Are the Doctor and Master brothers?

[AndroAsc]

As above. I remember sometime during Season 3 Martha makes a comment asking if the Master is the Doctor's brother. His reaction (as I interpreted) it seems to be imply that is true.

Has this been covered in the old Doctor who series (before new Who)? Are they related to each other in any way?

[Stark]

How do Time Lords procreate? Uh oh!

[adam_grif]

How do Time Lords procreate? Uh oh!

They... dance.

[Stark]

Yeah we could go into a discussion about EU canonicity and the awful novels...

Or you could just post a +1 post.

[Stark]

Yeah we could go into a discussion about EU canonicity and the awful novels...

Or you could just post a +1 post.

[Broomstick]

So, are two +1 posts a +2 post?

More seriously, from what I've gathered the Time Lords are genetically engineered (though, of course, no TV show with a 40+ year history plus an extended universe of novels and what not is going to have anything like a consistent continuity). So, depending on details we likely will never have access to, the Doctor and Master may be of the same generation but not considered siblings, or may be genetically similar enough to be considered close relatives. Or they might be as unrelated as any two randomly chosen Time Lords, but were raised together thus making them adoptive brothers.

Then again, in a race that regenerates into new and significantly different bodies they whole concept of "brothers", at least on a biological level, might be meaningless.

In other words, your question may be unanswerable.

[Stark]

Sigh. Let's pretend we're not ignorant.

In the EU, it's revealed that the Time Lords are entirely artificial and are made on 'looms'. The Doctor's family are just the group of individuals made by his house's looms, and they replace lost members. The looms use the biodata silliness to make stuff, some historical figure jumped in one day and the Doctor came out later, etc.

Of course it's just novels, so who cares, but it's difficult to imagine what family relationships exist in their (almost totally artifical) society.

Unless it's all hermits living on hillsides outside the Citadel.

[adam_grif]

Vague references to them being brothers may be metaphorical in that they were once good friends, or more broadly just the same species, as in "all men are brothers".

[Vendetta]

How do Time Lords procreate? Uh oh!

Ask a fanfiction author.

[AndroAsc]

So, are two +1 posts a +2 post?

More seriously, from what I've gathered the Time Lords are genetically engineered (though, of course, no TV show with a 40+ year history plus an extended universe of novels and what not is going to have anything like a consistent continuity). So, depending on details we likely will never have access to, the Doctor and Master may be of the same generation but not considered siblings, or may be genetically similar enough to be considered close relatives. Or they might be as unrelated as any two randomly chosen Time Lords, but were raised together thus making them adoptive brothers.

Then again, in a race that regenerates into new and significantly different bodies they whole concept of "brothers", at least on a biological level, might be meaningless.

In other words, your question may be unanswerable.

Uh... ok. I've only watched the new Who series and I'm pretty sure they left out the detail that Time Lords are genetically engineered. I take it this piece of info came fro the old Who series?

[Broomstick]

It comes from the extended universe Who novels. I don't recall the Old Series touching on reproduction - but then I've never seen the entire Old Series since the very beginning pre-dates my existence. So maybe it was mentioned at some point I don't recall or never saw. As Stark mentioned, it is in a Who book.

[mr friendly guy]

The part about TL being genetically engineered came allegedly from the Cartmel plan, ie some notes DW writers in the classic series had on things they wanted to do including revealing more about the Doctor and the Time Lords. Since the old series was cancelled before these ideas were put in place, they survived in the DW novels which came after. Basically TL genetically engineered or "loomed" by the same house are considered cousins.

The idea that TL were genetically engineered was touched upon in the novel Lungbarrow. IIRC someone posted the entire novel in pdf form on Scrib. However you can read summaries on line from other sites. Other DW novels explained why the Gallifreyans were forced to reproduce via genetic engineering when they became TL. Don't ask, it really is stupid.

However in the classic series itself it was implied that TL reproduced naturally. IIRC it was one of the Tom Baker stories which implied there was a time lord nursery or some such thing.

So if you want to reconcile these two contradictions (and fans do) its simply that in the Doctor's days (ie when he was "loomed") TL were genetically engineered, but over time they started reproducing naturally again, so by the time of his fourth incarnation that was now the norm.

Hope this helps.

Now back to the original question, I don't recall any source which specifically implies that they are brothers other than fan speculation. Some sources imply the TL Braxiatel could be the Doctor's brother, but who knows. And if some hack writer makes the Doctor and the Master brothers I am going to spew. Its like making Raiden and Shao Kahn brothers in Mortal Kombat and Shinnok their daddy. Oh wait...

[Johonebesus]

So if you want to reconcile these two contradictions (and fans do) its simply that in the Doctor's days (ie when he was "loomed") TL were genetically engineered, but over time they started reproducing naturally again, so by the time of his fourth incarnation that was now the norm.

Not all fans do. In the McCoy era they were moving in the direction of the Doctor being much more than just a Timelord. Thankfully that never became cannon. The novels that went with this created a weird and stupid mythology with the Doctor being a champion of the gods and the reincarnation of Susan's grandfather.

What was televised was so full of contradictions that it's impossible to fully reconcile everything, so fans are forced to just ignore things that don't fit, like the Daleks' several "final ends," or Davros' primitive prototype that looked just like advanced Daleks from the end of their history, or Cybermen with natural, organic hands, or even the Doctor being half human (for as painful as it is to some, the McGann movie is cannon).

If you don't want to believe the Doctor had a human parent, then there is even less reason to accept all the loom business. Many fans just ignore the books entirely. The original series never gave any indication that Susan wasn't his natural granddaughter. The new series even has the Doctor describing Gallifrey with words lifted from Susan's dialogue in the first season. And of course the Doctor has stated explicitly that he has been a father.

[mr friendly guy]

Not all fans do. In the McCoy era they were moving in the direction of the Doctor being much more than just a Timelord. Thankfully that never became cannon. The novels that went with this created a weird and stupid mythology with the Doctor being a champion of the gods and the reincarnation of Susan's grandfather.

What was televised was so full of contradictions that it's impossible to fully reconcile everything, so fans are forced to just ignore things that don't fit, like the Daleks' several "final ends," or Davros' primitive prototype that looked just like advanced Daleks from the end of their history, or Cybermen with natural, organic hands, or even the Doctor being half human (for as painful as it is to some, the McGann movie is cannon).

If you don't want to believe the Doctor had a human parent, then there is even less reason to accept all the loom business. Many fans just ignore the books entirely. The original series never gave any indication that Susan wasn't his natural granddaughter. The new series even has the Doctor describing Gallifrey with words lifted from Susan's dialogue in the first season. And of course the Doctor has stated explicitly that he has been a father.

I meant to type some fans do, but I seemed to have rushed it and simply typed fans do.

Generally having the Doctor being a champion of a higher being and having sold his services to that being doesn't sound too bad. It makes him look sneaky as long as we get to see what the Doctor gets out of the deal.

Having the Doctor being the genetic reincarnation of a TL historical figure could work if done right. I haven't read the novels to know how well they executed the idea.

But with all those other contradictions, they can either be explained as
1. Alternate timeline
2. Time travel changes things
3. Time has passed (ie to explain the differences in Cybermen over the ages, just like how fighter jets look different from WWII to now).

[Broomstick]

If you don't want to believe the Doctor had a human parent, then there is even less reason to accept all the loom business. Many fans just ignore the books entirely. The original series never gave any indication that Susan wasn't his natural granddaughter. The new series even has the Doctor describing Gallifrey with words lifted from Susan's dialogue in the first season. And of course the Doctor has stated explicitly that he has been a father.

Of course, with the doctor, he could have been born into a society where everyone was "loomed" then scurried off in rebellion to start up natural reproduction again. But we've never seen that.

[Temujin]

I'm not very knowledgeable on some of the finer points of Who, especially the books and such, but...

Couldn't the Time Lords be the one's who were loomed, and hence have their special abilities, and the regular Gallifreyans be procreated normally, or whatever passes as normal in such an advanced society. I say this because I thought the Time Lords and the regular Gallifreyans essentially lived in two separate societies, inside and outside the Citadel respectively.

[Broomstick]

I had the impression (from the Tom Baker years) that the "regular Gallifreyans" were former Time Lords who gave up all the TL crap and ran off into the wilds (essentially). They're two separate societies, not two separate species.

[mr friendly guy]

I'm not very knowledgeable on some of the finer points of Who, especially the books and such, but...

Couldn't the Time Lords be the one's who were loomed, and hence have their special abilities, and the regular Gallifreyans be procreated normally, or whatever passes as normal in such an advanced society. I say this because I thought the Time Lords and the regular Gallifreyans essentially lived in two separate societies, inside and outside the Citadel respectively.

I can't remember if this has been suggested as a theory. However IIRC its stated that TL were simply Gallifreyans who had passed a certain rank, ie passed various exams regarding time and were most likely descended from "noble houses", AND here is the clincher, further genetic enhancements were done on them. While a normal Gallifreyan has two hearts etc, a Time Lord can also regenerate and have some of those funky time powers the Doctor has, like ability to walk through an area where humans just pause because of time manipulation, detect when someone else is playing with time (not as good as their devices to do so obviously) etc.

[Manus Celer Dei]

As above. I remember sometime during Season 3 Martha makes a comment asking if the Master is the Doctor's brother. His reaction (as I interpreted) it seems to be imply that is true.

...He says "You've been watching too much TV!". How does that imply it's true?

[andrewgpaul]

The idea that TL were genetically engineered was touched upon in the novel Lungbarrow. IIRC someone posted the entire novel in pdf form on Scrib.

It's also up on the BBC's Doctor Who site.

[Enigma]

Are the Who novels canon? If so then Lungbarrow novel mentions that they are loomed after they've been affected by the Pythis'a Curse.

'Where were you born?'

He closed the desk lid with a sigh. 'I was born in this House.' His sing-song approach, armoured with a growing contempt for the whole mechanical business of learning by rote, was wasted on the tutor. 'The House of Lungbarrow one of the many Houses founded in order to stabilize the population after the Great Schism when the Pythia's Curse rendered Gallifrey barren I was born from the Family Loom of the House each Loom weaves a set quota of Cousins defined by the Honourable Central Population Directory at the Capitol.'

He paused to take an exaggerated breath. Beyond the whitewood-framed window, the noonday sun dazzled off the silver foliage of the trees.

The tutor tapped the desk with a yellow claw. 'The quota…?

'The quota of Cousins allotted to the House of Lungbarrow is forty-five when a Cousin dies after her or his thirteen spans a new Cousin will be woven and born as a Replacement.' He stopped again and regarded his tutor.