IA 8 Raid on Kastorel-Novem discussion

[PainRack]

I'm no Connor Macleod, but I have been rereading IA 8 recently and sorting out its tactics.

After several rereads, I wish to present a non incompetent version of what evolved in IA 8 .


What was the strategic goals and scope of the operation?
From the introduction

a raid into Ork-controlled space to try to stem the growth of a Waagh!

Chapter 1

Captain Thanstadt and his Guardsmen of the 181st Elysian Drop Regiment, supported by Space Marines of the Legio Astartes Raven Guard were about to interrupt Garaghak's momentum by launching a high-speed surgical raid upon Kastorel-Novem.

The mission strategic impact was to stop or slow down the growth of an Ork Waagh.

However, the Imperium had already made a fatal flawed assessment.
Chapter 1

Warlord Garaghak's attacks had not officially become a full Waaagh!-yet, but alarmingly the momentum was obviously building behind it.

Chapter 7

It took the fall of Forsarr and then magdelene IX before the Administratum finally recognised Garaghak's attacks as a full Waagh!, when arguably it had been exactly that since his victory in the Tallarax war. The wheels of the Imperium's bureaucracy had been characteristically slow to react.

The misidentification of Garaghak and the Ork war/migratory status and the implications in numbers. This would roll over into the issues of target selection and the raid objectives, however, its main impact would be on the raider forces.

Chapter 7

The major mistake had been the under-estimating of Ork strength. The raiders had simply not had the manpower to deal with the massive number of Orks present on Kastorel-Novem.

So, why wasn't more manpower deployed to assault Kastorel?

From the timeline

935979.M41 Departmento Munitorum officials order more Imperial Guard regiments to defend Forsarr hive world. Their logis predictions make Forsarr the next target for Garaghak's conquests.

705988.M41 Garaghak launches his long expected invasion of Forsarr. Millions of orks rampage across the hive world in a war which will eventually last eight years.

541992.M41 Raid on Kastorel-Novem...

Chapter 1

The brave sacrifices on Tallarax and Kastorel-Novem had bought the Imperium some time to bolster the next line of defences. As yet the Imperium had not mustered an army capable of delivering an effective counter-attack or retaking any of the lost planets but the Departmento Munitorum had searched its local strategic reserves for Imperial Guard regiments to deploy onto Forsarr itself.

Forsarr was the main pirority for reinforcements, being the centre of Imperium power in the sector and has been engaged in 4 years of war.

While this is left unsaid, I suspect that this not only limited the troops available, it also limited the type available.

The Departmento Munitorum had rated its combat readiness as optimum when it received its orders for transportation to the Forsarr war zone. It was that optimum rating that had seen it selected for the Kastorel-Novem mission, at the Raven Guards' request.

The war on Forsarr might had chewed up a more powerful or veteran regiment. Alternative choices, such as using an armoured regiment to assault to the site might had not been available.
Additional Guard regiments might had protected certain weaknesses from being exploited by the Orks. An armour or artillery regiment to defend the landing zone, or additional Rough Riders/armoured infantry to defend their flank/speed up the assault might had changed the scenario.

The Raven Guards were the originators of the raid. What were their strategic goals?

its other captains could then plan and execute a series of their trademark lightning attacks. These would be targeted to strike at the Orks' weak points. The Raven Guard wanted to minimise the risk of facing the Ork hordes in open battle.That task they would leave to the Imperial Guard regiments which were digging in to defend Forsarr. The time might come for open battle, but first they would raid deep into Ork territory.By stealth and infiltration, and then with a series of swift powerful strikes, they would systematically target and destroy key Ork bases and leaders.

Here was an opportunity for the Raven Guard to attack Garaghak's horde without confronting the strength of his warbands. If they could disrupt his weapons manufacturing facilities, the knock-on effect would slow or stall the invasion of Forsarr and buy more time to deploy fresh Imperial Guard troops and stabilise the crumbling defences. On Kastorel-Novem the Raven Guard could also target the Ork leadership.

The Raven strategic doctrine was to act as special forces and use assymetric warfare against the Orks. Nothing wrong with this strategy so far. The goal on Kastorel-Novem was to disrupt manufacturing/supplies with another primary target of eliminating the Mek boss.

We see the first mistake emerge here. Both goals were deemed as equally important in the planning, which leads to mission creep. The Raven Guard could not mobilise a large enough force to actually attack alone. Instead,

two strike forces were quickly assembled. The first would be dispatched to Forsarr to help on the front line against the tide of greenskins now sweeping from hive city to hive city.

In return for the pledge of Shrike's aid, the Raven Guard also requested and received assistance.

The Ravens were forced to deploy two seperate strike forces instead of one large SM force. A possibility could be politics. There were multiple requests for aid pouring in, and the Chapter deemed it appropiate to deploy a strike force to Forsarr. To compensate for insufficient numbers, possibly influenced by the poor strategic assessment of the Waaagh!, the Ravens tacked on a larger IG regiment.

The objectives were split up, the marines would eliminate the leadership, the Guard would eliminate the manufacturing facillities.

The plans however, revealed a more... sneaky aspect of Marines tactics, practicality and brutality.

In the general confusion of the fighting and with the Orks already fully distracted by the Elysians, the Raven Guard would be able to overwhelm the Ork commander's bodyguards and kill him

The Elysians were a diversion, to deliberately draw forces away from the Mek Boss so that the Marines could first locate, and then kill him. This was echoed even in the fuel dump mission.

once the battle was in full swing, a small orbital insertion force would be dropped from the Aeruginosus. The timing would prevent the Orks being able to react to the attack and give the smaller force time to defeat the guards and set demolition charges.

Based on these operational details, the Raven strategic planning becomes more clear. Shrike would answer the incessant plea for aid from the IG on a critical front. This gave the Ravens a diversion Guard force to attack an important target, avoiding the risk of losing more precious Space Marines in a pinning attack. A famous hero would also answer the PR battle,making this a win-win-win situation on all fronts......if the raid was successful.

This strategic consideration would answer the operational as well as tactical decisions the Marines make later in the field.


The last strategic factor was time. Intel from the planet was obtained after the invasion of Forsarr had occurred. Circumstances(presumably the potential discovery of Raven scouts or changing tactical situation) drove the Guard to take only 3 days to mobilise and deploy a regiment assigned to Forsarr and the Marines rendevous point. Given the complexities of the operational plan the Elysians came up with, this would prevent them from training or doing anything apart from the most cursory planning for the raid.

[Ahriman238]

Nothin new on the Ravens trying a decapitation strike, their background is as guerillas so their doctrine is built around hiding in the shadows, hit and fade strikes wherever the enemy is weak, whether that means a supply chain or leadership.

Hitting da Boss is usually a good plan against orks, they tend to fracture while fighting over who gets to be in charge now, and even if the army keeps intact it can be weeks before they're able to engage external enemies.

SImilarly, it's just like the Munitorum to begin every major operation with the worst intel since Custer.

[Black Admiral]

Oh, the Raven Guard do not come out of this one looking good. Even leaving aside the insane troll logic espoused by Shadow-Captain Retard Korvydae (who also repeatedly and cravenly abrogates his command responsibilities) in refusing to obliterate Buzzgob's army with an orbital strike when there's absolutely nothing preventing this, his pre-assault reconnaissance is hardly the stuff of Chapter legend (since it's focussed on completely the wrong location to actually find their target, and Korvydae should know this, considering the Raven Guard's experience with fighting Orks).

[PainRack]

Oh, the Raven Guard do not come out of this one looking good. Even leaving aside the insane troll logic espoused by Shadow-Captain Retard Korvydae (who also repeatedly and cravenly abrogates his command responsibilities) in refusing to obliterate Buzzgob's army with an orbital strike when there's absolutely nothing preventing this, his pre-assault reconnaissance is hardly the stuff of Chapter legend (since it's focussed on completely the wrong location to actually find their target, and Korvydae should know this, considering the Raven Guard's experience with fighting Orks).

Korvydae did make multiple mistakes and they should know better. But I'm trying to retcon the thing beyond WTF were they thinking.
I won't say that no orbital bombardment was executed. We only saw one tactical execution of orbital fire in close support, but there is nothing to suggest that fires weren't conducted on other targets.
As for recon, the problem isn't that they were focused on the wrong locations. We know that scouts were operating in the IG zone of operations and near the Gargant, where the Mekboss was. The real issue is, why didn't the Ravens discover the true extent of the Ork numbers?

To be honest, a LOT of the problems disappear if you simply assume that the Ravens DID know the extent of the Ork numbers and they SCREWED the Guard regiment so that they had a chance to take out the Mekboss. Think about it. Its canon lore that Space Marines don't work well with other Imperial forces because of their superhuman status, setting them tasks that Guardsmen can't complete. This is a perfect example. The Guardsmen deployment makes no sense otherwise. The RG expecting the Guardsmen to be Space Marines lite to execute their portion of the mission so that the RG dicks could seize the glory of taking out the Mekboss personally...... that's shift its back into the themes of Wh40k nicely without sheer, utter idiocy. Because seriously, the tactics make no sense WHATSOEVER unless you assume that the primary goal was to take out the Mekboss, and that the Gargant was nothing more than a secondary target aimed to do this.

So, to continue.

Operational planning.
Operations translate strategic goals and intent into execution.
The strategic intent was to delay the momentum of the Ork Waaagh!. The goals chosen from this intent was to kill a Mekboss and destroy manufacturing facillities that would support the main theatre on Forsarr.
To support the goals, several targets were chosen.
1. The Ork Mekboss
2. The Gargant and the construction site.
3. A fuel depot.

Nothing much to comment about the targets. We know that the Gargant was defended by anti-aircraft guns,

He also noted amongst the building sized piles of scrap were the tell-tale barrels of anti-aircraft weaponery. The Gargant construction site was ringed with them, and more would be hidden from view.

The guns were ineffective in preventing the Guardsmen from calling in aerial support. I won't address.
The fuel depot was defended with a few orks/gretchin who fled.
The Mekboss was protected and had to be located.



Was there other means of destroying the targets?

1. Airstrike. After the failure of Xhyst raid, an air attack using Marauder bombers was used, inflicting superficial damage.

2. Orbital strike.

3. Covert demolition.

A covert assasination of the Mekboss might also had been considered.


A covert assault might had been too risky, threatening the Raven strike force, especially during extraction.

The first two tactics would not have sufficed to drive the Mekboss out of cover and provided no verifiable corpse.

After the battle had erupted,we do know that the Guard did attempt an airstrike, but they were unable to devote enough firepower and sorties to destroy the Gargant.

The last question is orbital fire...
For this, we could only point to this.

The only other aid he could call upon was from the strike cruiser. The Aeruginosus could begin with an orbital bombardment of known Ork concentrations, lending some much needed heavy firepower to the drop troop's withdrawal.

Korvyadae by this point was probably suffering from mission creep and the Imperium reluctance to use orbital gunfire in tactical support. A sustained fire mission to destroy the Gargant might had consumed too many fires that it could had dedicated to other targets, and Korvydae and the Marines focused on suppressing Ork responses to their incursion, to the extent that he abandoned his strategic goal accidently.



The Imperium operational plan was this.

1.The Marauders mission would be to try to interdict the battlezone areaa and hit the Ork's manufacturing facillities.

So, Marauders had two operational roles. To bomb factories, and also help shape the Elysian battlefield. Thunderbolts would be responsible for providing close air support in the shaping, otherwise, their role would be to defend and sweep the skies clear of enemy Ork aircraft.


2. The Elysians would use a hammer and anvil assault, overruning the Gargant construction site so that they hit the anvil.
In military parlance, Shield force was a blocking force, Sword was assigned to sweep the area and assault the Gargant objective, while Dagger provided flank security via mobile patrols.

This tactic makes NO SENSE for a raid. A perimeter security might be needed, since the Guard would had needed time to demolish the Gargant, but if so, Sword force should had been the stronger force as they moved in to overrun the target.


The only way it makes sense is in the Raven Guard overall larger plan.

The Chapter had pre-planned the attack in detail and designated the Elysian Drop Troopers their mission objectives.
The Raven Guard's own forces also had their objectives.Before offensive operations could begin they would be sending seven Scout teams back onto Kastorel-Novem. These would already be operating in secret when the main attack began. Once the Orks had been stirred into action by the Elysian landings, the Raven Guard would be airborne in Thunderhawks and their strike cruiser would be racing into position to deploy their drop-pod squads.

During the raid the Raven Guard's mission was to identify and eliminate the Ork Warlord's chief technical specialist. Their Scouts would be seeking him out. Once located, the Raven Guard's main strike force would land en-masse and attack. In the general confusion of the fighting and with the Orks already fully distracted by the Elysians, the Raven Guard would be able to overwhelm the Ork commander's bodyguards and kill him thus inflicting an irreplaceable dent in Garaghak's ambitions.

So,in reply to Black Admiral, the Space Marines did focus on the area around the Gargant. Shield force was aware of Space Marine scouts operating in their area. In the overall plan, this means that Sword would destroy the Gargant and flush out the Mekboss, leaving him exposed in the open to the Raven Guard, who would then sweep in and kill him. Shield force would block the Orks escape route, preventing Buzzgob from fleeing.

For those questioning the ability of the Guardsmen to achieve this, well, Space Marines don't work well with Guardsmen, as they routinely overestimate their abilities or view them with disdain.

[Alkaloid]

That's true of a lot of marines, but if I recall the Raven Guard don't typically have this problem because they tend to split up into smaller detachments and thus spend more time working with other Imperial forces than most. There are certainly marines who would overestimate or screw over the Guard for a chance at a fancy kill, but the RG aren't one of them.

[lPeregrine]

Unfortunately, there's just no way to salvage this book at anything but an example of stunning incompetence. Besides the whole question of "why not just blow it up from orbit and assume the mek is dead", I think the best example is the attack on the fuel tanks. The Raven Guard send in a drop pod attack to run over and plant melta bombs on the tanks, apparently for the sole purpose of providing a tabletop scenario to play. In-universe it just makes no sense at all, if you know where the target is with enough precision to deliver a drop pod strike, why not just send in a drop pod packed full of explosives? Or a Marauder strike?

Unfortunately the whole book is just full of stuff like that, and it makes the supposed "masters of stealth and infiltration" look like complete idiots.

[PainRack]

For the same reason why Obama refused to bomb Abbottabad .
They needed to verify his location, existence, and subsequently, his corpse.


Also, just what was so bad about the fuel dump attack? Its not unusual in universe, neither is it senseless out of it to use infantry to raid and destroy it.

As for Marauder strikes, the book states that the Marauders were tasked with attacking manufacturing facillities. There just wasn't enough sorties. You might as well claim that the British were incompetent because they sent in the SAS to destroy the Afrika Korp aircraft.


As for the Raven Guards working well with Guard..... this is an attempt to retcon the material. Some things just have to.... go in order for it to fit. I say again, the tactics used in the raid by the IG doesn't make sense as a raiding force. It only make sense if they were expended as a diversionary force, and one used to flush out Buzzgob.

[lPeregrine]

For the same reason why Obama refused to bomb Abbottabad .
They needed to verify his location, existence, and subsequently, his corpse.

Except the Imperium:

1) Doesn't care about collateral damage. It's a planet full of orks, just bomb the whole area flat and you can be pretty sure you got him (and even if you didn't, you blew up everything he was building, so a single mek isn't a very big deal). There's no reason to worry about how much other stuff you destroy in the process. In fact, collateral damage would be a bonus here.

2) Doesn't need a propaganda victory. They don't need to be 100% sure they got their target so they can brag about it to the civilians without the risk of having him show up alive later. The civilian population is never even going to hear about the battle (or even the target), so it's perfectly acceptable to just say "well, we're pretty sure his corpse is in the crater somewhere".

The only reason to do anything other than an orbital strike on the whole area is because you need to publish tabletop scenarios and sell infantry models.

Also, just what was so bad about the fuel dump attack? Its not unusual in universe, neither is it senseless out of it to use infantry to raid and destroy it.

Because you have infantry landing right next to it to plant the bombs. If you just fill the drop pods with explosives, you blow it up without ever risking your troops. The only reason to ever send infantry is so that you can have a tabletop scenario to play, instead of an efficient and one-sided victory.

As for Marauder strikes, the book states that the Marauders were tasked with attacking manufacturing facillities. There just wasn't enough sorties. You might as well claim that the British were incompetent because they sent in the SAS to destroy the Afrika Korp aircraft.

The lack of air support is a HUGE problem. The entire battle plan depends on having air support available at all times, so why the hell would you try to go after more targets than you have the aircraft to attack properly? This is especially true when we're talking about something that is a secondary objective at best.

[PainRack]

Except the Imperium:

1) Doesn't care about collateral damage. It's a planet full of orks, just bomb the whole area flat and you can be pretty sure you got him (and even if you didn't, you blew up everything he was building, so a single mek isn't a very big deal). There's no reason to worry about how much other stuff you destroy in the process. In fact, collateral damage would be a bonus here.

Except when they do. The inconsistency between Imperium orbital bombardment, collateral damage and reluctance to use WMD is not new.

I shown that the entire tactics of the raid was designed to get Buzzgob. The strategic goals is to delay the momentum of the Waaagh!, and they determined that eliminating Buzzgob would do so.

2) Doesn't need a propaganda victory. They don't need to be 100% sure they got their target so they can brag about it to the civilians without the risk of having him show up alive later. The civilian population is never even going to hear about the battle (or even the target), so it's perfectly acceptable to just say "well, we're pretty sure his corpse is in the crater somewhere".

Except for their own strategic calculations and the fact that they can't confirm the location of Buzzgob.

Because you have infantry landing right next to it to plant the bombs. If you just fill the drop pods with explosives, you blow it up without ever risking your troops. The only reason to ever send infantry is so that you can have a tabletop scenario to play, instead of an efficient and one-sided victory.

Since when was drop pod assault so precise?

The lack of air support is a HUGE problem. The entire battle plan depends on having air support available at all times, so why the hell would you try to go after more targets than you have the aircraft to attack properly? This is especially true when we're talking about something that is a secondary objective at best.

That's your assumption. The Marauders were tasked with attacking other industrial targets, the Raven Guard simply assumed the task of eliminating this one. Its even explictly mentioned that the Marauders was unsuitable for CAS, and instead, focused on interdiction missions and attacking other manufacturing facillities. There was simply no mention of how effective/ineffective the Marauders were at doing so.

[lPeregrine]

Except when they do. The inconsistency between Imperium orbital bombardment, collateral damage and reluctance to use WMD is not new.

We're not talking about nuke-level WMDs here, just the equivalent of a drop pod full of explosives. It would probably rearrange some of the surrounding scrap pile along with blowing up the fuel tanks, but turning scrap into more scrap is hardly the kind of environment-destroying collateral damage that would make a (sane) commander reluctant to order the attack.

Except for their own strategic calculations and the fact that they can't confirm the location of Buzzgob.

So what? If he's in the area, he's dead. If he isn't in the area, the attack was doomed to failure from the beginning. Showing the corpse adds nothing to the plan.

Since when was drop pod assault so precise?

The drop pods arrive, and in the next sentence the chaplain leading the attack orders the squads to begin setting the melta charges. If they're close enough for that to be a sensible order (instead of "fight your way to the tanks a mile north of here"), they're close enough for a drop pod full of explosives to blow up the tanks with zero risk to Imperial forces.

That's your assumption. The Marauders were tasked with attacking other industrial targets, the Raven Guard simply assumed the task of eliminating this one. Its even explictly mentioned that the Marauders was unsuitable for CAS, and instead, focused on interdiction missions and attacking other manufacturing facillities. There was simply no mention of how effective/ineffective the Marauders were at doing so.

I'm not talking about CAS, I'm talking about the fuel tanks, a strategic target. If there aren't enough Marauders (or orbital strikes) available to deal with them properly, the solution is to accept that you can't attack that many targets, not to send in your priceless space marines to hand deliver the melta bombs.

[PainRack]

Drop pod assault ISN"T that precise, that WAS the point. As for WMD, don't be dense, you know plain well I was referring to orbital fire when I said that.

So what? If he's in the area, he's dead. If he isn't in the area, the attack was doomed to failure from the beginning. Showing the corpse adds nothing to the plan.

If he wasn't in the area, the activity of the Elysian would had stirred up ork activity, to the extent that the 7 scout squads could had identified him leading the Dreads in an attack and still allow the Raven Guard to swoop in and kill him.

I'm not talking about CAS, I'm talking about the fuel tanks, a strategic target. If there aren't enough Marauders (or orbital strikes) available to deal with them properly, the solution is to accept that you can't attack that many targets, not to send in your priceless space marines to hand deliver the melta bombs.

WTF? WHY? Did the Space Marines fail to achieve their mission or suffer crippling casualties? Nope. Were they needed badly elsewhere? Nope. At that point in time, Korvydae was still being held in reserve. Was this a misuse of Space Marines? Its standard training and etc.


As for not being enough Marauders, again, the Marauders were being tasked with other targets elsewhere. For example

The Orks on Kastorel-Novem had built several scattered airfields. Marauder bomber raids inflicted damage, but failed to stop the Ork air force from joining the battle.

Again, its only stupid if other forces were available and the Space Marines were needlessly exposed to additional risks. You can't prove that. We know the Marauders were tasked with other targets, the main fuel dumps were a valid target which could achieve both the strategic targets and goals of the raid, the Space Marines were available and they succeeded. Just WHAT is so wrong about their use? If anything, it was the least objectionable part of their tactics.

How effective were the Marauders?

Very few Ork Bommers were encountered. It is thought that most were destroyed in the Marauder's pre-emptive strikes. Only three would be seen in the skies over the battlefields.

[Black Admiral]

Korvydae did make multiple mistakes and they should know better. But I'm trying to retcon the thing beyond WTF were they thinking.
I won't say that no orbital bombardment was executed. We only saw one tactical execution of orbital fire in close support, but there is nothing to suggest that fires weren't conducted on other targets.

There is - the fact that Buzzgob's army wasn't reduced to a collection of smouldering craters before they had the chance to depart the staging area for their last assault on the Elysians. Not only does Korvydae have that staging area fixed to a fair-thee-well, there's absolutely nothing (no orbital defences, no surface to space weapons, no Ork warships) stopping his strike cruiser from just laying down hatred & discontent on the Orks until her bombardment cannon magazines are empty or Buzzgob's army are all dead, whichever comes first.

I will also point out that the total buffoon manages to horrendously misaim the one fire mission we have evidence for him calling in - how the hell you miss an Ork army with literally hours to get the shot set up I don't know (and he called it in too late to do any good, to boot).

To be honest, a LOT of the problems disappear if you simply assume that the Ravens DID know the extent of the Ork numbers and they SCREWED the Guard regiment so that they had a chance to take out the Mekboss. Think about it. Its canon lore that Space Marines don't work well with other Imperial forces because of their superhuman status, setting them tasks that Guardsmen can't complete. This is a perfect example. The Guardsmen deployment makes no sense otherwise. The RG expecting the Guardsmen to be Space Marines lite to execute their portion of the mission so that the RG dicks could seize the glory of taking out the Mekboss personally...... that's shift its back into the themes of Wh40k nicely without sheer, utter idiocy. Because seriously, the tactics make no sense WHATSOEVER unless you assume that the primary goal was to take out the Mekboss, and that the Gargant was nothing more than a secondary target aimed to do this.

Except that the Raven Guard don't work that way. If they were using the Elysians for the purpose of drawing out Buzzgob, they'd tell them so - this comes up specifically in Deliverance Lost, with sub-Caesari Valerius being told explicitly that the whole point of the Therion Cohort's assault on the city of Narsis (which for various reasons has no chance of succeeding) is to draw out the Emperor's Children garrison so that the Raven Guard (and Imperial Fists & Custodes) can off them, and comes up again in Unkindness of Ravens when Captain Koryn explains to Captain Daed of the Brazen Minotaurs exactly why he wants Daed to launch an at best reckless attack on a Chaos fortress (providing a distraction to get Koryn's own strike force in). Also, glory-seeking is exactly the opposite of the Raven Guard's attitude; they'd much rather as few people as possible know they're even in a particular war zone.

So, yeah. Might buy that theory if this was the Red Scorpions; not going to buy it for the Raven Guard. And this still does not excuse Korvydae going about this in basically the least patient and least subtle way he can conceivably manage, which is basically a total one-eighty from Raven Guard doctrine. So he wants to kill Buzzgob, fine. Then infiltrate a small force of Scout Squads and have them watching a location (the Gargant Yards) where you know he's got to show up sooner or later, then when he does either shoot him yourself or have the warship you deployed from atomise him (and the entire surrounding few kilometres) and book it to your pickup Thunderhawk.

Problem solved, no better part of a Company of Raven Guard + regiment of Elysians pissed away for no results at all.

The last question is orbital fire...
For this, we could only point to this.

The only other aid he could call upon was from the strike cruiser. The Aeruginosus could begin with an orbital bombardment of known Ork concentrations, lending some much needed heavy firepower to the drop troop's withdrawal.

Korvyadae by this point was probably suffering from mission creep and the Imperium reluctance to use orbital gunfire in tactical support. A sustained fire mission to destroy the Gargant might had consumed too many fires that it could had dedicated to other targets, and Korvydae and the Marines focused on suppressing Ork responses to their incursion, to the extent that he abandoned his strategic goal accidently.

That simply adds the strike cruiser's fire control team to the list of people who need to be shot for incompetence, because their interdiction strikes (if they are actually firing any, which I'm sceptical of) are so ineptly executed that at no point are the Orks even slowed down in counter-attacking the Raven Guard and Elysian forces.

The Chapter had pre-planned the attack in detail and designated the Elysian Drop Troopers their mission objectives.
The Raven Guard's own forces also had their objectives.Before offensive operations could begin they would be sending seven Scout teams back onto Kastorel-Novem. These would already be operating in secret when the main attack began. Once the Orks had been stirred into action by the Elysian landings, the Raven Guard would be airborne in Thunderhawks and their strike cruiser would be racing into position to deploy their drop-pod squads.

During the raid the Raven Guard's mission was to identify and eliminate the Ork Warlord's chief technical specialist. Their Scouts would be seeking him out. Once located, the Raven Guard's main strike force would land en-masse and attack. In the general confusion of the fighting and with the Orks already fully distracted by the Elysians, the Raven Guard would be able to overwhelm the Ork commander's bodyguards and kill him thus inflicting an irreplaceable dent in Garaghak's ambitions.

So,in reply to Black Admiral, the Space Marines did focus on the area around the Gargant. Shield force was aware of Space Marine scouts operating in their area. In the overall plan, this means that Sword would destroy the Gargant and flush out the Mekboss, leaving him exposed in the open to the Raven Guard, who would then sweep in and kill him. Shield force would block the Orks escape route, preventing Buzzgob from fleeing.

You're not convincing me this is a good plan, or that Korvydae knows what he's doing - and this doesn't even get into his utterly craven behaviour in not merely failing to but actively ensuring that he can't command his forces worth shit. Fuck, Shrike knocks up a better plan inside of an hour in Hunt For Voldorius and then actually stays aboard his Command Thunderhawk coordinating things rather than running around like a gibbering idiot (Korvydae probably doing this with his vox switched off, the craven ass).

[PainRack]

There is - the fact that Buzzgob's army wasn't reduced to a collection of smouldering craters before they had the chance to depart the staging area for their last assault on the Elysians. Not only does Korvydae have that staging area fixed to a fair-thee-well, there's absolutely nothing (no orbital defences, no surface to space weapons, no Ork warships) stopping his strike cruiser from just laying down hatred & discontent on the Orks until her bombardment cannon magazines are empty or Buzzgob's army are all dead, whichever comes first.

Again, you don't know that no orbital fires weren't conducted. The Aeruginosus was ordered to attack known Ork concentrations, it just so happened that we only see her firing once in the Elysian zone. A possible retcon, and I must emphasize this again, this whole exercise is one in retcon is that other targets/concentrations were engaged.


As for missing..... I do know that the supposed target was the stompa, but we aren't told explictly that it was. A possible retcon is that there were other targets which were hit and eliminated. The description offered is of the aftermath of the strike. As for why more dangerous targets, friendly fire concerns perhaps. We are told in other sources that orbital fire isn't precise, in cases, inaccurate enough not to be used on armoured columns, although as in Wh40k, this is contradicted promptly elsewhere.

Except that the Raven Guard don't work that way.

We ARE told that the Guardsmen were a diversionary attack.
We aren't told that the Guardsmen roles were to establish a blocking force and to sweep the area for Buzzgob, but the mission objectives given to the Guardsmen shows that this is the only possible interpretation of their role.
The Adept who compiled the narrative for us simply didn't describe this aspect to us, for propaganda or other reasons.

That simply adds the strike cruiser's fire control team to the list of people who need to be shot for incompetence, because their interdiction strikes (if they are actually firing any, which I'm sceptical of) are so ineptly executed that at no point are the Orks even slowed down in counter-attacking the Raven Guard and Elysian forces.

We don't see any successful evidence of it you mean. A possible retcon is that there were elements which were slowed down. For example, further bombardment of Ork airfields which limited the Orks ability to intercept the Elysian airforce.

You're not convincing me this is a good plan, or that Korvydae knows what he's doing - and this doesn't even get into his utterly craven behaviour in not merely failing to but actively ensuring that he can't command his forces worth shit. Fuck, Shrike knocks up a better plan inside of an hour in Hunt For Voldorius and then actually stays aboard his Command Thunderhawk coordinating things rather than running around like a gibbering idiot (Korvydae probably doing this with his vox switched off, the craven ass).

I explictly pointed out that Korvydae miscalculated, and offered an in universe plausible reason why. Space Marines don't work well with Guardsmen, because they often overestimate the limitations of Guardsmen. The goal of the retcon is to establish a scenario where the raid isn't WTF were they doing.

As for actively ensuring he can't command, mind elaborating?

[lPeregrine]

Drop pod assault ISN"T that precise, that WAS the point. As for WMD, don't be dense, you know plain well I was referring to orbital fire when I said that.

And my point is that I'm NOT referring to WMD, so bringing up the Imperium's reluctance to use WMDs as a reason for making the drop pod assault is just stupid. The level of firepower required to blow the fuel tanks up from a safe distance without ever involving any infantry is FAR below WMD level.

If he wasn't in the area, the activity of the Elysian would had stirred up ork activity, to the extent that the 7 scout squads could had identified him leading the Dreads in an attack and still allow the Raven Guard to swoop in and kill him.

By "not in the area" I mean "off collecting a particularly interesting bit of scrap 500 miles away", not "in the adjacent scrapheap". If he isn't close enough to quickly enter the battle, the mission is doomed from the start because you just dropped a small infantry force into the middle of a swarm of orks with a battle plan that isn't "kill the target and get out ASAP".

And of course if he is nearby, simply bombing the entire scrapyard from orbit should get the job done just fine.

WTF? WHY? Did the Space Marines fail to achieve their mission or suffer crippling casualties? Nope. Were they needed badly elsewhere? Nope. At that point in time, Korvydae was still being held in reserve. Was this a misuse of Space Marines? Its standard training and etc.

No, they didn't suffer casualties, but their success was despite the stupidity of the plan. Making an infantry attack exposes valuable space marines to completely unnecessary risk, and it's pure blind luck that the orks were unable to take advantage. For example, what happens if the Thunderhawks are driven off by ork fighters and can't pick up the troops before the swarm arrives? Congratulations, you just lost your marines because you were too stupid to just drop a bomb on the target from orbit.

The only reason the battle happened the way it did is because Forge World wanted a tabletop scenario, and "roll a D6, on a 2+ the bomb hits the fuel tanks and you win" isn't a very fun scenario.

Again, its only stupid if other forces were available and the Space Marines were needlessly exposed to additional risks. You can't prove that.

Two words: orbital bombardment. Any plan that involves space marines (or any other infantry) doing anything other than watching from their transports as an orbiting ship blows up the fuel tanks is a needless risk.

We know the Marauders were tasked with other targets, the main fuel dumps were a valid target which could achieve both the strategic targets and goals of the raid, the Space Marines were available and they succeeded.

Except the marines weren't available. Remember how the whole premise is that the marines have to sit around being useless and let the Elysians get massacred because they have to wait for their target to appear? How the hell does it make any sense to send part of the marine force to hit a random secondary target instead of just dropping a bomb on it?

FFS, you even have the extraction Thunderhawks loaded with bombs, and they have to be diverted to the fuel tanks to pick up the infantry anyway.

Just WHAT is so wrong about their use?

The fact that any attack plan that isn't "drop a bomb on it from a safe distance" is incredibly stupid, and done for the sole purpose of creating a tabletop scenario.

[PainRack]

And my point is that I'm NOT referring to WMD, so bringing up the Imperium's reluctance to use WMDs as a reason for making the drop pod assault is just stupid. The level of firepower required to blow the fuel tanks up from a safe distance without ever involving any infantry is FAR below WMD level.

Ahem. Orbital bombardment? And again, drop pod assault isn't that precise.

By "not in the area" I mean "off collecting a particularly interesting bit of scrap 500 miles away", not "in the adjacent scrapheap". If he isn't close enough to quickly enter the battle, the mission is doomed from the start because you just dropped a small infantry force into the middle of a swarm of orks with a battle plan that isn't "kill the target and get out ASAP".

And of course if he is nearby, simply bombing the entire scrapyard from orbit should get the job done just fine.

And if the Raven Guard had simply factored that into the plan? You don't seem to understand that I'm suggesting that the Ravens used the Guard to flush out Buzzgob so that they can locate and eliminate him.

No, they didn't suffer casualties, but their success was despite the stupidity of the plan. Making an infantry attack exposes valuable space marines to completely unnecessary risk, and it's pure blind luck that the orks were unable to take advantage. For example, what happens if the Thunderhawks are driven off by ork fighters and can't pick up the troops before the swarm arrives? Congratulations, you just lost your marines because you were too stupid to just drop a bomb on the target from orbit.

Again. By your very reasoning, every SAS and commando raid ever is dumb.
I already pointed out that the only one other possible asset wasn't used, and that isn't strange due to the Imperium collective policy on orbital bombardment.

Two words: orbital bombardment. Any plan that involves space marines (or any other infantry) doing anything other than watching from their transports as an orbiting ship blows up the fuel tanks is a needless risk.

And again, the Imperium has this very strange collective policy on orbital bombardment and the use of WMD.

Except the marines weren't available. Remember how the whole premise is that the marines have to sit around being useless and let the Elysians get massacred because they have to wait for their target to appear? How the hell does it make any sense to send part of the marine force to hit a random secondary target instead of just dropping a bomb on it?

Except that Korvydae deemed that they WERE available. How the fuck did you assume that they weren't, when they DID send a small strike force from the very begining?

FFS, you even have the extraction Thunderhawks loaded with bombs, and they have to be diverted to the fuel tanks to pick up the infantry anyway.

As the Chaplain-led Strike Force Eitath descended, so Shadow Captain Korvydae's own force was circling in a formation of seven Thunderhawk gunships, awaiting their target. The captain himself was seated inside his command vehicle, a Land Raider Prometheus slung on magnetic hooks beneath its Thunderhawk transporter.

The Thunderhawks were dedicated elsewhere.

[lPeregrine]

Ahem. Orbital bombardment? And again, drop pod assault isn't that precise.

Sure it is. The troops land, and in the next sentence they're already planting melta bombs (IOW, they didn't land a mile away). That's easily within the blast radius of sub-WMD weapons.

And if the Raven Guard had simply factored that into the plan? You don't seem to understand that I'm suggesting that the Ravens used the Guard to flush out Buzzgob so that they can locate and eliminate him.

You're missing the point completely. Buzzgob can be in one of two places:

1) In the general area of the attack, close enough to respond to the Elysians. In this case, simply bombing the whole scrapyard into a crater accomplishes the mission with zero risk and near-certain chances of success.

2) Somewhere else, far enough away that by the time he could get to the battle it will be over. In this case, the mission is doomed from the beginning, nobody is in the right place and the Imperial force will be massacred long before they get a shot at Buzzgob, simply because of the fact that they landed a small infantry force in the middle of a horde of orks.

You can't just dismiss this problem as "but they MUST have factored that into the plan" when the obvious alternative is that it was a stupid plan.

Again. By your very reasoning, every SAS and commando raid ever is dumb.

Except for the fact that most commando raids either:

1) Are against targets that are difficult to reach by direct attack (such as a factory defended by heavy AA), with the commandos sneaking in from outside the range of the target's defenses. This is not the case here, since the marines deploy directly to the target.

or

2) Have a goal beyond "blow up this structure". Again, not the case here, since the sole purpose of the marines was to hand deliver the melta bombs the short distance from the drop pod to the fuel tank.

And again, the Imperium has this very strange collective policy on orbital bombardment and the use of WMD.

FFS, we aren't talking about WMDs.

Blowing up some fuel tanks is NOT a job that requires WMD-level firepower, and there is absolutely no reason that the Imperium's strange reluctance to use WMDs would be in any way relevant.

Except that Korvydae deemed that they WERE available. How the fuck did you assume that they weren't, when they DID send a small strike force from the very begining?

Err, because Korvydae spends half the book flying around on his Thunderhawk whining about how much it sucks that he has to let the Elysians die because he can't afford to deploy his troops until the target is located? Either holding back the marines is absolutely vital, or the marines can be used to blow up any random secondary objective and should have been deployed to support the Elysians, you can't have it both ways.

The Thunderhawks were dedicated elsewhere.

Until they flew in to pick up the marines that had landed at the fuel tanks (you know, since it wasn't a one-way suicide mission). The obvious thing to do would have been to skip the drop pod assault entirely and just have those Thunderhawks make a bombing run, but that wouldn't make a very good tabletop scenario.

[Irbis]

Let me offer counterpoint to a few points raised here:

Except the Imperium:

1) Doesn't care about collateral damage. It's a planet full of orks, just bomb the whole area flat and you can be pretty sure you got him (and even if you didn't, you blew up everything he was building, so a single mek isn't a very big deal). There's no reason to worry about how much other stuff you destroy in the process. In fact, collateral damage would be a bonus here.

This is wrong, IMHO. Imperium does care about collateral damage, especially on planets it owns, or owned. The only enemy that is routinely bombed into extinction on planets it captured is Tyrannid Swarm, and even that because Swarm turns the planets worthless anyway - and bombing even these planets is considered to be unsustainable in long run. Another point is Armageddon - full fledged daemonic invasion, serious enough to execute whole population and troops that defended it, yet the planet was resettled. It seems habitable planets are so valuable IoM spares no expense in lives to keep them so. There is a reason why Krieg seems to be so unique despite all the grimdark.

Another point about bombing planet flat is that the orks presumably still have millions of human slaves, and killing these seems to be unacceptable to human commanders, marine or otherwise. See Cain's adventures on ork held world, or Lamenters history in IA IX - whole Space Marine Chapter prepares their last stand on ork held world to save humans there, and only mass suicide by population moved by their selflessness prevented Lamenters to die to the last one instead of bombing ork world flat.

2) Doesn't need a propaganda victory. They don't need to be 100% sure they got their target so they can brag about it to the civilians without the risk of having him show up alive later. The civilian population is never even going to hear about the battle (or even the target), so it's perfectly acceptable to just say "well, we're pretty sure his corpse is in the crater somewhere".

Also wrong. IoM has a whole propaganda arm, the Church, that in fact does preach propaganda all the time, bragging to population about victories of Emperor's forces. Ok, specific ork living or dying might have little bearing on these, but killing that specific ork is important even without propaganda victory, seeing how ork society works. The more important ork, the better he is at his job, and very prominent mek could make things that would cause Mechanicus to turn green with envy, so making sure he is dead would be far more important than bombing Gargant flat. If he dies, Gargant is as good as mission killed anyway, if he lives, he can make more.

Because you have infantry landing right next to it to plant the bombs. If you just fill the drop pods with explosives, you blow it up without ever risking your troops. The only reason to ever send infantry is so that you can have a tabletop scenario to play, instead of an efficient and one-sided victory.

Let me point out that empty drop pod striking from orbit has more energy than any conventional explosive you can fill it with. If drop pods can hit the tanks, they're killed, explosives or not. If not, tanks survive, explosives or not (unless WMDs). Since the tanks weren't killed with empty drop pod strike, apparently they're not precise enough, or tanks are too well armored to die with just drop pod strike, explosives or not. Note that Melta charges are the best anti-armor devices Marines have, and specialized cumulative charge applied to surface of tank will always beat explosion of generic, unfocused explosive material somewhere in the vicinity.

Just my 0.03$.