Systems Alliance (Mass Effect) vs. Colonials (nBSG)

[Stargazer]

Scenario: The Plan failed, Colonials found out about humanoid cylons. A Colonial fleet finds a Systems Alliance colony and thinks they're humanoid cylons, seizing it. The Systems Alliance dispatchs a fleet to respond. War ensues.

Who wins? Colonials and the Alliance speak different languages, so there will be no diplomatic solutions.

[adam_grif]

We'll have to lay down a few more ground rules than that, since the primary mode of long range FTL in MEverse is Mass Relays. Can the colonials make use of it? Would they want to? I know the BSG FTL appears instantaneous, but does it have any upper limits that would make the instant 100+ ly mass relay travel attractive to them? I suppose it requires no fuel which is a plus. How close is the nearest relay to Colonial space? Does the Systems Alliance get to call in the Citadel fleet for help in the war? If so, the Turians provide >30 extra Dreadnoughts, which is a significant force.

From what I've been reading around these parts, the biggest problem might be that Battlestars themselves are tough motherfuckers. I've seen some people claiming they can hold off megatonne level nukes contact detonating with the hull, and others claiming they get wiped by kilotonne level ones. I'm sure there's some variation between models and the like (older vs newer BS's). Somebody clarifying this would be much appreciated.

The Systems Alliance has 7 dreadnoughts as of 2183 and 8 as of 2185. Each dreadnought can only be damaged by approximately equivelant craft with kinetic impactors, the Mass Effect shielding can shrug off kilotonne level firepower with ease until it gets to around 20+ KT. That said, sheilds explicitly do not protect from radiation, so if the Battlestars or what have you can get nukes near the hull it will likely be game over for the craft. They can't directly assault them, because any missiles will get shot down at dozens of kilometers away by the GARDIAN point defense systems, which are designed to deal with both missiles and fighters in large numbers.

On the flip side, Systems Alliance fighters have vastly enhanced acceleration and top speeds thanks to their drive cores, and can deploy disruptor torpedoes in large numbers. Firepower is unknown, but it can't be measured conventionally. They create unstable mass effect fields which rips armor apart, so if they are not immediately lethal to a battlestar they will at the least weaken its armor to the point where it will be vulnerable to conventional fire from cruisers or frigates, which are far more numerous than Dreadnoughts.

Given that fighters and missiles won't be getting anywhere near ME craft without swarming tactics and their conventional guns won't be doing jack against the large craft, their best bet would be to get something like a Raptor with an FTL drive and stick a big nuke in the cargo hold. FTL as close to a dreadnought or some other high value target as possible (that can't be killed by normal means) then detonate. If this is undesirable, they could try closing with their FTL close with battle-stars and launching nukes at close range (10 KM or so). Some PD will still be active but at this range they should be able to bypass it by launching en masse and Dreadnoughts are hopeless at knife fight ranges like this, since their whole craft must rotate by large amounts to get a shot off accurately.

On the ME side, they have ~12 solar systems to deal with. Their best bet tactically would be to use Carriers with cruiser escorts to use the disruptor torp + cruiser main gun combo to finish off the big targets. Strategically, they want to finish the colonists off as quickly as possible because their ability to bypass mass relays is extremely disruptive to MEverse military doctrine, which is predicated around the idea that mass relays are inevitable choke-points that you can fortify. Unfortunately, for similar reasons it will likely take a direct assault on their worlds to force them to stay and fight, since they can just vanish from any tactically disadvantageous situation. They ain't gonna stay and fight if they know they're going to lose.

So the Systems alliance will be trying to find the 12 colonies and blitz them. They will destroy orbital assets and asteroid mining operations to prevent their ability to produce war materials. Assaulting colonies ASAP will force them into direct confrontations around such high value targets. Conversely, Colonials optimal strategy is to likewise find Earth and human colonies, and do hit and run tactics to overwhelm their light garrisons (SA doctrine is tiny garrisons + large fleets stationed ready to jump around to assets when they are attacked) with disproportionate force, then disappear before their response fleets can arrive. They will be trying to get them to spread their forces thin so that they can numerically overwhelm them in stand up fights. Divide and conquer is the order of the day.

[DarkAscendant]

Battlestars get sniped from ten thousand kilometers away from MACs.

[Nephtys]

Battlestars get sniped from ten thousand kilometers away from MACs.

Either that, or they close to point blank range and launch ineffective slow-moving fireballs at each other like beached whales.

Is MA Codex more 'correct', or are the visuals?

[Ford Prefect]

Is MA Codex more 'correct', or are the visuals?

We have a pretty straightforward comment from one of the developers that the battle seen in the first game is out of line with the actual IP.

[adam_grif]

Battlestars get sniped from ten thousand kilometers away from MACs.

Either that, or they close to point blank range and launch ineffective slow-moving fireballs at each other like beached whales.

Is MA Codex more 'correct', or are the visuals?

Devs say that the custcene was a fuckup, caused by a miscommunication between departments until it was too late to change it.

But even if we accept ME 1 cutscene as how it happened, just because they did wallow around like beached whales and fire slow moving fireballs doesn't mean that's what they're limited too, in the same way we know that Star Destroyers aren't just limited to visual range combat even though we never see them bombarding anything whilst being a million kilometers away.

[Stargazer]

Can the colonials make use of it? Would they want to? I know the BSG FTL appears instantaneous, but does it have any upper limits that would make the instant 100+ ly mass relay travel attractive to them?

Mass relays seem to respond to a signal instructing them on what to do, so the Colonials will have to figure that out, but once they do they should be able to use the relays. And unless the Colonials can instantly travel practically halfway across the galaxy, yeah, the long-range relays should be very useful to them, and the short-range ones should be convenient as ell.

How close is the nearest relay to Colonial space?

Ok, let's say the system the Colonials attack does not have a mass relay; it's about a dozen light years from a system with one. This star cluster is relatively on the edge of Alliance space- though close enough that an attacked colony merits a response.

Does the Systems Alliance get to call in the Citadel fleet for help in the war? If so, the Turians provide >30 extra Dreadnoughts, which is a significant force.

Not initially; the Council will only step in if Colonials start nuking Alliance colonies.


The Systems Alliance has 7 dreadnoughts as of 2183 and 8 as of 2185. Each dreadnought can only be damaged by approximately equivelant craft with kinetic impactors, the Mass Effect shielding can shrug off kilotonne level firepower with ease until it gets to around 20+ KT. That said, sheilds explicitly do not protect from radiation, so if the Battlestars or what have you can get nukes near the hull it will likely be game over for the craft. They can't directly assault them, because any missiles will get shot down at dozens of kilometers away by the GARDIAN point defense systems, which are designed to deal with both missiles and fighters in large numbers.

Some PD will still be active but at this range they should be able to bypass it by launching en masse and Dreadnoughts are hopeless at knife fight ranges like this, since their whole craft must rotate by large amounts to get a shot off accurately.

I've never seen Battlestars carry enough nukes to spam on a level that would get past GARDIAN, even at that range. Closer range limits dreadnought weapons, but against Battlestars they shouldn't be as completely useless as stated in the codex- they make much larger and slower targets than that statement's context of the main targets beng ~400m cruisers.

Also, even if at that range dreadnoughts can't get a firing solution with their main guns, they have a backup- broadside guns. Kilimanjaro class dreadnoughts have 78 broadside guns on each side, for 156 guns total. The guns are each 40% of the ship's width. Given the number, and the fact that they're railguns (or some other magnetic weapon), that seems to quite outgun the 15 main batteries a Mercury class has on each side.

[Stargazer]

I can't find the "edit" button...

EDIT: Ok, that's strange- this post has an "edit" button, but the one above doesn't.

Given that fighters and missiles won't be getting anywhere near ME craft without swarming tactics and their conventional guns won't be doing jack against the large craft, their best bet would be to get something like a Raptor with an FTL drive and stick a big nuke in the cargo hold. FTL as close to a dreadnought or some other high value target as possible (that can't be killed by normal means) then detonate. If this is undesirable, they could try closing with their FTL close with battle-stars and launching nukes at close range (10 KM or so). Some PD will still be active but at this range they should be able to bypass it by launching en masse

I just remembered. GARDIAN point defense systems are only effective within 10 km or so, so launching nukes at that range won't really make a difference.

[adam_grif]

Ok, let's say the system the Colonials attack does not have a mass relay; it's about a dozen light years from a system with one. This star cluster is relatively on the edge of Alliance space- though close enough that an attacked colony merits a response.

This gives approximately a 24 hour relay-to-colony transit time for MEverse ships.

I've never seen Battlestars carry enough nukes to spam on a level that would get past GARDIAN, even at that range. Closer range limits dreadnought weapons, but against Battlestars they shouldn't be as completely useless as stated in the codex- they make much larger and slower targets than that statement's context of the main targets beng ~400m cruisers.

Also, even if at that range dreadnoughts can't get a firing solution with their main guns, they have a backup- broadside guns. Kilimanjaro class dreadnoughts have 78 broadside guns on each side, for 156 guns total. The guns are each 40% of the ship's width. Given the number, and the fact that they're railguns (or some other magnetic weapon), that seems to quite outgun the 15 main batteries a Mercury class has on each side.

I'm thinking this is turning out to be something of a curb-stomp unless the colonials take drastic measures like threatening to jump in and nuke Earth. They just don't have the arsenal to do all that much damage. Has anybody done damage calcs on the main batteries for Mercury class? How many battlestars are there? Unless they're packing double digit KT they aren't going to be able to scratch Dreadnoughts, and Cruisers are probably nimble enough to dodge most of their fire at solid range and still fire back. Cruisers have a small number of fighters inside their hull, and mount disruptor torps for close range engagements.

Frigates are unlikely to do much to their hull with their axial guns, but aforementioned torpedoes will be nasty, as will anything mounting the newer Javelin systems. If, as you say, they can't really missile spam all that much, I don't see them scoring many kills at all.

I can't find the "edit" button...

EDIT: Ok, that's strange- this post has an "edit" button, but the one above doesn't.

There's a time-limit on post editing, presumably to prevent people from backpeddling on their arguments and similar dishonest debate tactics.

[Stargazer]

They just don't have the arsenal to do all that much damage. Has anybody done damage calcs on the main batteries for Mercury class?

I've asked around, and no one seems to have solid calcs. The damage through kinetic energy of the batteries isn't likely to be high, as the shells seem to be chemically propelled. The explosives within the shells may add to the damage, but against Alliance ships that damage would likely be mitigated by kinetic barriers keeping the explosions at arm's length, so to speak.

How many battlestars are there?

According to Battlestar Wiki, the Colonials have around 120 ships classified as battlestars, as well as "thousands" of smaller support ships. Battlestars have wide size variation, though, ranging from the ~1700 meter Mercury class to the ~800 meter Valkyrie type.