you dont use armor/skeletal tech and even if u do, it now has 25 and there are now 8 critical slots on the mech.

An mech using experimental construction exotics available in the 3039 period now has 15 available spaces and the basic critical stuff stays the same.

An DHS is considered a piece of equipment and any one hit on any space counts it as destroyed.
a Clan double heat sink, 2 heat dissipation for 1 ton weight takes up two spaces
IS double has the same heat/weight factor but takes up 3 spaces.

To further put it into perspective:
A mech can have 3 engine spaces destroyed before it is judged immobilised
an baseline mech normally has all the critical stuff in the most heavily armored and hard to hit areas which are the center torso and head. ergo, the mech can have it's entire left arm, left torso completely destroyed and still be an combatant
an clan mech can do the same. an IS exotic mech cannot.
to duplicate the same on an WOB mech using the best construction tech you would need to hit all 3 engine slots in the torso. which any player would tell you, is something kinda hard

[Eviscerator]

Right. Between a Standard PPC and a Standard PPC. Or a laser and a laser. Not between TWO DIFFERENT WEAPONS TYPE.
Because that was WHAT you were trying to rebut you fucking piece of horseshit motherfucker.


.

Maximum tech lists a PPC capacitor which can be fitted into any type of ppc and the resultant discharge results in 5 more heat and 5 more damage. ppc capacitor are coming in limited issue in an jihad-era timeframes. Hence, Standard PPC now has the possibilty to do more damage now against then.

And once again, stuff in an organistion is issued based on priority levels. A favored unit with higher priority gets new stuff earlier and to them, what is rare normal issue is just uncommon issue as an example. You are far more likely to find the new WOB-Celestial configurations in service with Appolyon's Shadow Division than the mercenary unit they hired yesterday.

[PainRack]

Maximum tech lists a PPC capacitor which can be fitted into any type of ppc and the resultant discharge results in 5 more heat and 5 more damage. ppc capacitor are coming in limited issue in an jihad-era timeframes. Hence, Standard PPC now has the possibilty to do more damage now against then.

When retrofitted with an exotic new technology. Way to miss the point.

And once again, stuff in an organistion is issued based on priority levels. A favored unit with higher priority gets new stuff earlier and to them, what is rare normal issue is just uncommon issue as an example. You are far more likely to find the new WOB-Celestial configurations in service with Appolyon's Shadow Division than the mercenary unit they hired yesterday.

Wrong. Its explictly stated that the Celestial Mechs were shipped first to divisions garrisoning Earth first, Shadow Divisions second.

To painrack: yes i know what is Level III tech and yes, some items in the Maximum Tech rulebook have come into limited use already. Which means they are now legal to use in a regular game.

And? Nobody said shit about level III tech. Stop creating strawm and false arguments.

Im putting up with the HGR issue now. FM: Lyran Alliance says "HGR will slowly enter service with the LAAF,intially with forces along the ARDC and Jade Falcon borders". The Fafnir entry in the same resource tells us that the 3rd Lyran Guards have already been impressed by the HGR.

Going by these informations, an unit deployed in the ARDC theater will have its supply request filled first but an Skye Ranger, Thorin militia, 5th Lyran Guards or training battalion's request will get it's request filled in much much later if at all. So to an frontline unit, the HGR is not rare. The training battalion can only read about it.

Please refrain from using excessive foul language, let's keep this civil.
Im going to just put a short rebuttal:

Historical: War Of 3039 lists stats for experimental level 2 tech. most of which have disadvantages against usual IS Level 2 tech.
So an IS ER LL (experimental) is rare in an 3039 timeframe.

The ER large laser is not rare in an 3050, or 3055 timeframe and by 3060 is now regular issue.

And to who gives a Foxtrot, the people on the front line or under attack give a foxtrot.
Exotic tech is not rare among own-faction units that enjoy higher issue priorities. This is shown ingame in SB:Comstar by telling us that the Invader Galaxy, 1st Royal Regiment, and Black Watch Regiment roll on different tables to show their access to different equipment than regular CS forces.

Im putting up with the HGR issue now. FM: Lyran Alliance says "HGR will slowly enter service with the LAAF,intially with forces along the ARDC and Jade Falcon borders". The Fafnir entry in the same resource tells us that the 3rd Lyran Guards have already been impressed by the HGR.

Going by these informations, an unit deployed in the ARDC theater will have its supply request filled first but an Skye Ranger, Thorin militia, 5th Lyran Guards or training battalion's request will get it's request filled in much much later if at all. So to an frontline unit, the HGR is not rare. The training battalion can only read about it.

Please refrain from using excessive foul language, let's keep this civil.

I keep tihs civil when you stop fucking inserting strawmans, stop creating false positions and arguments that nobody is fucking debating.

[Eviscerator]

It is not possible to make any real argument on which is better simply by just saying "ship a is fighting ship b", one must provide details The OP did not do so.
The real capability of a warship is not based on how much energy level it puts out, it is based on how it performs in battle.
The performance is a combination of so many factors like i said, crew, tech, systems, embarked craft, etc etc not to forget who's the captain.
All technology go through generations of evolution and often the latest generation's only real resemblance to the original is the name or basic shape.

Even saying "Let's say they are Overlord class dropships" does not specify what variant of Overlord the dropships are. Which i attempted to ask in the next post which faction and which era the Mckenna is from because there are differences in available variants for different factions.

Painrack's original statement was "I would like to point out that a warship firepower isn't particularly notable" based on pure analysis of bombardment is wrong because it doesnt take into account the contributing fire that the embarked vessels supply. I

[Eviscerator]

If right now you were on the bridge of an warship and have assumed control over it, you do not know how to use it in an battle without extensive training in a whole bunch of matters.

Im just going to attempt to show how the performance of a ship in a battle is dependent on so many other factors rather than pure energy levels by quoting the Jorrus C'baoth takeover event of the ISD Chimaera. C'baoth who is an Jedi Master has assumed control over the vessel by using the Force, and has said he wants to attack Coruscant.

"not at all." Thrawn said, "I merely present the problems you and the Force will have to solve if you continue on this course of action. For instance, do you know where the Coruscant sector fleet is based, or the numbers or types of ships making it up? Have you thought about how you will neutralise Coruscant's orbital battle stations and ground-based systems? Do you know who is in command of the planet's defense at present, and how he or she is likely to deploy the available forces? Have you considered Coruscant's energy field? Do you know how best to use the strategic and tactical capabilities of an Imperial Star Destroyer? "

"You seek to confuse me," C'baoth accused. "Your men - MY men - know the answers to all these questions."

"To some of them, yes," Thrawn said. "But you cannot learn the answers. Not all of them. Certainly not quickly enough."

[Eviscerator]

Oh wth, i dont even know what im saying any more. I concede. I have sent a pm to painrack saying the same and im withdrawing from this thread. Please return to the original discussion that was going on well before it got derailed