SF Military Tropes

[Darth Wong]

I think you're being a bit too revisionist in your history here. Destructionator XIII was the one who appeared to be having an explosive reaction to the trope:

If space organizations are ever called 'navies' in real life, I'll eat a fucking bullet. There's no way I could imagine living day by day in a world where such extreme fucking stupidity is taken seriously.

Ah, that's probably it. I recalled seeing someone have a completely ridiculous reaction to it, and I think I assumed it was you because you were arguing the subject. Sorry about that.

[Simon_Jester]

Naval ranks, however, aren't so bad. My argument there with simon_jester is that I don't think all spacecraft warrant captains/colonels, but that's what you generally see in sci-fi.

The spacecraft you actually see in most science fiction tend to have large crews and very destructive weapons. Relatively small, lightly armed craft don't need captains* fit for regimental command. If someone fits a space shuttle with a megawatt laser or something, that can be assigned to a fairly junior officer. But ships like Star Trek's Enterprise, with a crew of hundreds and nuclear-equivalent weapons, merit more experienced commanders.

*In the general sense that anyone who commands a ship is a captain, not in the sense of "captain" as a specific rank.

[MKSheppard]

If space organizations are ever called 'navies' in real life, I'll eat a fucking bullet. There's no way I could imagine living day by day in a world where such extreme fucking stupidity is taken seriously

Why? The US Navy, US Air Force, US Army, and US Marine Corps have all flown astronauts in space; and the US Army has in the past, put together plans for MOON BASES, as well as funded heavy lift boosters.

[MKSheppard]

If you're referring to the trope of there is ONE SERVICE that does everything (Starfleet/UN Spacy) then I agree with you.

In a realistic world, there should be at least six services floating around. Maybe ten.

US Army: In order to protect America from enemy attack (the old Coastal Artillery/Defense role); we must have the high ground for our Orbital Forts and Lunar Forts. Plus, we must have the craft to support these forts.

US Navy: We have had long experience with long duration missions of large amounts of people crammed into small spaces with little external support!

US Air Force: Trying to draw a dividing line where air ends and space begins is impossible. We must create an Aerospace force to defend america!

US Marine Corps: We go where the Navy Goes.

US Coast Guard: Because someone's got to rescue the dumbasses who get themselves in scrapes. And no, we're not renaming it the US Space Guard.

NOAA: We must place a large observatory to observe the sun and measure the solar wind's effects on the Earth system. And we must do it using US Navy ranks. (NOAA actually has the Commissioned Officer Corps).

Of course; this is only feasible for a large country like the United States who has $$$$. It could be that smaller countries like Greece simply say: "Everything above 200 miles will be the province of the newly formed Greek Space Defense Force (GSDF); to avoid very expensive duplication of units, missions, etc."

This might actually be why Battlestar Galactica has Army and Navy ranks mixed up, like Colonel ---> Commander ---> Admiral; because they unified the various services into one single military force; and they had to mix and match the different cultures as a sop to make each service support the unification.

"Okay, we'll support unification if you keep at least x Army ranks".

[adam_grif]

I remember writing a shitty story a few years back that, amongst other things, had some spacecraft operated by the Navy, Army and Marines. Inter-branch infighting ensued. Well, not like space combat, just the verbal kind.

[SAMAS]

Off of my head, super robot wars had that tiger/dragon mech and the prototypes being vastly superior to production models, Vanguard Bandits had the excavated ATACs, Zoids had the Deathsaurer, Megaman X had X and Zero, Guyver had the Guyver units. American Knights had the main characters power armor, Marvel has the killer robot on agents of atlas. Thats all I got.

KouOh and RyuOh were severely degraded from spending centuries buried in a mountain (on top of their last battle, sometime in the mid-to-late 1800s), and restored themselves by assimilating a state-of-the-art Super Robot, so that doesn't count.

The Deathsaurer was:
A: Mechagodzilla with a Wave Motion Gun in his mouth.
B: Not invulnerable to modern tech, just really tough.
It's superiority was because it was a Superweapon. The newly-built Ultrasaurus was able to stand up to it for a while, and ultimately destroyed it.

[SAMAS]

If you're referring to the trope of there is ONE SERVICE that does everything (Starfleet/UN Spacy) then I agree with you.

In a realistic world, there should be at least six services floating around. Maybe ten.

US Army: In order to protect America from enemy attack (the old Coastal Artillery/Defense role); we must have the high ground for our Orbital Forts and Lunar Forts. Plus, we must have the craft to support these forts.

US Navy: We have had long experience with long duration missions of large amounts of people crammed into small spaces with little external support!

US Air Force: Trying to draw a dividing line where air ends and space begins is impossible. We must create an Aerospace force to defend america!

US Marine Corps: We go where the Navy Goes.

US Coast Guard: Because someone's got to rescue the dumbasses who get themselves in scrapes. And no, we're not renaming it the US Space Guard.

NOAA: We must place a large observatory to observe the sun and measure the solar wind's effects on the Earth system. And we must do it using US Navy ranks. (NOAA actually has the Commissioned Officer Corps).

Of course; this is only feasible for a large country like the United States who has $$$$. It could be that smaller countries like Greece simply say: "Everything above 200 miles will be the province of the newly formed Greek Space Defense Force (GSDF); to avoid very expensive duplication of units, missions, etc."

This might actually be why Battlestar Galactica has Army and Navy ranks mixed up, like Colonel ---> Commander ---> Admiral; because they unified the various services into one single military force; and they had to mix and match the different cultures as a sop to make each service support the unification.

"Okay, we'll support unification if you keep at least x Army ranks".

Ultimately, the decision will depend on the country making it (and therefore the Author), whether you think it makes sense or not. The Doom Novels, for example, gave the Earth to the Army, Atmospheric operations to the Air Force, space to the Navy, and extraterrestrial surfaces (i.e.: other planets) to the Marines. I don't exactly agree with it, but that's one way to do it.

Macross and UC Gundam, on the other hand, make their space forces a separate entity called a Spacy (lame name, I know, but...).

As for you example above, they would most likely at least partially give in, then some years later split all space forces off into their own branch (like they did with the Air Force)

[lance]

Off of my head, super robot wars had that tiger/dragon mech and the prototypes being vastly superior to production models, Vanguard Bandits had the excavated ATACs, Zoids had the Deathsaurer, Megaman X had X and Zero, Guyver had the Guyver units. American Knights had the main characters power armor, Marvel has the killer robot on agents of atlas. Thats all I got.

KouOh and RyuOh were severely degraded from spending centuries buried in a mountain (on top of their last battle, sometime in the mid-to-late 1800s), and restored themselves by assimilating a state-of-the-art Super Robot, so that doesn't count.

Yes, but it was much more powerful than the Grungust that it absorbed to repair itself, so I dont see why it wouldn't count. If I attach an ancient super laser and shields to a Sherman tank and ride around blasting the shit out of panzers left and right that would count wouldnt it? Its the old tech that is doing the heavy lifting.

The Deathsaurer was:
A: Mechagodzilla with a Wave Motion Gun in his mouth.
B: Not invulnerable to modern tech, just really tough.
It's superiority was because it was a Superweapon. The newly-built Ultrasaurus was able to stand up to it for a while, and ultimately destroyed it.

Does it have to be invulnerable to modern tech? I get that it was a super weapon, but I don't see any reason why a super weapon would not be discounted. I thought it fought a small army before it was destroyed, but it has been a while. Though I think all of the zoids fall under ancient tech except for the debut models of the various shows.

[SAMAS]

Off of my head, super robot wars had that tiger/dragon mech and the prototypes being vastly superior to production models, Vanguard Bandits had the excavated ATACs, Zoids had the Deathsaurer, Megaman X had X and Zero, Guyver had the Guyver units. American Knights had the main characters power armor, Marvel has the killer robot on agents of atlas. Thats all I got.

KouOh and RyuOh were severely degraded from spending centuries buried in a mountain (on top of their last battle, sometime in the mid-to-late 1800s), and restored themselves by assimilating a state-of-the-art Super Robot, so that doesn't count.

Yes, but it was much more powerful than the Grungust that it absorbed to repair itself, so I dont see why it wouldn't count. If I attach an ancient super laser and shields to a Sherman tank and ride around blasting the shit out of panzers left and right that would count wouldnt it? Its the old tech that is doing the heavy lifting.

Technically, it's the new tech (the Grungust body) that's doing all the lifting period. They needed it to even function. Not to mention the TK Field, Cracker Engine, and other functions.

Besides, calling them "Tech" is a bad analogy in the first place. They're magic god-mechs powered by Perpetual Motion Machines that can be affected by heroin.





Their superiority is as much from the fact that they're building up from the original machine as anything else.

The Deathsaurer was:
A: Mechagodzilla with a Wave Motion Gun in his mouth.
B: Not invulnerable to modern tech, just really tough.
It's superiority was because it was a Superweapon. The newly-built Ultrasaurus was able to stand up to it for a while, and ultimately destroyed it.

Does it have to be invulnerable to modern tech? I get that it was a super weapon, but I don't see any reason why a super weapon would not be discounted. I thought it fought a small army before it was destroyed, but it has been a while. Though I think all of the zoids fall under ancient tech except for the debut models of the various shows.

Now, I mean the superiority is because of what it is, rather than how old it is.

For example, while a modern rifle is better than a World War II rifle, it's not as destructive against a World War II tank.

[lance]

Technically, it's the new tech (the Grungust body) that's doing all the lifting period. They needed it to even function. Not to mention the TK Field, Cracker Engine, and other functions.

Besides, calling them "Tech" is a bad analogy in the first place. They're magic god-mechs powered by Perpetual Motion Machines that can be affected by heroin.





Their superiority is as much from the fact that they're building up from the original machine as anything else.

Point.

[

quote]

The Deathsaurer was:
A: Mechagodzilla with a Wave Motion Gun in his mouth.
B: Not invulnerable to modern tech, just really tough.
It's superiority was because it was a Superweapon. The newly-built Ultrasaurus was able to stand up to it for a while, and ultimately destroyed it.

Does it have to be invulnerable to modern tech? I get that it was a super weapon, but I don't see any reason why a super weapon would not be discounted. I thought it fought a small army before it was destroyed, but it has been a while. Though I think all of the zoids fall under ancient tech except for the debut models of the various shows.

Now, I mean the superiority is because of what it is, rather than how old it is.

For example, while a modern rifle is better than a World War II rifle, it's not as destructive against a World War II tank.
[/quote]
I think the line is somewhat blurry. Wasn't the Ultrasauraurus bigger than the Deathsaurer? They seem to be largely in the same role as each other.

[andrewgpaul]

If you're referring to the trope of there is ONE SERVICE that does everything (Starfleet/UN Spacy) then I agree with you.

...

US Coast Guard: Because someone's got to rescue the dumbasses who get themselves in scrapes. And no, we're not renaming it the US Space Guard.

Well, no, because there already is a Spaceguard.