Empire VS any Solid Kardashev Scale level III civilizations

[SpaceMarine93]

The theoretical Kardashev Scale had been, for all its flaws, a useful tool in determining the technological level of alien civilizations in fiction. It determines how advanced a civilization really is depending on amount of energy it uses and how much it could harvest for its own needs. A Type I civilization is advanced enough to harvest and use all energy from a single planet; a Type II is able to harvest all energy from a star; a Type III could harvest and use that on an entire galaxy.

It had been argued by some science fiction fans that the Galactic Empire of Star Wars original series is a borderline Type II/Type III civilization - while the territory it controls spans over millions of star systems in the Galaxy, and has access to technologies that are far more advanced than many Type II civilizations such as highly efficient FTL drives, it does not control all energy from a single Galaxy. A single Imperial II class-Star Destroyer for example has an energy output at its peak at 9.28X10^24W, at a fraction or comparable to that of a small star (for reference, the Sun produces around 3.86X10^26W of energy per day)

Their height of energy usage, and therefore their pinnacle of their technological prowess, is found in the form of the Death Star, the First of which could fire a laser, according to http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Superlaser, at around 2.4×10^32W, which amounts to around several million Suns' worth of power. For comparison, the Milky Way Galaxy have around 300-400 billion stars and an estimated energy output of 4x10^37W. Remembering that a Type III civilization must be able to use all from a Galaxy. In other words, in terms of energy usage it is not Type III, but definitely more than Type II.

So here's a thought: pit the Galactic Empire against another civilization in science fiction who is an actual, Solid Type III civilization in power. Say the Forerunners, Caeliers from Star Trek Destiny, or even the Xeelee. These civilizations are capable of harvesting energy from a galaxy or a dozen of them, do mega-engineering on a stellar scale, build stars, and even manipulate space-time phenomena such as Black Holes, among other things that would make the quite advanced Galactic Empire look primitive in comparison.

Ignoring Clarke's third law, and balance besides, if say a small group from these Solid Type III civilizations decide to attack and destroy the Galactic Empire out of one reason or another, who would win? Would it be like the dragged out losing battle between moderately superior and moderately inferior foes Covenant War from Halo, or a complete epic curbstomp like Martian invasion of Great Britain in the War of the Worlds?

Pick any Type III invaders, and let's get on with a mighty battle to the end!

Bonus points if you can point out ways which the Galactic Empire might just win, regardless of the costs.

[Shadow6]

As far as I am aware (not having read the books), the Xeelee would wipe the floor with the Empire, given that they operate on a much larger scale than single galaxies (putting them well past type III) and possess time travel. The Forerunners were obviously able to build the Halos, but on the other hand they lost to the Flood. I don't know anything about the

To bring in another contender, The Culture share their galaxy with many other civilisations, some of which are actually more powerful than the Culture, hence they aren't strictly type III. However, they can at least match the output of the Death Star from their smallest class ships and are invulnerable to the Empire as long as they stay in infra/ultraspace (depending on how you setup the physics of the universe they meet in). On top of that they also have the Minds and effectors.

You also have to consider the Empire's comparatively fast FTL and their various superweapons such as the Suncrusher and Galaxy Gun.

[SpaceMarine93]

As far as I am aware (not having read the books), the Xeelee would wipe the floor with the Empire, given that they operate on a much larger scale than single galaxies (putting them well past type III) and possess time travel. The Forerunners were obviously able to build the Halos, but on the other hand they lost to the Flood. I don't know anything about the

About the what?

The Forerunners could build giant sentinel robots and ships that could had curbstomped both the Covenant and the UNSC combined. They have instantaneous FTL. A Forerunner ship possessed by the Prophet race single-handedly defeated the Elite force during the two races' brief conflict in the centuries before the Covenant was formed. A Halo can obliterate sentient races up to 25000 light years. Flood is an unstoppable and unconventional adversary, yes, but the Forerunners would had no trouble with the Empire.

[Shadow6]

About the what?

About the Caeliers. Accidentally chopped that somehow.

[SpaceMarine93]

About the what?

About the Caeliers. Accidentally chopped that somehow.

According the Star Trek Destiny novel series, at one point the Caeliers, or an offshoot of them, went to another galaxy at the distant past and enveloped every star with a dyson sphere, obscuring the galaxy from view. They could had easily used the technology involved to harvest the energy. This lands them right in the realm of Type III civilizations.

But its a bad choice for an opponent - they are pacifistic up to suicidal levels, if you read the Destiny book series.

[Prometheus Unbound]

As far as I am aware (not having read the books), the Xeelee would wipe the floor with the Empire, given that they operate on a much larger scale than single galaxies (putting them well past type III) and possess time travel.

The Xeelee can manipulate super clusters. They span(ed) the entire Universe in multiple dimensions and time frames.

If the Xeelee took a disliking to the Empire for whatever reason, they could annihilate them in the blink of an eye.

[NecronLord]

I figure the SW empire is somewhere around a type 2.1 or 2.2 on the kardashev scale......

Please show your working. Because the Death Star 1 has been scaled at 1e38J which is... close to a hundred billion times the output of Sol for one second. It can output this over a day, meaning that it is capable of generating 1.157e33W. This is some six or seven orders of magnitude greater than a mere Type 2. And that is one of their space-ships, albeit one of the biggest. They built another of these monstrosities that was even more powerful and hid it in the energy production budget.

For comparison, the Luminosity of Andromeda is 2.6×10^10 L☉, where 1 L☉is 3.839×10^26 W The total luminosity of Andromeda is therefore 9.9814 × 10^36 W. I've seen other estimates in the 1e37W range. - We can't definitively say they're type 3, but they're certainly getting there.

[NecronLord]

Say the Forerunners, Caeliers from Star Trek Destiny, or even the Xeelee.

The Xeelee are no Type III civilization. They fling galaxies around as projectiles. They are so far beyond type III that a type III can barely get their attention if it devotes its entire resources to that end. These Forerunners don't strike me as anything like a Type III from what I've seen. There have been debates about them in OSF before.

Also, Thread moved.

[Purple]

I thought the scale worked by taking all the energy output/usage of the country combined and not just a single ship. You don't have to have each of your starship output the power of an entire galaxy. Instead the entire power usage/supply of the empire has to match the entire power output of their galaxy. They could do it with a trillion trillions of small ships or a single giant black hole sized monster. Or that is at least how I always understood it. I could be wrong.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

As this has been got wrong- I believe deliberately- before, (embarrassingly the best link is to Wiki)- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale- couple of points.

The scale was designed as an astronomical, observational measure. We're looking at these people, what do we see? It's a hellishly blunt instrument, because it's built around and only around what an astronomer might see and an astrophysicist try to make sense of. It meaures very little other than energy use because of that. Detail is for astronauts, if/once they (or the alien astronauts) get that close.

Yes, it measures combined energy use, of which for the GFFA economy I reckon a very large proportion is space travel. Not, actually, transients. Bomb explosions and their peak power rate are here and gone in a literal flash, Sagan talks about this extensively, they don't count towards the number. Peak continuous output- peak observable output. The death star is significant not because it sets some kind of upper limit (although it does), but because it was easily affordable in the general budget.

Wild- ass guesswork follows. How many small freighters and transports are there out there, how much energy does it take to run the web of trade ships that holds the galaxy together?

Analogy- Britain. Sixty-seven million people or so, a shade over 152,000 registered freight vehicles of 7.5 tons or larger on the roads. One per five hundred people, roughly- I don't think cars are a good analogy for the stock light freighter, although maybe caravans and Transits...start with this. Somewhere from 6.68 to 1.14 million tons capacity. Everywhere's accessible within the day, loading time is a concern, activity cycle- any transport clerks out there able to give a definite opinion as to how long a modern freight lorry spends moving and how much time standing still?

For a world of a billion people, we're looking at sixty million tons freight capacity- splitting the difference- that for the purposes of making an estimate comes in hundred ton slices, that have to be paid for at a power consumption somewhere around 5E16- 1E17; 6E22 watts, 1.6 on the Kardashev scale, before you get to the industrial and domestic planetary activities those ships feed.

For the hundred quadrillion people estimate, some of whom will be more primitive, true, and some more advanced, a hundred million times that- E30, 2.46 on the Kardashev scale, and not counting passenger traffic, warcraft, stellar engineering (which must surely be the only thing there actually is to do with that kind of power being thrown around), shielding and environment manipulation, industry, politics, life in general.

Oh, there are a million holes that could be poked in this I'm sure, and I can think of a dozen of them straight of the bat, a least a few of which would be interesting to fill out.

[Ahriman238]

Something that has always puzzled me. Why does the Death Star inevitably come up in any debate involving the Empire? The original, even allowing for EU material, was complete and operational for what, a week or two? And fired exactly twice, once in testing and once in anger.

The DSII was destroyed before it could be finished. It never displayed either mobility or the ability to destroy a planet. Certainly, those things would have to be part of the finished product, but it was still under construction. For that matter, the work crews seem to have just about killed themselves getting it operational enough for the Emperors plans, which suggests to me that less time-critical systems were put on hold. The DSII did blow up several capital ships, but surely no one can think it at all similar to destroy 500 meter spacecraft and an entire world?

Okay, you could argue that the Death Stars represent some of the Empire's impressive engineering and industrial output. I can buy that. What I do not understand is the repeated refrence to the DSII being built with the resources of a single private company. I presume this refers to Shadows of the Empire and the dialogue there about Prince Xixor smuggling materials and parts to the secret project, but for the life of me I cannot recall anywhere they said or even implied that Xixor was the only man doing so.

[Simon_Jester]

Something that has always puzzled me. Why does the Death Star inevitably come up in any debate involving the Empire? The original, even allowing for EU material, was complete and operational for what, a week or two? And fired exactly twice, once in testing and once in anger.

The DSII was destroyed before it could be finished. It never displayed either mobility or the ability to destroy a planet. Certainly, those things would have to be part of the finished product, but it was still under construction. For that matter, the work crews seem to have just about killed themselves getting it operational enough for the Emperors plans, which suggests to me that less time-critical systems were put on hold. The DSII did blow up several capital ships, but surely no one can think it at all similar to destroy 500 meter spacecraft and an entire world?

Death Stars are iconic. Everyone thinks of them when they think about the Empire in Star Wars, including random non-fans who've seen the movies and couldn't care less about versus debates.

And the raw firepower they have makes them such a high-end benchmark that, for people trying to demonstrate the high levels of power thrown around in Star Wars, they're the perfect illustration of the point.

So everyone always brings them up.

[Eternal_Freedom]

To be picky, the DS1 fired five times: Once at the Fortressa, three times at Despayre and once at Alderaan, although the first shot was only 4% power and the shots at Despyre were something like 1/3rd power, it took three shots before the planet was destroyed.

[NecronLord]

Correction: 1.0 x 19^37

It amazes me how so many of you talk about science, but can't do a basic high school calculation

It amazes me too.

19^37 is probably not what you meant to type there, that is 2*1047W: many oodles more than the luminosity of any galaxy, or even any quasar.

What's hilarious is that you're nitpicking the difference between 9.98e36 and 1e37, a minor difference (I'll grant you its technically improper use of significant figures, so sue me, I was in a hurry) when you're producing totally off the wall shit like that. I of course, presume you hit the wrong key on your keyboard there, but if you're going to throw stones...


As for the power of the Death Star, it's been C-canon (unlike your notions of 'huge twenty year hypermatter reserve') for well over a decade that it takes a day to generate enough energy to fire a shot. As for where the second death star beyond more powerful is from, G-Canon, opening crawl, it is described as 'more powerful.' The titbit about the second death star being hidden in the accounting of Imperial Energy Systems, was from some old WEG adventure journal, you may of course take it with a pinch of salt, but it's still canonical.

[NecronLord]

The DSII was destroyed before it could be finished. It never displayed either mobility or the ability to destroy a planet. Certainly, those things would have to be part of the finished product, but it was still under construction. For that matter, the work crews seem to have just about killed themselves getting it operational enough for the Emperors plans, which suggests to me that less time-critical systems were put on hold. The DSII did blow up several capital ships, but surely no one can think it at all similar to destroy 500 meter spacecraft and an entire world?

It is declared by the Emperor to be 'fully armed and operational.' That means.... fully armed. And operational. It is also in the novel preparing to fire on Endor on the Emperor's orders after the shield is dropped. It had the capacity, and consequently the power generation capability, this is canonical.

Okay, you could argue that the Death Stars represent some of the Empire's impressive engineering and industrial output. I can buy that. What I do not understand is the repeated refrence to the DSII being built with the resources of a single private company. I presume this refers to Shadows of the Empire and the dialogue there about Prince Xixor smuggling materials and parts to the secret project, but for the life of me I cannot recall anywhere they said or even implied that Xixor was the only man doing so.

It's out there somewhere. But XTS is one of the single largest shipping concerns in the galaxy. The remark I used rather is that the project was hidden in the Galactic Empire's energy production budget for refugees, which is more obscure still, and is actually quite questionable (it may just be Jerjerrod himself that is covered by that).

[NecronLord]

In fact, normally I try not to come back to the same post twice, but I think this deserves it.

First, the big error here: the Kardashev scale is about average power usage, not an extraordinary peak.

The only thing left is the DS1, which is a one-off outlier; they must have used secret hypermatter reserves, probably built up over at least the 20 years the thing was under construction, to fuel it.

Even IF we accept that you can just make this kind of thing up and we take it as gospel Destructionator, we are talking about energy usage. Energy in the form of work done, in blowing up Alderann. Work done is energy used. So let's divide 1e38J by twenty years (IE, 1038 over 630,720,000 seconds) I still make that 1.5*1029.

And you mention that this might be one hundredth of military hyperjumps in your world? That's 1.5e31W consumed in military hyperjumps when they're not saving for the Destructionator Death Star. And that they might have power for ten shots? 1.5e32W.

The above is of course, entirely hypothetical, because it's up there with saying they built the Death Star using an unknown Sharu Power Source and therefore doesn't reflect on the Galactic Empire's ability. Sure, if we toss the canon out and presume that's so, then it changes the game. But it's not true, and that's that. Similarly, your thing about them saving up a big stockpile of hypermatter is just something you made up.

Of course your conjecture is not valid, it's fanfic, and no more valid than the fanfic I might happen to wank up about how the Galactic Republic produces enough energy out of geothermal energy(!) on Sarapin to power a hundred Death Stars.


This kind of thing is why the Death Star is the elephant in the room with regard to Imperial energy production capacity; you can backflip around it every which way and still produce impressive figures.

[lordofchange13]

But, you dismiss the idea of stockpiled fuel, without talking about the canon evidence that went into it... from everything we know, the Death Star is way way way beyond anything else they have, both military and civilian. Consuming stored fuel actually explains a lot of things, including statements the main site prefers to simply ignore, and is a simple, logical thing to do.

Not to get in the middle of your fight, but the fact that the Death Star is better then most if not all other empire machinery is irrelevant to Empires placement on the scale.

[lordofchange13]

So the Xeelee aren't alone up there on Olympus: the humans from "The Dancers at the End of Time" collection. they are all god like reality warping Green lanterny people.

[SpaceMarine93]

So if a standard Type III civilization do invade, does the Galactic Empire have any actual chances of survival?

[lordofchange13]

You need more info then were they are on the scale to say for sure,power generation doesn't always equal combat ability.

[SpaceMarine93]

You need more info then were they are on the scale to say for sure,power generation doesn't always equal combat ability.

Emm... Is there any actual Type III civilizations in fiction I can reference?

[lordofchange13]

You need more info then were they are on the scale to say for sure,power generation doesn't always equal combat ability.

Emm... Is there any actual Type III civilizations in fiction I can reference?

Xenosaga and Lensmen universe come to mind, not a 100% of if they could kill the Empire.

This has a lot more examples then the Wikipedia article.

[SpaceMarine93]

You need more info then were they are on the scale to say for sure,power generation doesn't always equal combat ability.

Emm... Is there any actual Type III civilizations in fiction I can reference?

Xenosaga and Lensmen universe come to mind, not a 100% of if they could kill the Empire.

This has a lot more examples then the Wikipedia article.

I thought you guys won't like putting Lensmen into this discussion... But if you guys do, let's just pit Lensmen's Civilization against Star Wars' Galactic Empire, who will win?

[lordofchange13]

I thought you guys won't like putting Lensmen into this discussion... But if you guys do, let's just pit Lensmen's Civilization against Star Wars' Galactic Empire, who will win?

I personally don't like using them that much, but you asked for a level 3 civilization. Later day Lensmen wins hands down.

[Ford Prefect]

Xenosaga

Is extremely powerful when it wants to be, but I don't think it really counts as a Type III civilisation.