Kilimanjaro-class dreadnought (Mass Effect) vs Galaxy-class

[Jawawithagun]

The only limiting factor on sensors apparently is light lag. Here's the whole codex entry on sensors:

""Light lag" prevents sensing in real time at great distances. A ship firing its thrusters at the Charon Relay can be easily detected from Earth, 5.75 light-hours (six billion kilometers) away, but Earth will only see the event five hours and 45 minutes after it occurs. Due to the light-speed limit, defenders can't see enemies coming until they have already arrived. Because there is FTL travel and communications but no FTL sensors, frigates are crucial for scouting and picket duties.

Is there a particular reason why they don't use automatic sensor buoys for longer range work? If you are on Earth and you want to know when a ship fires its thrusters at the Charon Relay, just put some sensors there and have them tell you per FTL comm when they notice something. Suddenly your defenders gain 5.75 hours to prepare themself.

[Omeganian]

For the ramming there, the vigor with which the enemy ships blow up tells me they must have been loaded with bombs; they are acting like guided torpedoes.

The ship in 2:29 seems to be cleanly sliced in half. No sign of explosives.

[Stargazer]

BTW, you guys here are officially less biased than the Starfleet Jedi forums. I made a thread there pitting a Kilimanjaro against an ISD, and no one has really come to the ISD's defense yet.

Or maybe it's just Stark that is biased against Mass Effect.

[Stark]

It'd help if you could prove jack shit; you can't even establish what kind of accuracy their weapons have at a given range! You continue to ignore that the Galaxy can just Picard manouvre them to death or sit at range and use the nav deflector to wait it out for a diplomatic resolution.

Bear in mind that dreadnoughts had gun ranges in excess of a dozen miles, but wouldn't expect to hit shit at that range.

And if ME used sensor posts, that'd make the finale of ME1 pretty fucking stupid.

[Stargazer]

It'd help if you could prove jack shit; you can't even establish what kind of accuracy their weapons have at a given range! You continue to ignore that the Galaxy can just Picard manouvre them to death or sit at range and use the nav deflector to wait it out for a diplomatic resolution.

Bear in mind that dreadnoughts had gun ranges in excess of a dozen miles, but wouldn't expect to hit shit at that range.

No, the point of me posting- in both forums- is to test the bias level of the forums. I firmly believe a Kilimanjaro would lose to an ISD, and while against a Galaxy would be closer, it probably would still lose. I just wanted to see how far each forum would go to defend the universe they so often argue against. For SD.net- pretty reasonable lengths. For Starfleet Jedi- no length at all.

I have a feeling you'll twist whatever I say about range to suit your presuppositions and downplaying of Mass Effect, so I'll just post the whole section on "General Tactics" from the Mass Effect codex.

"Shells lofted by surface navies crash back to earth when their acceleration is overwhelmed by gravity and air resistance. In space, a projectile has unlimited range, it will keep moving until it hits something.

Practical gunnery range is determined by the velocity of the attacker's ordinance and the maneuverability of the target. Beyond a certain range, a small ship's ability to dodge trumps a larger attacker's projectile speed. The largest-ranged combat occurs between dreadnoughts, whose projectiles have the highest velocity but are the least maneuverable. The shortest-range combat is between frigates, which have the slowest projectile velocities and highest maneuverability.

Opposing dreadnoughts open with main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. The fleet close, maintaining evasive lateral motion while keeping their bow guns facing the enemy. Fighters are launched and attempt to close to disruptor torpedo range. Cautious admirals weaken the enemy with ranged fire and fighter strikes before committing to close action. Aggressive commanders advance so cruisers and frigates can engage.

At LONG range, the main guns of cruisers become useful. Friendly interceptors engage enemy fighters until the attackers enter the range of ship-based GARDIAN fire. Dreadnoughts fire from the rear, screened by smaller ships. Commanders must decide whether to commit to a general melee or retreat into FTL.

At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns. Fleets intermingle, and it becomes difficult to retreat in order. Ships with damaged kinetic barriers are vulnerable to wolfpack1 frigate flotillas that speed through the battle space.

Only fighters and frigates enter CLOSE "knife fight" ranges of 10 or fewer kilometers. Fighters loose their disruptor torpedoes, bringing down a ship's kinetic barriers and allowing it to be swarmed by frigates. GARDIAN lasers become viable weapons, swatting down fighters and boiling away warship armor.

Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard. "

And if ME used sensor posts, that'd make the finale of ME1 pretty fucking stupid.

We've been over this before, Stark. It's kind of pointless because the devs themselves have said that the cinematics for the battle were stupid. So you're pretty much beating a dead horse rather than actually making a snide point.

[Stofsk]

According to a drill sergeant character in ME2, it's about 3,900 km/s.

[Stargazer]

4025 km/s at least, possibly more.

[Stark]

No, the point of me posting- in both forums- is to test the bias level of the forums. I firmly believe a Kilimanjaro would lose to an ISD, and while against a Galaxy would be closer, it probably would still lose. I just wanted to see how far each forum would go to defend the universe they so often argue against. For SD.net- pretty reasonable lengths. For Starfleet Jedi- no length at all.

So you're trolling? lol!

I have a feeling you'll twist whatever I say about range to suit your presuppositions and downplaying of Mass Effect, so I'll just post the whole section on "General Tactics" from the Mass Effect codex.

Well = poisoned.

"Shells lofted by surface navies crash back to earth when their acceleration is overwhelmed by gravity and air resistance. In space, a projectile has unlimited range, it will keep moving until it hits something.

Practical gunnery range is determined by the velocity of the attacker's ordinance and the maneuverability of the target. Beyond a certain range, a small ship's ability to dodge trumps a larger attacker's projectile speed. The largest-ranged combat occurs between dreadnoughts, whose projectiles have the highest velocity but are the least maneuverable. The shortest-range combat is between frigates, which have the slowest projectile velocities and highest maneuverability.

Turns out Bioware don't know what accuracy is. This is shocking?

Opposing dreadnoughts open with main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. The fleet close, maintaining evasive lateral motion while keeping their bow guns facing the enemy. Fighters are launched and attempt to close to disruptor torpedo range. Cautious admirals weaken the enemy with ranged fire and fighter strikes before committing to close action. Aggressive commanders advance so cruisers and frigates can engage.

Obviously they miss a lot or there would be no 'closing'. Note there are no numbers at all here; for all we know they fire hundreds of rounds per hit, just like wet dreadnoughts.

At LONG range, the main guns of cruisers become useful. Friendly interceptors engage enemy fighters until the attackers enter the range of ship-based GARDIAN fire. Dreadnoughts fire from the rear, screened by smaller ships. Commanders must decide whether to commit to a general melee or retreat into FTL.

Meaningless.

At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns. Fleets intermingle, and it becomes difficult to retreat in order. Ships with damaged kinetic barriers are vulnerable to wolfpack1 frigate flotillas that speed through the battle space.

Only fighters and frigates enter CLOSE "knife fight" ranges of 10 or fewer kilometers. Fighters loose their disruptor torpedoes, bringing down a ship's kinetic barriers and allowing it to be swarmed by frigates. GARDIAN lasers become viable weapons, swatting down fighters and boiling away warship armor.

I guess the dreadnoughts are still missing, then.

Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard. "

WE READ RINGWORLD HONEST

We've been over this before, Stark. It's kind of pointless because the devs themselves have said that the cinematics for the battle were stupid. So you're pretty much beating a dead horse rather than actually making a snide point.

Did they say that part was stupid? No. And frankly, it isn't my fault ME is a universe so shit they don't even pay attention.

POSSIBLY MORE lol.

Not only a troll, a troll who simply ignores everything. I say what others have said - Picard manouvre. Nav deflector. ME loses. Fuck off.

[Stargazer]

So you're trolling? lol!

Depends on your definition of trolling. If it's purposefully trying to annoy others? Then no, I'm not trying. If it's trying to get a reaction, whether or not that reaction is one of annoyance? I suppose.

Well = poisoned.

And you only have yourself to blame.

Turns out Bioware don't know what accuracy is. This is shocking?

Show me where the word "accuracy" is used there. Go on, show me.

Obviously they miss a lot or there would be no 'closing'. Note there are no numbers at all here; for all we know they fire hundreds of rounds per hit, just like wet dreadnoughts.

You have a point there, but the "closing" is more for the benefit of smaller ships and their slower projectiles than for the dreadnought's benefit, as the next paragraph states the dreadnoughts fire from the rear as the smaller ships advance.

Did they say that part was stupid? No. And frankly, it isn't my fault ME is a universe so shit they don't even pay attention.

POSSIBLY MORE lol.

Oh, my mistake. You're calling the events leading up to the battle, which we see or hear absolutely nothing about, stupid? On what grounds?

Not only a troll, a troll who simply ignores everything. I say what others have said - Picard manouvre. Nav deflector. ME loses. Fuck off.

You seem to think that I claimed somewhere that the Kilimanjaro would win. I thought I already admitted that it would lose.

[Stark]

Are you stupid? They don't mention accuracy because they don't think its relevant. This is clear throughout the entire ME setting; they honestly think 100% accuracy is a sensible concept, despite their beer-mat codex entry explictly describing long-term combat with omg teh railz.

Either they miss or they suck. Choose.

Oh and continue to defend ME's plot, that's fucking gold. Yeah, there was a huge battle and everyone knew what was happenign which is why the entire Citadel fleet was caught out of position and napping. You're so right!

I forgot, you can't actually discuss anything beyond 'parrot codex' and 'poison wells'. Your meaningless regurgitation of ME milwank is hilarious, but its irrelevant and has been for pages.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Okay, let's disregard that hilariously awful space battle at the end of ME1 and go on given numbers here.
If that whole 'tens of thousands of kilometers' thing is accurate that gives us 20000 kilometers a low-end figure for distance. If we take Drill Sargent Newton is the deadliest SOB in space's word on round velocity, that's 3900-4025 kilometers per second.
Do the math, that's a little under or a little over 5 seconds from firing to impact at low-end distance figures. I know it doesn't sound like much, but take a look at a clock or your watch and just wait for the little hand to twitch five times, it's long enough.

Yeah, my money's on the Galaxy class. Shields and superior weapons aside, if they have a ping on the dreadnought and can deduce things like 'they're charging weapons' as they do in so many episodes, I'm going to say that 5 seconds is more than enough time for Ol' Galaxy to move her fat ass out of the way, or in the very least do whatever it is that they do (navigational deflector, other such mechanisms) to get little chunks of inconvenience out of they way when they decide to zip around. If the round was a little more massive, like say a couple tons moving at the same speed, I'd be leery as to the Nav-Def's ability to swat it out of the way, but a 20kg ball of iron moving at a relativistic snail fart? Not buying it.

Also, come on Stark, ease up. StarGazer's barely being an asshat, and the codex is canon like it or not. Wrath and venom are fine so long as it's deserved, but your reactions here are a touch disproportionate in relation to what's been said, to the extent that it's overshadowing the points you make with bile.

[Stargazer]

Are you stupid? They don't mention accuracy because they don't think its relevant. This is clear throughout the entire ME setting; they honestly think 100% accuracy is a sensible concept, despite their beer-mat codex entry explictly describing long-term combat with omg teh railz.

Either they miss or they suck. Choose.

That's your interpretation. It could be that they just imply that weapons are accurate up to that range.

Oh and continue to defend ME's plot, that's fucking gold. Yeah, there was a huge battle and everyone knew what was happenign which is why the entire Citadel fleet was caught out of position and napping. You're so right!

The "out of position and napping" comes from the cinematic. Which you just said wasn't the part you were calling stupid. Make up your mind already.

I forgot, you can't actually discuss anything beyond 'parrot codex' and 'poison wells'. Your meaningless regurgitation of ME milwank is hilarious, but its irrelevant and has been for pages.

You would rather me disregard the #1 source for Mass Effect technology information? Only when you stop using Star Trek episodes to provide capabilities for the GCS.

[Omeganian]

If the round was a little more massive, like say a couple tons moving at the same speed, I'd be leery as to the Nav-Def's ability to swat it out of the way, but a 20kg ball of iron moving at a relativistic snail fart? Not buying it.

What's this Nav Def's ability? Some kind of religion? Judging from the on-screen evidence, the hit which sliced the Kilngon cruiser in half wasn't 10% the energy of a dreadnought round (480 meter length of the cruiser passed in around 0.75 seconds, a ship of maybe 20 000 tons).

[The Dark]

If the round was a little more massive, like say a couple tons moving at the same speed, I'd be leery as to the Nav-Def's ability to swat it out of the way, but a 20kg ball of iron moving at a relativistic snail fart? Not buying it.

What's this Nav Def's ability? Some kind of religion? Judging from the on-screen evidence, the hit which sliced the Kilngon cruiser in half wasn't 10% the energy of a dreadnought round (480 meter length of the cruiser passed in around 0.75 seconds, a ship of maybe 20 000 tons).

According to the DS9 Tech Manual (non-canon, I know, but it at least can give ballpark figures), the Jem'Hadar attack ship is 2,450 tons, and the Klingon Negh'var is 4,310,000 tons.

[Stark]

What's this Nav Def's ability? Some kind of religion? Judging from the on-screen evidence, the hit which sliced the Kilngon cruiser in half wasn't 10% the energy of a dreadnought round (480 meter length of the cruiser passed in around 0.75 seconds, a ship of maybe 20 000 tons).

Are you fucking stupid? The only problem I can see with using the nav deflector is that it is a high-power system and maybe it is difficult to use without the warp system running (although this doesn't seem to be the case, as shown in BoBW). They have a system custom designed to detect, track, and destroy and push out of the way incoming shit at FTL speeds, and you think it can't detect, track, and destroy a pesky railgun slug? Why not? Shit, it's even fucking automatic!

Sorry I forgot you were too busy ignoring all but one datapoint!

Even if a slug hits them, they'll just Picard manouvre them to death. So... big deal?

[Stargazer]

Can you show just how the nav deflector accomplishes protecting the ship from kinetic impacts while at warp, Stark? The effectiveness of Jem'Hadar ramming, and the incident with the Scimitar, indicates that it may not be direct blocking as in force vs force. The nav deflector never comes up when talking about starship defenses, except with a certain comment about lasers. Maybe it only blocks objects going a lightspeed or higher, then?

[Stark]

Uh, it shoots megabeams at incoming objects, and sometimes Borg cubes. Can you show how accurate dreadnought fire is at 10,000kms?

It never comes up because nobody uses slugthrowers and it only works in a very narrow arc forward, which makes it near useless in ST combat. If some twonk is sitting 10,000kms away and throwing slugs at them, I'm guessing things might be a tiny bit different.

The lasers comment probably doesn't refer to the deflector dish system anyway, but the basic shielding for cosmic radiation etc. The nav deflector dish would be pretty useless against lasers outside of a 'pew you're dead' approach.

[Stargazer]

Alright, then. Can you demonstrate it shooting a "megabeam" at an incoming object at FTL and destroying it? Or quote a canonical source describing how it works? I've never seen them do that while at warp.

[Stofsk]

Alright, then. Can you demonstrate it shooting a "megabeam" at an incoming object at FTL and destroying it? Or quote a canonical source describing how it works? I've never seen them do that while at warp.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Navigational_deflector

That lists a few instances where the navigational deflector has been used throughout the history of Star Trek. Under normal operation there are no 'megabeams' because they're just deflecting minute particles out of the path of the ship in question. Megabeams come into it when they want to tackle larger objects. The problem with using it against kamikaze ships is perhaps the difficulty in aiming the array (it's in a fixed position not unlike a spinal weapon). I'm not sure where the navigational deflectors are on Klingon ships to be honest. It's just as possible they weren't expecting the Jem'Hadar to make suicide runs and so didn't use the proper tactics.

[Stark]

They can use some huge portion of the ships' power output, so I think 'megabeam' is acceptable.

I'm not sure what utility it would be against ramming ships anyway, given the difference between momentum and KE and the impacts, etc. A slower, heavier ship is going to be a lot harder to deflect than a faster, massively lighter slug.

[Stofsk]

There's also the possibility that ships with powered warp fields and active deflectors can counteract the navigational deflectors enough to make a ramming attack. Something which a dumb round isn't going to have.

[Omeganian]

According to the DS9 Tech Manual (non-canon, I know, but it at least can give ballpark figures), the Jem'Hadar attack ship is 2,450 tons

Then the strike was noticably below the kiloton range. The ship's structure was incapable of handling it.

[The Dark]

The ship would be harder to deflect, but it would also carry far less energy if an impact occurred, based on KE:

Jem'Hadar impact: 3,125 MJ KE
Kilimanjaro slug: 1,600,000 MJ KE

That extra velocity means the railgun slug is far more energetic. It seems very much like a "golden BB" situation - the railgun should never hit, but if a shot gets through, the Trek ship is in trouble.

[Stargazer]

Your calculation is off. It's actually 162,000,000 MJ for the Kilimanjaro's slug. ((4,025,000m/s^2)*20 kg*.5=162,000,000,000,000 joules)

[Omeganian]

Two orders of magnitude seem to be missing in JH impact, too. And the speed taken is somewhat low (500 m/sec?). I calculated based on either 640 m/sec or 1 km/sec. Still, even that way, a 50 000 ton ship will only get about 15% of a dreadnought round's energy.