Saving the the Imperium of Man

[bilateralrope]

What kind of attendant assets are you talking about ?

Because, as powerful as the Astartes are, there are still only 5,000 of them. And each one can only be in one place at a time.

So unless these attendant assets include a large number of other infantry, I just can't see how they could conquer a planet. Let alone hold it when Astartes move onto the next one.

This isn't true. Dark Apostle shows that a CSM host of 2000 conquering Tanakreg. Now I'm sure you can nitpick the definition of 'conquer', but the Word Bearers there decapitated the planet's leadership and military, then held onto the capital while wiping out all the resistance (and obtaining the remaining infrastructure) that mattered to them. They maintained the planet for months even against an abnormally powerful Imperial relief force (with Elysians and serious Ad-Mech presence, including an Ordinatus)

The same source shows their weakness, as they can't particularly hold ground against a numerous foe due to the lack of numbers. They were also focused on just a small area of the planet. So you're right, they can't hold the planet.

But conquer? Oh yeah.

Ok, I'll concede that 5,000 is enough to conquer the planet. Even hold it if it has the important locations sufficiently centralized. But I was replying to this post:

Think about it. 5000 Astartes and their attendant assets could conquer and subdue OUR world in less than a month. Maybe in a week. With possibly no more than 50 losses. Then within hours or days, they are conquering another world.

But as soon as those Astartes leave to attack the next world, they are no longer left to hold the planet.

An insurgency? In WH30k or WH40k? Are you fucking retarded?

What is so special about 40K that means an insurgency won't occur (especially one after the Astartes leave) ?
Though it doesn't even need to be a full blown insurgency. Take this scenario:
- Astartes land, start killing resistance.
- Everyone quickly realizes that they are outmatched and surrenders.
- Astartes leave to hit the next world.
- Imperium makes a demand of the 'conquered' Earth. It gets politely refused.

What response would your plan allow ?

The Imperiums response would be to use the Guard, Arbites, or whatever other force they stationed on that world to give a quick and probably brutal response. But with your 5,000 Astartes the only response you have is to call them back from whatever world they are conquering to hit Earth again. Get a few worlds doing this and your Astartes are quickly bogged down because they don't have the warm bodies to hold territory.

[Lord Revan]

isn't the bulk of the operations IG and SM deal with insurgencies of various types and sizes?

with Xenos attacks and dark crusades being something most imperials don't encounter within their lifetime.

hell aren't most chaos "operations" cult fueled insurgengies rather then invasions?

[Connor MacLeod]

I kind of question whether Tanakreg was a valid example. They had inside help for one thing from cultists already on planet, to an unknown degree. Moreover it wasn't all that large a planet to begin with (population in the millions, PDF in the tens of thousands) and the Word Bearers had complete orbital superiority to begin with, which is the massive advantage.

Moreover, whether or not thousands of Space Marines can 'conquer' the modern world is not a very precise question. How does one define conquer? If you're just saying 'kicking the ass of anyone they run across' then there's a good chance they can depending on how they're equipped (see below). If you actually mean 'occupy the planet' then they'll fail no matter how awesome you assume a Space Marine is, because there simply aren't enough of them. Despite all the propoganda BS about how Space Marines conquer whole planets or systems with companies or squads or whatever the fuck the hyperbole says, they can't do it physically (they can psychologically, at least in some cases. Terror and intimidation, or awe, can be effective weapons.)

It also depends on hwo the Space Marines are equipped. Simply sending in 5000 Astartes without vehicle or orbital support is begging for a slaughter: they lack mobility and there are are all kinds of heavy weapons that can penetrate Marine armour. Again even assuming SUPARAWESOME Marines there is no way in hell one is going to stand up to a battle tank main gun no matter how Emperor dedicated he is. Nevermind some anti tank rockets or grenades.

If you give them tanks and thunderhawks then things get a bit better. They have some mobility and (likely) individual superiority, but again this won't guarantee victory. Earth has billions of people and countless millions of troops combined, and they're all very well equipped. Hell the air forces alone are going to represent a huge offensive/defensive asset and a problem for the Marines so that sort of support does not guarantee victory.

If they have at least one starship? They can probably kick any military's ass given enough time and planning, and if the supplies hold out. They have total orbital superioirity. They can destroy satellites and other important bits of technology to waging modern warfare via starship weapons. They can deploy from orbit when and where they choose. They have orbital surveillance. And they have a nigh-unassailable base to operate from. But they still can't occupy the damn planet.

[Lord Revan]

didn't the orginal argument give the space marines less 1% casuality rate too?

[Zinegata]

With the exception of the Gaunt series and a handful of others (i.e. Lyon's Fifteen Hours) most IG novels are honestly just not that good.

Um, Cain, anyone? I'll take that over 'Give them Chaos Space Marine Commies Straight Silver!' bayonet porn any day.

I think we tend to lump Cain under his own genre rather than the IG. He gets his own Omnibuses seperate from stuff like Gunheads.

Lol, everyone is better than Lorgar.

Why?

I didn't read his book, but going by his Legion, his organizational skills were second only to Guilman, and had his dad

Because his skills were overshadowed by his atrocious emotional issues. I mean, Konrad was emo, but his fuck ups didn't become public spectacles the same way Lorgar's did.

Guilliman in KNF even goes as far as to say that Lorgar would be a disgrace and embarassment if he weren't a Primarch (and this is BEFORE the treachery begins.), and I'd have to agree. Horus may have some emotional dependency issues leading to his fall to Chaos, but Lorgar is completely ruled by his issues to the point that he worships his dad as a God, and then turns to really fucked up Gods when his dad tells him that he's being stupid and he should, I dunno, grow up and be an adult.

Plus, for a Primarch he's generally completely and utterly overshadowed by his "lackey" Erbrus.

Admittedly though, I haven't read First Heretic yet. But even my friends who've read it tend to be even LESS impressed with Lorgar.

[Zinegata]

It also depends on hwo the Space Marines are equipped. Simply sending in 5000 Astartes without vehicle or orbital support is begging for a slaughter: they lack mobility and there are are all kinds of heavy weapons that can penetrate Marine armour. Again even assuming SUPARAWESOME Marines there is no way in hell one is going to stand up to a battle tank main gun no matter how Emperor dedicated he is. Nevermind some anti tank rockets or grenades.

It's worth noting that the 30K Marine Legions have considerably more armor support than the present day, with KNF showing the Ultramarines fighting with Shadowsword and Baneblade tanks in addition to Land Raiders.

Though Black Admiral does have a point it's not gonna apply to all Legions; as not all of them are open warfare types. The Alpha Legion for instance doesn't even let its presence be known to its allies sometimes; they certainly took their time in Legion.

[Black Admiral]

Plus, for a Primarch he's generally completely and utterly overshadowed by his "lackey" Erbrus.

Admittedly though, I haven't read First Heretic yet. But even my friends who've read it tend to be even LESS impressed with Lorgar.

Well, I don't know if your reading of First Heretic would be the same as mine, but it didn't leave me charitably disposed towards Lorgar, who comes off as an enormous wanker & unlikeable asshat, and, to boot, is to blame for not just the Heresy but the scattering of the Primarchs as well. On the plus side, he does get beaten up, proving he's pretty much the most pathetic of the Primarchs (damn Curze for interfering before the Lord of Ravens could kill Lorgar! Damn his hide!).

[wautd]

Regarding Space Marines vs modern day soldiers, I'd recommend the "Call of the Lion" short story in Horus Heresy-Tales of Heresy where a handful of Dark Angels kicks the living shit out of a large modern day force attacking them. IIRC, the casualty rate may have been higher than 1%, but then again they were supplied to make First Contact instead of a full scale war.

[the atom]

Might I ask what all this 'holding the planet' business is all about? From everything I've read it's not how they operate at all. In fact holding the planet is pretty much always a job for the Imperial Guard. The job of space marines is to take critical objectives and crack well defended hardpoints, before handing off the job of actually holding the planet to the incoming guard.

[Lord Revan]

Might I ask what all this 'holding the planet' business is all about? From everything I've read it's not how they operate at all. In fact holding the planet is pretty much always a job for the Imperial Guard. The job of space marines is to take critical objectives and crack well defended hardpoints, before handing off the job of actually holding the planet to the incoming guard.

that's kind of the point we've been trying to make.

the talk about holding is because the orginal argument was that a force 5000 space marines (note that there's no talk of attending guard units there just marines) could conquer Earth (2012 Earth that is not Holy Terra) in less then 2 weeks. Even Adepta Soritas force with same numbers could "take" Earth in that amount of time by pinpoint strikes to critical targets like command bases and such and the sister of battle are in the end normal humans.

however taking an objective means nothing if you cannot hold it and the orginal argument was clear that it meant space marines by themselves, not space marines with guard support. Once the initial shock of the space marine assault fades you're faced with the fact mere memory of that attack isn't gonna replace the guard units that actually do the final mopping up and holding of the planets.

[Block]

I don't think the Sororitas could take Earth with numbers like that. One of the reasons the Space Marines are special is the Op tempo they keep. They simply don't need rest, so they can be almost everywhere at once. The Sororitas have to sleep or they degrade, they can't live in their armor, not like the Astartes.

[Lord Revan]

I don't think the Sororitas could take Earth with numbers like that. One of the reasons the Space Marines are special is the Op tempo they keep. They simply don't need rest, so they can be almost everywhere at once. The Sororitas have to sleep or they degrade, they can't live in their armor, not like the Astartes.

well an operation like that would rely more on the shock effect of the strikes then going about and shooting everyone with a gun. hell even the guard could do it with a half way intelligent commander.

but that wasn't really my point, my point was that it doesn't matter if you can "take" something if you don't have man power to hold it.

only time I can think of an astrades chapter trying to conquer more then 1 planet without guard support was the Blood Ravens at Karuva (or how ever it was spelled) and it was major disaster to the point that the chapter was nearly destroyed by it (major casualities in the 5 companies involved).