How long could Mass Effect last against the Federation?

[Junghalli]

No damage visible.

It could have been something venting from the interior. Coolant, fuel, or maybe just something with a lower vaporization energy than the hull.

Also, given how much of a supernova's energy goes into kinetic energy rather than light, perhaps it may have been pushed out of orbit by the solar wind? That would require much less energy than light pressure.

Plus, as has been pointed out before, since a supernova would blow off a lot of the star's mass it may be that its old orbital velocity was simply above the escape velocity of the stellar remnant. This site gives a figure for neutron star mass of 1.4 solar masses, whereas it says the kind of stars that are likely to end up this way are 4-8 solar masses. That's most of the star's mass being lost to the supernova, so such a scenario is very easy to imagine, and it would require no input of energy whatsoever to the relay.

[Stargazer]

You're making excuses where their is no need for any. The exact wording is that it was knocked out of the system. Not that it moved itself. Not that it drifted away since there was not so much of a gravitational pulled. There's absolutely no reason to assume so. It was knocked away.

[CSJM]

Well, there's always the descriptive flavor to consider. You don't say "such-and-such star exploded, and this object from its orbit drifted all the way here", that is just not impressive enough, at least you'll say "the object ended up here", or, if you want to emphasize the event, say it was "knocked out of the system all the way here". Of course, there could be studies done on the subject of that relay, in-universe, but I don't remember seeing an extrapolation on those. (I really should reinstall Mass Effect) Saying it was knocked out of the system, with just the facts that it was there, the star went boom, and they found the thing in a different place after a few years, is just descriptive flavor. It could just as well have drifted all the way there after its stabilizers failed.

[Stark]

So what does 'knocked out of the system' mean? Where is the border of the system that you can be 'outside'? How fast did it travel?

Oh wait we're supposed to leap from 'it moved' to 'OMG IT IS INVULNERABLE TO DAMAGE'.

[Junghalli]

I bow to others who actually know anything about Mass Effect when it comes to questions of interpretation.

Anyway, assuming it is definitely described as having been actively propelled out of orbit we can get a lower limit of being able to survive dozens of terawatts (the equivalent of dozens of kilotons per second) for extended periods of time, and a highball of the equivalent of hundreds of megatons per second if we assume acceleration purely by light pressure. Impressive enough, but not necessarily conclusive as to it being effectively indestructible with Federation technology.

Also, keep in mind this assumes an arbitrary figure for mass (equivalent to a medium-sized asteroid - several billion tons), which could easily be way off, and probably would be.

[Stargazer]

The general idea of a "system", in colloquial understanding, is basically as far as Pluto. Which is where the mass relay in the Sol system is. But even disregarding that...

If "system" is small, then the relay had to be close to the star. If "system" is large, then the relay had to be knocked a considerable distance to be considered outside of the system. And it had to be fast enough to make it extremely difficult to locate the relay after the supernova had died down.

Let me put this another way: Do the Feds have any weapons or explosives capable of pushing a 15 km long object like a mass relay outside a star system like that? No.

[Junghalli]

Personally I've been assuming that leaving the system means reaching escape velocity from the star and no longer being gravitationally bound to it. It's much less arbitrary than defining it based on proximity.

[Junghalli]

Let me put this another way: Do the Feds have any weapons or explosives capable of pushing a 15 km long object like a mass relay outside a star system like that? No.

Can we be sure?

I'm pretty sure they accelerate smaller objects to much higher speeds all the time. As I remember in TMP the Enterprise got to the orbit of Jupiter from Earth in less than a day, which would imply near relativistic speeds. The energy of accelerating a 10,000 ton ship to 10,000 km/s (roughly the required velocity to reach Jupiter in 24 hours) is a third of that required to accelerate a 2 billion ton object (my assumed mass for the relay) to solar escape velocity from an Earth-like orbit. Based on that, three Constitution refits should be able to replicate the feat of pushing the relay out of the system.

It's been a while since I watched that movie though so forgive me if I remembered it wrong.

[Stark]

The general idea of a "system", in colloquial understanding, is basically as far as Pluto. Which is where the mass relay in the Sol system is. But even disregarding that...

If "system" is small, then the relay had to be close to the star. If "system" is large, then the relay had to be knocked a considerable distance to be considered outside of the system. And it had to be fast enough to make it extremely difficult to locate the relay after the supernova had died down.

Let me put this another way: Do the Feds have any weapons or explosives capable of pushing a 15 km long object like a mass relay outside a star system like that? No.

No, it isn't. The 'Sol system' includes shit way, way further out than Pluto. Oops. Your hilarious hand-wringing about 'large' and 'small' when you don't even consider the maximum speed impartable by a supernova shockwave is ... great stuff. You're even too stupid to consider that if we stupidly decide that the border of a 'system' is the orbit of its farthest planet, it can be pushed 'out of the system' by moving a single meter depending on its initial position. Oops!

I forgot that in idiot-world a supernova blast front at say 30AU is some unstoppable pressure per square meter.

Junghalli, your definition is fucking bizarre, but even using that it's pretty clear the ME event doesn't have enough information to determine if it's on a free outbound path or just a really wide orbit. I'm not even sure Stargazer here considered that an object moving away from a star might ever come back.

[Stargazer]

Ok, Stark. Here's your numbers.

Using the energy of a Type II supernova as described here and the energy calculator here, at the apihelion of Pluto's orbit as noted here a Type II supernova would deliver 4.28*10^9 megajoules of energy per square centimeter. That's 4.28 petajoules per square centimeter of the mass relay.

Make of that what you will.

[Stark]

Sounds like a giant red herring to me, champ! Without knowing anything about the supernova (or even if it was a supernova at all, given the poor science in ME) or the vector (before and after) of the relay, it's totally useless.

I know you hear 'knock out of system' and you think a giant Michael Bay petrol bomb blasting the relay out into deep space (or a nearby system, you seem like a bit of a wanker) but without actual information it's useless. You only mentioned it regarding teh Fed's apparent inability to stop relays working, even!

[keen320]

If the federation could move a mass relay with tractor beams (might be doable with enough tugs), they could drag it towards a star and fling it inside, rendering it unusable, whether it was destroyed or not.

Also, why are we having a huge argument about how tough mass relays are, again?

[Stark]

He's claiming that the ME reliance on mass-relays isn't a weakness for rallying their full fleets because they're immune to damage, interference, etc.

[Stargazer]

Sounds like a giant red herring to me, champ! Without knowing anything about the supernova (or even if it was a supernova at all, given the poor science in ME) or the vector (before and after) of the relay, it's totally useless.

I know you hear 'knock out of system' and you think a giant Michael Bay petrol bomb blasting the relay out into deep space (or a nearby system, you seem like a bit of a wanker) but without actual information it's useless. You only mentioned it regarding teh Fed's apparent inability to stop relays working, even!

Alright then, using the lowest supernova yield from that webpage, the energy per square centimeter imparted on the mass relay would still be 165 terajoules.

How would vector matter when it comes to the raw energy imparted on the relay?

And yes keen320, dropping a mass relay in a star would render it useless, whether or not it survived. But I've yet to see evidence the Feds can move a 15 km object so casually.

And btw Stark, mass relays in relation to ME strategy is not what I am specifically claiming. I am specifically claiming that the Federation lacks the firepower to destroy a mass relay. But why would the Feds do this in the first place? It would leave them a good several months, if not years, cut off from the connected star cluster.

[Stark]

Uh, champ, even a relay stationary to a star has a vector... this is highschool stuff.

Technically changing that vector to be a very wide orbit or a free path out is 'blasting it out of the system' without it having to be some ridiculous KNOCKED A LIGHTYEAR AWAY BY FIREBALL silliness.

If you're just being a shithead about it, why not demonstrate they can't just get aboard and wave plasma torches around until it stops working?

[Stargazer]

The wording is "knocked out of the system". It's a pretty big stretch to take "knocked out" to mean "its path was changed so it floated out of the system". That also would make it more predictable to recover, but the Council races couldn't. Anyways, that only has to do with what happened to the relay afterwards. There's still the matter of the supernova which at a minimum delivered hundreds of terajoules to the relay per centimeter squared, assuming the weakest type of a supernova and that the distance from the star was the same as the Charon mass relay's apihelion from the Sun (we have no reason to assume it would be greater).

If the Feds have terawatt level plasma torches, then sure, that would work. Now why don't you provide an example of one of those?

[Star Wars 888]

The mass relays are likely similar in material makeup to the Citadel. The Citadelwas stated to take days worth of either a dreadnought or a fleet at point blank range to dent it.

A dreadnought can fire a 28 kiloton slug at a rof of 1 shot per 2 seconds. Therefore it could be possible to estimate a lower figure for the Citadel's durability. However, dreadnought's had more weapons than their main cannons, ao the actual figure is likely far higher.

If the Federation destroys the mass relays, they'd also be crippling their own logistical capabilities, arguably more than Mass Effect since Mass Effect has the advantage of an infastructure, arguably faster ftl and likely access to relays that the Federation wouldn't be able to find.

[keen320]

And yes keen320, dropping a mass relay in a star would render it useless, whether or not it survived. But I've yet to see evidence the Feds can move a 15 km object so casually.

Only nitpicking because it's my idea, but I didn't mean to suggest the Federation could do it "casually." I was thinking dozens of tugs, minimum. Of course, I have no idea how much mass a Fed tug could move, how fast, or how heavy a mass relay is. But all they would have to do is get it on a trajectory toward the star, and it would eventually fall in. I figure they could do that much if they tried, but it might take months or years for the relay to fall in if they can't move it fast enough, far to long to be practical.

[Stark]

The wording is "knocked out of the system". It's a pretty big stretch to take "knocked out" to mean "its path was changed so it floated out of the system". That also would make it more predictable to recover, but the Council races couldn't. Anyways, that only has to do with what happened to the relay afterwards. There's still the matter of the supernova which at a minimum delivered hundreds of terajoules to the relay per centimeter squared, assuming the weakest type of a supernova and that the distance from the star was the same as the Charon mass relay's apihelion from the Sun (we have no reason to assume it would be greater).

If the Feds have terawatt level plasma torches, then sure, that would work. Now why don't you provide an example of one of those?

You're fcking dumb. Even if anyone accepted you no numbers dialog argument, the relays aren't solid and they're complex devices. If you can't work out how someone could get inside and pull the wiring out your head is so far up your ass you're breathing shit.

Using citadel hyperbole (in a qoute that makes no sense) to justify other hyperbole is just fucking hilarious.

I know it's fashionable to rag on ST, but honestly, ME difficult to quantify in a meaningful way and are shown to be colossal morons. In short, it's a good matchup no matter how many invincible relays/simple minded analysis you fanboys kick out.

[Stargazer]

You're fcking dumb. Even if anyone accepted you no numbers dialog argument, the relays aren't solid and they're complex devices. If you can't work out how someone could get inside and pull the wiring out your head is so far up your ass you're breathing shit.

Mass relays work on an entirely different tech base, such that the Council races are unable to reproduce it. It's not a man-operated structure, so it's not like there is an access point that can be exploited. You don't even know if there are spaces inside the mass relay big enough for a humanoid to fit it. If the Council races don't even know how to start to disable a mass relay, why can the Feds do it?

I know it's fashionable to rag on ST, but honestly, ME difficult to quantify in a meaningful way and are shown to be colossal morons. In short, it's a good matchup no matter how many invincible relays/simple minded analysis you fanboys kick out.

Says the ME hater who loves making himself look like an unintelligent mudslinger.

[Stofsk]

Uh... the Council races know enough about mass relays to activate them if they've been dormant. That's part of the reason why the rachni wars happened. That implies there is some level of understanding available, and also implies a relay can be disabled or rendered 'dormant'.

[Junghalli]

You don't even know if there are spaces inside the mass relay big enough for a humanoid to fit it.

Is there any reason to think they couldn't plausibly just use transporters to beam pieces of machinery out of it?

[Stark]

Shhhh. He just got cross because I called him names for being stupid, simpleminded, credulous, using no numbers, etc. That means all his points are correct!

Also, nothing that is automatic needs access points.

The Council races are SO FUCKING STUPID they had an inactive mass relay A HUNDRED METERS FROM THEIR SEAT OF GOVERNMENT for THOUSANDS OF YEARS and never even fucking noticed. I hardly think they're a litmus test for how difficult something is, and just breaking the shit out of it so it doesn't work could well be very easy.

Remember, the Feds firing a probe at a relay = they are better than every single person in the entire ME universe.

[Stargazer]

Uh... the Council races know enough about mass relays to activate them if they've been dormant. That's part of the reason why the rachni wars happened. That implies there is some level of understanding available, and also implies a relay can be disabled or rendered 'dormant'.

The Council knew how to activate the mass relays from records left by the Protheans, a civilization that existed fifty thousand years before them. They themselves did not understand the mass relays (except for a top secret project completed right before they were wiped out) , but recovered data on how to activate them from the previous civilization, and so on and so forth. The relays were originally created by the Reapers, and only they know how they work

You don't even know if there are spaces inside the mass relay big enough for a humanoid to fit it.

Is there any reason to think they couldn't plausibly just use transporters to beam pieces of machinery out of it?

Can you provide an example of transporters separating material on the level of durability as the mass relays? Would've been nice to use against the Planet Killer.

Shhhh. He just got cross because I called him names for being stupid, simpleminded, credulous, using no numbers, etc. That means all his points are correct!

And you calling me all that makes all your points correct!

Also, nothing that is automatic needs access points.

That was my point. Learn to read.

The Council races are SO FUCKING STUPID they had an inactive mass relay A HUNDRED METERS FROM THEIR SEAT OF GOVERNMENT for THOUSANDS OF YEARS and never even fucking noticed. I hardly think they're a litmus test for how difficult something is, and just breaking the shit out of it so it doesn't work could well be very easy.

An INACTIVE relay. That was only ONE WAY, and COULD NOT be used or activated on THEIR END.

SEE. I can type in CAPS TOO.

[Stofsk]

What about the eezo core that's out in the open? One would think that if there's an exploitable weakness in mass relays it would be that. Eventually those cores have to be replaced or refueled.

EDIT: Also mass relays do have control interfaces in the form of 'dark switches' which are vaguely described. Check under March 18: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Cerber ... March_2010