Replacing the Tyranids with the Yuuzhan Vong (RAR)

[evilsoup]

Not true. The Vong possess creatures known as ooglith and gablith masquers, which allow a Vong to visually mimic virtually any humanoid race of similar height. Oogliths are for humans, and gabliths are for Duros, etc. Since the vast majority of the SW galaxy's races are humanoid, they probably didn't bother trying to develop masquers for oddballs like the Hutts. Straightforward foreign-language training takes care of the rest. This is shown repeatedly throughout the series, as Vong infiltrators are uncovered from the Outer Rim to the lower levels of Coruscant.

To ID a masquer-disguised Yuuzhan Vong without a Force-user present, you need to use a complex set of sensors to detect their pheromones, body temperature, etc. These sensors are incorporated into the Yuuzhan Vong Hunter combat droids developed in mid-war by Lando Calrissian's latest company. (The Vong actually used ooglith masquers to spy on the demonstration of the YVH droids, but the demo unit detected and killed them immediately after Lando ended the demo program.)

Nearly a third of the Inquisition is dedicated to exactly this problem, and as a kicker, another full third is dedicated to hunting down regular humans who merely harbor rebellious sentiment. So, being an alien infiltrator trying to foment rebellious sentiment falls under the jurisdiction of two Ordos of the Inquisition whose sole purpose and reason for existence is to exterminate said alien infiltrator.

The Inquisition routinely fails to unearth genestealer cults, Chaos cultist, Tau infiltrators and other rebellious elements. This is for two reasons: 1) there simply aren't enough Inquisitors to go around, and 2) standard Inquisitorial practice seems to be 'torture everyone to death until one of them gives me information' (yes they also have webs of informants, but there are only so many people they can recruit personally, and an Inquisitor is unlikely to trust anyone they don't know personally).

That's merely the active response of the Imperium against infiltration. I seriously doubt Vong infiltrators would get very far against the intensely xenophobic and brutal Imperial power structures in the first place. One of the reasons that Nom Anor et al did well is because the New Republic was a very open and cosmopolitan society with a strong anti-militant, anti-police state mindset. Vong agents and informants couldn't reliably be stopped because the best the NR had was... the Bothans. By contrast, Vong agents are going to run up against a solid concrete wall of paranoid, xenophobic sentiment in the Imperium. Some outlying worlds with corrupt administration could likely be infiltrated thanks to the Imperium's decentralized nature, but the true power structures (the Administratum, Ecclesiarchy, etc) would be extremely difficult to infiltrate in the first place, nevermind the Inquisition's response.

Plenty of Planetary Governers are either incompetent or too ambitious, and so would jump at the opportunity to rebel from the Imperium if manipulated in the right ways. The Imperium's ban on alien tech also means that once the aristocracy of a planet have relatively innocently traded with aliens for toys (and I'm sure the Vong must have something interesting to the chinless wonder brigade) then they are already doomed to a slow, painful and degrading death at the hands of the Inquisition. So they have no reason not to rebel.

Furthermore, they don't need to infiltrate the highest levels of planetary hierarchy to seriously weaken defences. The Imperium is generally a horrible place to live, and the vast bulk of humanity is destined to live a short and miserable life before dying of space-asbestosis. Good luck fighting an effective war when the local PDF are on the other side, or the local factorum workers are sabotaging one in three artillery shells. If this goes on long enough then some of the more ambitious aristos will join the movement, and that'll give the Vong an 'in' to the leaders of the planet.

Note that I don't think this will make a difference in a proper war, unless the two sides are very evenly matched.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

The Inquisition routinely fails to unearth genestealer cults, Chaos cultist, Tau infiltrators and other rebellious elements.

Yes. Obviously the Inquisition isn't everywhere at once. I don't contest that some Vong infiltrators are going to be lurking around. The point is that the Vong did well against a pacifistic, inept NR, but those conditions just don't exist here.

This is for two reasons: 1) there simply aren't enough Inquisitors to go around,

Obviously.

and 2) standard Inquisitorial practice seems to be 'torture everyone to death until one of them gives me information' (yes they also have webs of informants, but there are only so many people they can recruit personally, and an Inquisitor is unlikely to trust anyone they don't know personally).

Now you're just being silly. Though it does bear mentioning that Vong have their weird pain/self-mutilation fetish... but then again, extracting information from unwilling creatures with a wholly alien mindset is the Inquisition's version of Remedial Pre-Algebra Arithmetic.

Plenty of Planetary Governers are either incompetent or too ambitious, and so would jump at the opportunity to rebel from the Imperium if manipulated in the right ways. The Imperium's ban on alien tech also means that once the aristocracy of a planet have relatively innocently traded with aliens for toys (and I'm sure the Vong must have something interesting to the chinless wonder brigade) then they are already doomed to a slow, painful and degrading death at the hands of the Inquisition. So they have no reason not to rebel.

Like I said, outlying worlds with corrupt administration are relatively easy targets. My point is that the decentralized nature of the Imperium renders this kind of infiltration nearly useless. That's why the Imperium is organized the way it is; if one governor decides the Blessed Gifts of Father Nurgle are cooler than serving the Emperor and the planet turns into a huge disease-ridden slimeball belching out plague-Guardsmen, then... oh, it's Tuesday.

And the latter idea is just absurd. Do you start committing murder just because you've been caught shoplifting? The Imperium's power plays are hardly so black and white as executing a planetary governor on a whim just because he has his fingers in some xenotech.

Furthermore, they don't need to infiltrate the highest levels of planetary hierarchy to seriously weaken defences. The Imperium is generally a horrible place to live, and the vast bulk of humanity is destined to live a short and miserable life before dying of space-asbestosis. Good luck fighting an effective war when the local PDF are on the other side, or the local factorum workers are sabotaging one in three artillery shells. If this goes on long enough then some of the more ambitious aristos will join the movement, and that'll give the Vong an 'in' to the leaders of the planet.

PDF rebel all the time. It isn't very interesting. The point here is that you can do all the localized damage you want; but the Imperium is by design decentralized to the point where all the localized damage in the world just has zero effect on the body as a whole.

Note that I don't think this will make a difference in a proper war, unless the two sides are very evenly matched.

It won't. That's the point. The Vong can't establish the kind of beachhead like they did against the NR. They may grab a few outlying worlds, but they can't paralyze the Imperium's response, because it isn't centralized and open the way the NR was.

[Serafina]

There are plenty of examples of Inquisitors successfully torturing Slaanesh-cultists. People who crave pain, or indeed any intense sensation. I don't see any reason why they would not succeed with Yuuzhan Vong - they CAN employ more sophisticated torture than just crude pain infliction.

[Interlord1]

Would dovin basals even be able to stop lances, They are lasers, so would they be able to notice that it is incoming and turn on a black hole before the laser, moving at the speed of light, hits, or does it have black holes constantly on? If that sentence made any sense, I'm saying this because they stop turbolasers, but they are slower than light.

[Boeing 757]

Would dovin basals even be able to stop lances, They are lasers, so would they be able to notice that it is incoming and turn on a black hole before the laser, moving at the speed of light, hits, or does it have black holes constantly on? If that sentence made any sense, I'm saying this because they stop turbolasers, but they are slower than light.

Well, according to the AOTC:ICS turbolasers are also lightspeed-propagating with a visible waste-glow portion which is sublight (namely the colored portion of the weapon that we see). Based on that I doubt that lances will be any more effective than TLs.

[evilsoup]

The issue isn't whether the Inquisition could torture info out of the Vong or any of their agents - they are the second-best torturers in the galaxy. The issue is if they will find the conspiracies in the first place, and if they will survive once they have (actually that's a bit less of an issue as Inquisitors are veritable badasses). Given that hive worlds (places you'd expect the local Inquisitor to be paying attention to) have fallen to conspiracies, we know that Inquisitors are not foolproof.

Would dovin basals even be able to stop lances, They are lasers, so would they be able to notice that it is incoming and turn on a black hole before the laser, moving at the speed of light, hits, or does it have black holes constantly on? If that sentence made any sense, I'm saying this because they stop turbolasers, but they are slower than light.

Well, according to the AOTC:ICS turbolasers are also lightspeed-propagating with a visible waste-glow portion which is sublight (namely the colored portion of the weapon that we see). Based on that I doubt that lances will be any more effective than TLs.

Does the on-screen evidence support that? Do we see any damage happening to ships before the visible turbolaser hits?

[Panzersharkcat]

Does the on-screen evidence support that? Do we see any damage happening to ships before the visible turbolaser hits?

Supposedly, there are but I don't remember any instances right now. There is this image taken from the Imperial Wiki, though.

It's a bolt passing through the A-Wing harmlessly.

[Vendetta]

Does the on-screen evidence support that? Do we see any damage happening to ships before the visible turbolaser hits?

Actually, yes. In the very first FX shot of Star Wars, the pyro for the explosions on the corvette go off a few frames before the rotoscoped turbolaser bolt hits.

[evilsoup]

Well okay then.

[Elessar]

The issue isn't whether the Inquisition could torture info out of the Vong or any of their agents - they are the second-best torturers in the galaxy. The issue is if they will find the conspiracies in the first place, and if they will survive once they have (actually that's a bit less of an issue as Inquisitors are veritable badasses). Given that hive worlds (places you'd expect the local Inquisitor to be paying attention to) have fallen to conspiracies, we know that Inquisitors are not foolproof.

What point are you trying to get at here? We're saying that as a rule, the Imperium of Man is designed to root out conspiracies and heresies that take root magically (literally). The New Republic is not designed this way. Furthermore, that even in the case of conspiracies reaching their climax, it doesn't matter because the Imperium is used to this and in fact, expects a fair number to fall as simple attrition. Again, the New Republic isn't designed this way.

So yes, you're right, the Inquisition won't have a 100% batting average. But it doesn't matter. The plots that are truly important will be caught by variety of reasons and institutions, and the ones that fail will be typical in the IOM and life goes on. The infiltrators will not damage the truly important institutions when better infiltrators (such as Chaos) than the YV have failed. Look at the Gothic War. They had decades to prepare in the safety of the Eye, along with the powers of the warp and still couldn't decapitate the Gothic Battlefleet at Port Maw.

[Hawkwings]

The Inquisition isn't even the primary groups responsible for finding and rooting out heresy, rebellion, and malcontent. That duty falls upon the Adeptus Arbites, and they're usually pretty good at what they do. Of course, discontent is a regular and expected event on many Imperial worlds. It's not even that a new cult springing up is Tuesday, it's that a new cult springing up is 3:45 prayer break.

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't think its an automatic curbstomp one way or another. The Vong are generally overrated as a threat, becuase the NR was basically inept for a good chunk of the war's start, which allowed the Vong to establisha foothold and build up its forces. We'r etold several times if the Empire had been in charge the Vong woul dhave been crushed in short order. So basically the Vong are going to enter the 40K galaxy low on resources and ships, which means they need to establish bases and territory.

Their chief advantage in 40K is going to be hyperdrive which is faster and more reliable. Dovin basals won't stirp powerfields or void shields, and their hulls really weren't as powerful as SW hulls without the Dovin Basal defenses. Ground wise, they're hard pressed to fight. Vong warriors have mostly thrown (albeit guided) weapons and short range flamethrower-like attacks, and rely mainly on strong armor (which resists lightsabers) and melee weapons to do damage.

I suspect their infiltration efforts will work in 40K, and may benefit to certain extent with villip communictions, but the decenteralized nature of the Imperium can make coordinating beyond the sector level hard if they want to keep secret. And their buildup will have to be significantly greater to handle the Imperium, as well as the myraid other races they will face, since the Imperium was (IIRC) much larger than the NJO new republic.

The big problem of course will remain that the Vong will be up against EVERYONE in 40K, not just the Imperium. And they really lack the genetic adaptability, the numbers, and the ability to use biomass in the way the 'Nids do.

[StarSword]

We'r etold several times if the Empire had been in charge the Vong woul dhave been crushed in short order.

Han Solo rather pointedly disputes that during a meeting with the Imperial Remnant (I think during the Force Heretic books). I don't remember what he said, exactly, but the upshot was, "Palpatine's Empire wouldn't do any better: they'd spend all their time building some ridiculously powerful superweapon to scare the Vong into submission, and make a hell of a lot of noise. And it wouldn't work: some fool would leave a part off or screw up his math, and the whole thing would be blown up by a hotshot Yuuzhan Vong coralskipper pilot."

I admit this is a nitpick, but this is because I agree with your other points.

[hongi]

Why should we trust what Han has to say?

[OmegaChief]

Especially when it seems to be the author taking a dig at the various EU wackiness that happened at various stages with all those imperial superweapons.

[Connor MacLeod]

We'r etold several times if the Empire had been in charge the Vong woul dhave been crushed in short order.

Han Solo rather pointedly disputes that during a meeting with the Imperial Remnant (I think during the Force Heretic books). I don't remember what he said, exactly, but the upshot was, "Palpatine's Empire wouldn't do any better: they'd spend all their time building some ridiculously powerful superweapon to scare the Vong into submission, and make a hell of a lot of noise. And it wouldn't work: some fool would leave a part off or screw up his math, and the whole thing would be blown up by a hotshot Yuuzhan Vong coralskipper pilot."

I admit this is a nitpick, but this is because I agree with your other points.

As I recall the Vong themselves flat out admitted that if the Empire had remained intact they would have had a harder time fighting. That's why Nom Anor spent decades to topple the Republic and empire, as I recall the plot going.

But even if we disregard that and take Han's stuff at face value so what? Yeah they do dick around with superewapons, but that doesn't suck up all their military reosurces.. they still have tremendous recruiment and shipbuilding efforst, they're more militarized than the Republic, and they're less likely to dick around and delay and generally let the Vong establish themselves and faiclities in the galaxy without retaliation. Remember that the Vong were coming off a generations long voyage between galaxies.. their ships were wearing out and they needed to find worlds to colonize and to rebuild from. A fair bit of delaying and politicking and general dickinga roud in the NR lead to the early debacles, and much of that won't apply (or if it does, it will to a lesser degree) to the Empire.

[Crazedwraith]

As I recall the Vong themselves flat out admitted that if the Empire had remained intact they would have had a harder time fighting. That's why Nom Anor spent decades to topple the Republic and empire, as I recall the plot going.

No. Nom Anor says that. The Pathological liar and twister of things to his own ends.

[bilateralrope]

Hypredrive does have another major advantage ovevr Warp travel that hasn't been discussed yet: If a warp storm doesn't intrude into the materium, it still cuts off warp travel, but hyperdrive should remain unaffected. Meaning that if the Vong settle planets inside a warp storm then the Imperium can't touch it.

The only problems with this plan are:
- I don't know how rare suitable warp storms are compared to ones that do intrude into the materium, and the Vong can't use them if they don't find them.
- The Vong might not have any way to tell them apart. Which may lead to them thinking the Eye of Terror, being a huge warp storm, is going to be a good hiding place
- Warp storms won't protect from everybody.

Then there is the issue of mapping the galaxy. The Empire can solve this with probe droid spam, but I don't know if the Vong have any equilivant (or the resources to pull it off) and the Imperiums maps will be more concerned with warp routes than the layout of the materium, making their use questionable. But this should only delay them.

[lord Martiya]

As I recall the Vong themselves flat out admitted that if the Empire had remained intact they would have had a harder time fighting. That's why Nom Anor spent decades to topple the Republic and empire, as I recall the plot going.

No. Nom Anor says that. The Pathological liar and twister of things to his own ends.

True. But there's also the fact the Empire had a gigantic military, dwarfing everything the NR, the Imperial Remnants and their allies had combined. Just look at what an Executor-class Star Dreadnought and two other equivalent ships (the Viscount, designed to take on the Executors, and the Harbinger, class unknown) could do to a Yuuzhan Vong fleet of 5,000 ships, and multiply it for five (as far I know, there're 15 Executors that have been built), then add the REST of the Imperial fleet... Ouch.

[DudeGuyMan]

So let's say the Vong send some spies in well in advance, as they did with the NR. The spies don't manage to infiltrate anything really important, but they figure out the basic stuff that everyone knows. You know, how the Imperium works, where major planets are, stuff like that.

The Vong find out that this Imperium has a very strict hierarchy, that these crazy humans believe the universe will basically end if their precious Emperor dies, and they decide that their best bet is to try to decapitate their enemy at a stroke. To that end, the entire Vong invasion force says "To hell with our limited resources!" and hauls ass for Terra before doing anything else, figuring that the strategic surprise will be worth it. They throw absolutely everything they have at the Sol system in one big Pearl Harbor blitz.

Can they destroy whatever defenses Terra has in place when it's not particularly expecting an imminent attack? If they gain space superiority, can they fuck up Terra itself enough to kill the Emperor? If they can, what happens then?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

There are a few problems with that scenario (I know Connor has frequently pointed out the issue of hyperspace mapping an entirely new galaxy, for example), but other than that it's actually an interesting question.

Although, for one thing, Terra is always expecting an attack. That's why if you deviate even slightly from the byzantine flight paths and authorizations required you get blown to bits just trying to enter the system.

Ultimately, though, defenses and epic space battle or not, it's total logistical suicide. Even if the Vong win, it will be completely Pyrrhic. They'd surely take truly obscene losses, and then they'd have nowhere to rearm, refuel, resupply, or re-anything. It'd be a kamikaze attack.

[Playerofeve]

Hello I don't post in most threads but I just wanted to point something out and see if it would make a difference, from what I've read and admittedly my knowledge of wh40k is limited compared to my roommates and most people on here, but if the nids are completely removed from the picture doesn't that also completely change the state of the galaxy at least in some places? it's widely know that their the ones who destroyed the squats and have been responsible for the destruction of a number very important worlds in the IOM, and they have also wreaked havoc with not only the Tau but also the Eldar, and if I remember correctly there was an entire book written about a hive fleet that was directed into the path an Ork Waaagh!.

I mean if one of the points of the o.p. is that the nids have been completely replaced I would think that this alone would significantly strengthen the IOM at least some areas and in a big way.

Sorry about any spelling errors but I don't often post in forums or anywhere else so I tend to over look such things

P.S. Is there any for me to change my ridiculous user name?

P.P.S Doesn't this also mean that the Battle for Macragge never happens?

[Connor MacLeod]

No. Nom Anor says that. The Pathological liar and twister of things to his own ends.

Which puts his statements on the same level of Han Solo, then. I suppose you could keep quibbling over whose opinion matters more (or the fact there were several statements that the Empire would crush the Vong) but as I said it's not really NECCESSARY to hinge an argument on that. The NR of the NJO era was so ridiculously retarded about the invasion they all but invited the Vong in and gave them territory. As I recall it wasn't about til midway in the series when they actually went on the offensive in any significant way.

So let's say the Vong send some spies in well in advance, as they did with the NR. The spies don't manage to infiltrate anything really important, but they figure out the basic stuff that everyone knows. You know, how the Imperium works, where major planets are, stuff like that.

The Vong find out that this Imperium has a very strict hierarchy, that these crazy humans believe the universe will basically end if their precious Emperor dies, and they decide that their best bet is to try to decapitate their enemy at a stroke. To that end, the entire Vong invasion force says "To hell with our limited resources!" and hauls ass for Terra before doing anything else, figuring that the strategic surprise will be worth it. They throw absolutely everything they have at the Sol system in one big Pearl Harbor blitz.

Can they destroy whatever defenses Terra has in place when it's not particularly expecting an imminent attack? If they gain space superiority, can they fuck up Terra itself enough to kill the Emperor? If they can, what happens then?

There's no way in hell they're pulling it off once they arrive in the galaxy. THeir resources are nigh exhausted by their voyage - they need to conquer and colonize and rebuild and grow. Nevermind they have to FIND Terra to start.

Can they destroy Terra and the Emperor? Possibly. If they throw millions of ships at it all at once they probably can overwhelm the defenses or destroy the planet. They have planet-destroying techniques but they aren't easily or rapidly deployable the way some SW methods would be, and the assault on TErra boiled off the oceans and demolished the crust as I recall.

We don't have absolutely solid data on Terra's defneses, but they are the most heavily defended world in teh galaxy. This means they have more than 400 billion soldiers (based on the forces in Dark Apostle) and a bare minimium of hundreds, probably thousands of military warships stationed there permanantly. This doesn't include the AdMech's forces on Mars (at least 3 titan legions, the Skitarri, the Explorator fleets), or the Inquisition (especially the Malleus/Gray Knights on Titan.) and various other major organs. We know Horus assaulted Terra in the Heresy Era with a huge portion of his fleet (Including a good 4-6 Legions as I recall), which means at least tens if not hundreds of thousands of warships - and the defenses in the post-Heresy era were made vastly stronger so it couldn't happen again.

If its attrition warfare it ultimatley comes down to the resources the Vong have/need to build their fleets, how many shipyards tey have, and how many ships/how fast they can build them. They SEEM to be on par with the NJO era NR, but as I've said that isn't really saying much since events were contrived to give the Vong an easy invasion for the first part of the series. We know in STar by Star they threw some 10,000 or so warships at Coruscant to take it (and the human fleets were comparable.. they might have been sitting at tens of thousands of available warship assets.) but that is conjecture and even if true its unlikely to be enough to take TErra.

[Connor MacLeod]

There are a few problems with that scenario (I know Connor has frequently pointed out the issue of hyperspace mapping an entirely new galaxy, for example), but other than that it's actually an interesting question.

Hyperspace speeds in this case won't be much of an issue, since any viable strategy for victory the Vong have will be a long term one. They're worn down from emigrating to a new galaxy (as I recall it was mentioned in the 'edge of victory' novels by Greg Keyes, IIRC) so they aren't in any shape for large scale, decisive engagements. They'll take territory, probably on the eastern fringe of the galaxy where they are beyond the Astronomican and it is hard for the Imperium to effectively engage them. That should give them plenty of opportunity for infiltration and recon.

Regardless though there is no magic bullet strategy to allow the Vong to sweep the whole 40K galaxy en masse in easy victory. They just become another faction in the mix. If anything, replacing the Tyranids eases things up quite a bit for the other 40K factions given that the 'Nids are one of the major looming threats in the current era of 40K.

[bilateralrope]

but if the nids are completely removed from the picture doesn't that also completely change the state of the galaxy at least in some places?

For one thing, I doubt the Tau would be around. The Damocles Crusade ended with a stalemate, but the only thing stopping the Imperium for coming back with more ships for round 2 was that they needed them to fight the nids. With no nids, there is nothing to stop the Imperium wiping the Tau out.