NuWho vs OldWho, are we unfair to the new series?

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Re: NuWho vs OldWho, are we unfair to the new series?

Post by mr friendly guy »

Stark wrote:It's 'mouthing off' to talk about hopelessly overused plotting?
However Crossroad's point that certain types of plots (ie Doctor saves planet, galaxy, universe) was rare in the classic series is clearly false, which he has subsequently admitted in his next post. If your whole criticism is that you don't like the phrase "mouthing off" to describe his false claim then you have no case.
How about you look at overblown finale/season?

No shit its been overused. Now what has that got to do with my point that the Doctor saves a planet, galaxy, universe is NOT rare in the classic series again? Absolutely nothing. Thought so.
The old series went years without stupid crap, it's impossible to go a few episodes without it now.
Thats nice. Now what has that got to do with the above point again?
But yeah I better not 'mouth off'!
You're right. I should stick to SD.net approved phrases, like bullshit or false or fucking wrong, but there will be hell to pay if I dare use the phrase mouthing off.
Styling Genesis as saving the universe is frankly fucking absurd.
I don't believe I ever made that claim. I am pretty sure I said the Key to time Sextant, Enlightenment and Logopolis were the Doctor saves the universe story, while some others could arguably fit into that category. None of which, surprise includes Genesis of the Daleks, because the link is quite a bit more tenuous.
Uh oh, maybe a dozen RTD finales in 28 years! lol
We already know you hate RTD dude. There is no need to derail my contention that certain plot points were not rare in the old series to go into more RTD bashing. We got the picture a long time ago.
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Re: NuWho vs OldWho, are we unfair to the new series?

Post by Big Orange »

And before Timothy Dalton was twirling his invisible mostach in "The End of Time", I wasn't given a good impression of Time Lord society and policies in "The Brain of Morbius" and "The Five Doctors".

Oh and not to give too much away:
Spoiler
The Doctor in "The Big Bang" goes and saves all of existance yet again!
Anyway people here are remarkably selective; did anybody look at my other links for that magazine's episode poll? And apart from the strong and consistant viewer ratings every year, and the generally positive critical reception, another elephant in the room is the Audience Appreciation Index.

And on a related not Stephen Fry has created something of a shitstorm by saying Doctor Who's "not for adults".
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Re: NuWho vs OldWho, are we unfair to the new series?

Post by El Moose Monstero »

Who'd have thought that a show geared as family entertainment, probably the only program on at the minute which is intended to have the entire family to sit down and watch together, allowing the parents to bask in the glow of their childhood nostalgia, giving everyone some explosions and flashy lights, and giving the kids some classic monsters in a world of imported japanese and american cartoons would be widely well recieved by the british public? Also, who'd have thought that a Doctor Who fan magazine reliant on sales associated with the most recent series, and with a fan base who probably didn't see most of the original series would be rating the most recent episodes well?

Truly this is a measure of its quality alone, and not a wealth of additional factors fundamentally tied into the nature of the BBC, British television and our culture, and surely as a sci-fi forum, we should pay complete attention to these additional factors in considering it's merits as science fiction.
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Re: NuWho vs OldWho, are we unfair to the new series?

Post by Big Orange »

El Moose Monstero wrote:Who'd have thought that a show geared as family entertainment, probably the only program on at the minute which is intended to have the entire family to sit down and watch together, allowing the parents to bask in the glow of their childhood nostalgia, giving everyone some explosions and flashy lights, and giving the kids some classic monsters in a world of imported japanese and american cartoons would be widely well recieved by the british public?
Yes, how dare Russell T. Davies brought back a show that declined in the 1980s and was practically dead for the better part of two decades (with its BBC 2 repeats openly laughed at by Buffy and B5 fans ten years ago) and it's become a huge hit once again and sustaining a very broad audience. Oh no, the show's highly successful in catering to new audiences and the kids to keep the franchise alive in these post-MTV-Generation Y times, being somewhat hit n' miss in catering to the lifelong fans and a few Heavy Metal listeners, we can't have that! :finger:

The Doctor Who Magazine has been around since 1979 and so a large chunk of the readership are in our demograph or older, so I wouldn't say the poll is particularily biased and many of the Top 20 episodes are from the older series, with the under 18s voting "Genesis of the Daleks" as their fourth favourite story, so the success of NuWho has helped OldWho a great deal. And if Russell T. Davies is unanimously deemed a disaster how come Steven Moffat begged Rusty to come back?!

And look who's back: :roll:
Saturday, June 26, 2010
The Squee Doctors

S'okay, I didn't actually bother watching the second half. So this will be largely hypothetical. However...

...five days ago, I was standing in front of the window of the local newsagent's. There was a poster advertising "Archaeological Adventures: Dinosaurs" (I've mentioned this on Twitter, but if you don't already know, then it's the perfect thing for an intelligent child or autistic adult who wants to whittle while watching an unfulfilling World Cup match or BBC drama), and also a poster advertising Doctor Who stickers. I ignored the latter, because I'm really not joking when I say that I can't even look at the gormless foetus-face of Matt Smith without wanting to slap it. That thing with Van Gogh looked like the most interesting episode this year, but as soon as he did the "could you breathe a little more quietly?" schtick in the trailer, I literally made an effort to be out on Saturday.

(Sidestep One. ITV did a remake of The Prisoner which, by all precedent and reason, should've been unbearable. It was quite good. Jesus! ITV is doing a "cult" reboot, but uses proper actors - Ian McKellen and Ruth Wilson, the latter of whom steals the "Most Attractive Woman in the UK Who Looks Like a Fish" crown from Miranda Sawyer - while Doctor Who does a piss-poor Harry Potter impression with a footballer and a blow-up doll? Gutted.)

So I'm in front of the window. And then a little girl, of the kind that Moffat pretends to like when he's stuck in a narrative corner, pulled her mum up to the glass and pointed at the poster.

'I saw that Doctor Who on Shannon's widescreen!' she said. 'It was scary. The Girl One had to run loads...'

(Sidestep Two. To anyone who's read my Twitter-log: yes, that's why I've started using the phrase "the Girl One".)

'...but the Boy One had to save... something.'

The narrative slip is, of course, acceptable from a seven-year-old. However: the Boy One? And, yes, I did indeed turn eyes-left to make sure she was pointing at the photo of Matt Smith. Then I turned eyes-right, sharpish, beacuse I was scared of looking like a paedophile.

The Boy One?

About a week and a half ago, Stephen Fry (defined by a sometimes-wise critic as "a stupid person's idea of what a clever person is like") attracted venom by critising Doctor Who in the era of Steven Moffat (defined by me as "oh, what a complete arse"). Yet in this epic cage-fighting battle between drivelling self-involved pretend-intellectuals, the most important point seemed to be missed. Fry talked about programmes "like" Merlin and Doctor Who.

If you can use those two titles in the same sentence, then something's gone terribly wrong.

But then, this is what I've been saying for a loooooong time: Moffat stated that he didn't want to be remembered as "the man who killed Doctor Who", and yet he already did kill it. He killed it in "The Girl in the Fireplace", a rather good episode if you concentrate on what the author genuinely likes - robots and temporal screwing-around - but an abysmal and emotionally-extorting one when you understand that he's trying to redefine the Doctor as a Sexy Immortal and himself as the Sexy Immortal's Agent. I wasn't kidding when I said the the series in 2010 is competing with Twilight, y'know. Doctor Who at its best has been awkward, experimental, and unpredictable. Moffat's version, as laid out in "Silence in the Library", is slick, conservative, and entirely founded on things that have been proven to work. In short... it's like Merlin. Only even stupider.

Here's the grand irony, though -

(Sidestep Three. How many times have I used the phrase "here's the grand irony"?)

- by attempting to squee-up the Doctor, Moffat has destroyed him as a meaningful figure. In "Forest of the Dead" (the Doctor defeats the shadow-nasties by saying "do you know who I am?", thus removing any possible dramatic tension and making him look like the petulant celebrity he's bltantly becoming) and "The Pandorica Opens" (the monsters have spent ages planning this, yet a version of the Doctor of whom even I wouldn't be scared gives himself breathing-space by telling them that he made their mums wee themselves), we're shown a Doctor who can do anything he likes because he's... well... famous. He never proves he's clever, or brave, or moral, or indeed, anything at all. We're just told that he always wins, and we're expected to swallow it without question. His fandom-strength makes him the weakest hero in history.

That's what I meant by "irony": Moffat tries to make the Doctor a fetish-object, because that's how we think of him as long-term Doctor Who viewers, and because we're the ones to whom he's pandering. (Well, not me. But you know what I mean.) What the author's actually doing is ensuring the Doctor's worthlessness. If you make someone all-powerful, then power's worth nothing at all, especially if you do it just to reinforce fan-opinion of the safe and clean-cut Boy One.

And of course, the really horrible thing is that this might - I stress "might" - be my fault. Over the last week, I've been informed by numerous people that "The Pandorica Opens" was a lot like "Alien Bodies". This never occurred to me while watching it, but then, I never saw the link between "Honey to the B" and "Never Ever". However -

(Sidestep Four. For the sake of those unfamiliar with late-'90s British pop music: "Honey to the B" was an entirely negligible single by Billie, AKA Billie Piper, engineered as a clone of the glorious "Never Ever" by All Saints. Unfortunately for the future Surprisingly Good Companion, it was such an artless, lumpen, misshapen parody that nobody who actually liked "Never Even" even realised it was supposed to sound like that. It went Top Ten in the UK charts, but at that point, B*Witched would've got to number one by breaking wind into a microphone for three minutes. I'm stating all this from memory, so the details may be faulty.)

- I don't think it's true. At least, not in the way they meant: technically, "Pandorica" is a lot closer to "Dimensions in Time" than "Alien Bodies". No, screw technically, "Pandorica" is like "Dimenions in Time". Only on a big budget. And without Big Ron.

Still... I remember what Moffat said he liked about "Alien Bodies". He specifically drew attention to the end of Chapter Five, claiming that it was the best cliffhanger he'd ever read. Since he was still capable of wit in those days, I remember the exact way he put it: "And that includes 'Mr Holmes, it was the footprint of a gigantic hound'."

Now, that's a compliment and a half, and I felt duly chuffed. Yet I can't help wondering about the consequences. In "Alien Bodies" (and on the off-chance that anyone reading this doesn't know what happens in it, I'll be vague regarding the end of Chapter Five), the Doctor becomes the subject of Doctor Who rather than its medium. I wrote it that way for a specific reason: a lot of very silly people, mentioning no Jon Blums, were trying to "redefine" the Doctor's past after the "half-human on my mother's side" blather of the TV movie. Like the editor of the books at that stage, I didn't give a rat's minge about his past, and thus wrote something about the future. Not just his future, either.

But in doing that, I... sort of... turned the Doctor into a fetish object. Literally, in fact, according the the dictionary definition of "fetish".

And Moffat read it. And liked the end of Chapter Five.

And now he runs a version of the series in which the Doctor is a living fetish object.

Even though it completely destroys the series' (pardon me) Prime Directive, by making it about an all-powerful all-male hero-figure rather than a traveller who's just interested in things.

And to an extent, I admit it: "Alien Bodies" was stupidly popular because it made the Doctor the subject rather than the medium.

Especially because of the end of Chapter Five.

And Moffat knew that.

And his Prime Directive is to be liked.

And the crucial thing to realise about the "Pandorica" arse-fest isn't the plot (if you've found one), but that it puts the Doctor at the very centre of the universe: there's a box, and you're primed to think that he's going to be in it, but it's actually a trap so that he will be in it. It's pitched not as a prison for the Doctor as a character, but for the Doctor as an icon of modern-day telly.

So I find myself asking. Did Moffat get that from me? Despite what's been said elsewhere, "Pandorica" isn't structurally similar to "Alien Bodies" at all. Yet his vision seems... uncomfortably close, if for all the wrong reasons. Oh, you know: like Neil Gaimain ripping off Alan Moore, then wearing sunglasses and pretending to be a rock star in LA.

This is the question that's bothering me. If you like the eejit but don't like me, then please feel free to say no, I'd honestly like the reassurance. If the reverse, then please lie and say no anyway.

Otherwise, I'm going to apologise, just on the off-chance that I'm right. Doctor Who is now more awful than at any point in its prior history, not because the chief-writer-stroke-producer is vastly more inept than any of his predecessors (he clearly isn't), but because he's vastly more cynical. I, for one, would rather have a bad programme that's attempting something - anything - than a programme designed specifically for BAFTA judges and fans of superhero movies [see previous blog-entries]. And if there's even a 1% chance that I laid 1% of the groundwork for this, then I'm so, so sorry.

Also, "Alien Bodies" isn't even that good. Well, the prologue's good. I'm proud of the prologue. Could do Chapter Five about eight times better these days, though.
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I've gone past caring when some fans these days wail 'Argh, this is the worst Doctor Who's been since Bonnie Langford!', having no sense of perspective on how well this show's actually doing, even if RTD got staid as a showrunner back in 2008. People speak of a Dark Age when it's pretty much been the exact opposite and has been a Renaissance.
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Re: NuWho vs OldWho, are we unfair to the new series?

Post by DaveJB »

Big Orange wrote:Yes, how dare Russell T. Davies brought back a show that declined in the 1980s and was practically dead for the better part of two decades (with its BBC 2 repeats openly laughed at by Buffy and B5 fans ten years ago) and it's become a huge hit once again and sustaining a very broad audience.
Okay, has anyone here denied that RTD was successful in terms of bringing the show back, and did well as showrunner for his first two seasons and most of the third? Yes, people shouldn't forget that RTD had a very good batting average until he jumped the shark at the end of S3. But does that excuse the fact that S4 (including the specials) was probably one of the worst seasons in the history of any sci-fi show, ever? No, it doesn't.

Oh, and this DWM poll that you keep blabbering on about; I'm pretty sure that with the exception of "Last of the Time Lords," "Journey's End" and maybe one or two others, no-one here would actually dispute the placings of the post-2005 episodes on their list.
And if Russell T. Davies is unanimously deemed a disaster how come Steven Moffat begged Rusty to come back?!
Firstly, you've gone and posted another strawman. No-one has said that everything RTD touches turns to shit. Secondly, being a good writer and being a good showrunner are two completely separate things. Hell, RTD is hardly alone in that club, even the great Douglas Adams was a pretty bad script editor for the show.
I've gone past caring when some fans these days wail 'Argh, this is the worst Doctor Who's been since Bonnie Langford!', having no sense of perspective on how well this show's actually doing, even if RTD got staid as a showrunner back in 2008. People speak of a Dark Age when it's pretty much been the exact opposite and has been a Renaissance.
Now you seem to be complaining just for the sake of complaining. Yes, there was some "Blah, nothing's changed, Moffat's just as shitty as RTD was" near the start of the series after Beast Below and Victory of the Daleks misfired, but in this forum at least the complainers have been in the minority, whereas for 2008-09 they were very much in the majority.
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Re: NuWho vs OldWho, are we unfair to the new series?

Post by El Moose Monstero »

Big Orange wrote:
El Moose Monstero wrote:Who'd have thought that a show geared as family entertainment, probably the only program on at the minute which is intended to have the entire family to sit down and watch together, allowing the parents to bask in the glow of their childhood nostalgia, giving everyone some explosions and flashy lights, and giving the kids some classic monsters in a world of imported japanese and american cartoons would be widely well recieved by the british public?
Yes, how dare Russell T. Davies brought back a show that declined in the 1980s and was practically dead for the better part of two decades (with its BBC 2 repeats openly laughed at by Buffy and B5 fans ten years ago) and it's become a huge hit once again and sustaining a very broad audience. Oh no, the show's highly successful in catering to new audiences and the kids to keep the franchise alive in these post-MTV-Generation Y times, being somewhat hit n' miss in catering to the lifelong fans and a few Heavy Metal listeners, we can't have that! :finger:
Well done for missing my point. Though I admit, it could have been made better. To appease fearsome finger based wrath, I should perhaps have clarified that I didn't mean that to disparage the efforts of the writers, nor was arguing that the series is pure shit as a result. You will never get me, and nowhere will you find me doing so, to say that RTD and the whole writing staff don't deserve credit for restoring Doctor Who and giving a whole new generation of kids back the monsters that the older generation had is a bad thing. You only have to look at the Doctor Who musical thingy, with kids hiding from the daleks, booing Davros and looking a bit worried by the Judoon, to see how that's been a fantastic thing. It's why I never complained about bringing back Davros in JE, because Davros is an iconic character, and it seems a bit unfair that he should remain consigned to the old programs when you're bringing the series to a whole new audience of kids who love him. If it's done well, I don't care. See the Dalek episodes - their reoccurence grated because they became formulaic and lazy, 'oh, here's some more dalek who have escaped the timewar, and look, there's millions of them, even though we told a fearsome story with one, and four, before the ark'. If each dalek episode had been awesome, you would not have heard me complaining.

The point I was trying to make, however, was that telling us how much everyone else likes it adds little to the debate. After all, isn't it a bit like (before the DVD resurgence and movie) saying 'Firefly had a tiny audience and was cancelled at the end of only 11 episodes, so you guys saying how awesome it was are clearly wrong'. That would have been an oversimplification because there are a load of other factors to invoke, and doesn't actually address the content in the slightest. To my mind, when dealing with Doctor Who, the reviews are not just about audience enjoyment, but also about nostalgia, providing actual family entertainment compared to a wealth of reality tv programs or singing and dancing programs, having cool monsters which kids can draw, and have nightmares about, and all that sort of stuff. So I'm not sure how much bearing telling us how much the kids and parents love it has on a discussion where the question is whether in our discussions here, whether we've been unfairly criticising the new series relative to the old.

I probably have been unfair to the new series, relative to the older series, which I've not had as much exposure to. I think that's because the new series started out so well and then (for me) went very downhill. My problems with RTD's tenure came in the back half, series 3 and 4 and the miniseries, when things just started to become repetitive, and for me, the characters became unlikeable. The first 2 series were genuinely good quality, with consistently good episodes and scenes which are still among my favourite scenes and are still worth watching on repeat. Then it went downhill and became repetitive and formulaic. I rate the first 2 series higher than the one just gone, which still shows a lot of the hallmarks of the last two series of RTD's tenure, a lot of the same writing tendencies and formulae, and certainly the episodes would not have looked out of place in S3 or S4. I think the only thing that has kept me with S5 long enough to get to the finale, which I enjoyed and has actually eclipsed what was by and large, a bland season, was Matt Smith's acting, which has been great fun and thoroughly enjoyable throughout, with a couple of exceptions.
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Re: NuWho vs OldWho, are we unfair to the new series?

Post by Big Orange »

The comparative decline in the scripting/story quality of NuWho to me seems to be almost purely subjective and academic - the majority of reviews for NuWho seem to be consistently gushing and the ratings have not crashed through the floorboards (like Heroes' ratings did, and that correlated with its increasing shiteness and incoherence that almost nobody could deny).

However there seems to be a common conscensus that the most unlikable companion in NuWho so-far was Rose Tyler in Tennant's first season (with her increased cockiness and sarcasm), while RTD always intended to the Doctor to be almost Messianic and he also wrote The Second Coming, though it was more subtle and less preachy in the first season with the more dour Eccleston. Martha Jones was not unlikable, it was just that she was just a bit too cookie-cutter for my liking and the actress was a bit wooden (though Agyeman was not terrible on Waterman/Aldred levels), I didn't mind Donna Noble for the most part, and I really liked Wilfred. And with some truly excellent episodes like "Blink" and "Midnight" it seems somewhat impractical, even outright churlish to write off Tennant's last couple of seasons as failures.

I loved Moffat's first season for the most part, but it did seem a lot like that NuWho was in transition, so little wonder there were a few episodes or segments in episodes that were not unlike the stuff from the Tennant era (with Matt Smith and new TARDIS decore putting a more refreshing spin on things).
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
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