Imperial Bio-Scanners (detectability issue)

[Omega-13]

Could the bio scanners on Imperial ships, aswell as key installations (the bio scanners are on the doorways and walls of ships, in certain sections)
could they detect a Shadow? The ones in b5, ... and could they detect nano devices inside humans, ones being controlled by the shadows?

whats your opinion

[Darth Wong]

Who needs bio-scanners? Everything in the universe must achieve thermodynamic equilibrium with the universe, so the Shadows should show up on infrared.

[Gil Hamilton]

Who needs bio-scanners? Everything in the universe must achieve thermodynamic equilibrium with the universe, so the Shadows should show up on infrared.

IIRC, that's exactly how Sheridan detected them the one time.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The Shadows were, when they were trying to hide in plain view, visible only to certain frequencies. The fact that Shadows scampered around visibly when not trying to hide indicates that their ability to hide in plain sight was not an automatic thing.

When Sheridan had the surveillance cameras cycle through various frequencies, the Shadows did become visible for a short time but then faded out again. The simplest explanation is that the Shadows used an active chameleon field of some sort, adjusting their field to perfectly mimic the background from all angles. It would take obscene levels of processing power to run such a system, but nothing that an advanced spacefaring species could not plausibly shrink into a conveniently portable package.

Since, as Mr. Wong pointed out, there is the very real question of thermodynamic equilibrium, the chameleon field needs a window of frequencies through which heat can be dumped. Under ordinary circumstances much of that should be in the infrared band. Since various species and technological imaging systems can have different degrees of sensitivity to particular frequencies of electromagnetic radiation, the chameleon field would have to be equipped with an adjustable window of frequencies to which it is transparent: infrared scanners are relatively easy to produce, and some organisms can see or otherwise sense infrared better than can the heat sensors in human skin, so the IR window must be one that can be closed. To prevent a bug stewing in its own juices, the chameleon field could not completely close its emission windows on all frequencies except for a very short period of perhaps a few minutes. The simplest solution would be for the system to automatically adjust itself to mask those frequencies the system determines to be vulnerable to observation. If only humans are around, for instance, masking UV and IR emissions would be relatively pointless, while an active security camera might require monitoring to determine its sensitive frequencies, with the field adjusted to block those out.

As for the bio scanners, if they employ chemical sniffers and sonics, coupled with a broad-spectrum EM sensor, the Shadow chameleon field should be relatively useless. The Shadow chameleon field does not appear to affect sound, and unless the carapace of a shadow is actually a sealed encounter suit, Shadows will exude organic compounds that a chemical sniffer (or even a simple guard dog) should be able to detect easily. For that matter, an advanced model of stormtrooper helmet could quite possibly see through such a field (as could the variable-band optics of a Predator face mask...).

[Mr Bean]

And a full out rigged private sensor system(Which Lando picked up for Guri scanning) can scan people down to the mocluar level

and thats a publicly avaible tecnology

[SirNitram]

.....

I've not seen that much talk of 'frequencies' since I last asked a Trekkie how shields work.

.....

[HRogge]

Who needs bio-scanners? Everything in the universe must achieve thermodynamic equilibrium with the universe, so the Shadows should show up on infrared.

It might be possible to get rid of waste heat by using other wavelengths than infrared.

You could add additional energy for example to push the emitting wavelength towards the visible spectrum for example. Difficult, but maybe not impossible for the shadows...

but it would make them visible in some spectrum... not necessary infrared, but a broad-spectrum sensor array would see them.

[SirNitram]

......

Heat dumping in a wavelength other than infrared?

What the FUCK?

[David]

.....

I've not seen that much talk of 'frequencies' since I last asked a Trekkie how shields work.

.....

[Omega-13]

Who needs bio-scanners? Everything in the universe must achieve thermodynamic equilibrium with the universe, so the Shadows should show up on infrared.

all that talk from the 5'ers how shadows would be easily able to hide on an imperial ship without going un noticed is such bullshit

[HRogge]

......

Heat dumping in a wavelength other than infrared?

What the FUCK?

Think about it like a gas laser...

you have an energized gas ( it's hot )... now you pump a little bit more energy into the gas to activate the laser effect...

[SirNitram]

......

Heat dumping in a wavelength other than infrared?

What the FUCK?

Think about it like a gas laser...

you have an energized gas ( it's hot )... now you pump a little bit more energy into the gas to activate the laser effect...

You are aware that lasers have massive heat signatures? You are aware that lasers are very detectable?

[HRogge]

You are aware that lasers have massive heat signatures? You are aware that lasers are very detectable?

Yes I'm aware that our lasers have this problem.

It's possible that a atom absorbs two photons and emit the energy as a single photon, but it's not very likely.

It was only an idea to sidestep the cooling problem. The Shadows problem is that they produce waste energy ( mostly heat ) and they have to get rid of it. maybe they found a way to energize the EM energy a little bit more to make it visible light... or UV...

Of course this would mean they are still visible at some frequency, but not necessary IR... still detectable to a good EM sensor system.

[SirNitram]

You are aware that lasers have massive heat signatures? You are aware that lasers are very detectable?

Yes I'm aware that our lasers have this problem.

It's possible that a atom absorbs two photons and emit the energy as a single photon, but it's not very likely.

It was only an idea to sidestep the cooling problem. The Shadows problem is that they produce waste energy ( mostly heat ) and they have to get rid of it. maybe they found a way to energize the EM energy a little bit more to make it visible light... or UV...

Of course this would mean they are still visible at some frequency, but not necessary IR... still detectable to a good EM sensor system.

If you think heat is any other frequency except infrared I think you've been in the whacky weed too long.

[HRogge]

If you think heat is any other frequency except infrared I think you've been in the whacky weed too long.

The frequency of emitted light depends on the temperature of the gas.
Hot stellar nebulas for example emit VISIBLE light... without any kind of fusion.

[SirNitram]

If you think heat is any other frequency except infrared I think you've been in the whacky weed too long.

The frequency of emitted light depends on the temperature of the gas.
Hot stellar nebulas for example emit VISIBLE light... without any kind of fusion.

Very good, the reactions generating the heat also generate light.

Heat will only ever be emitted onto the infrared. Unless you have some actual scientific evidence you can do otherwise, kindly STFU.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, the frequency of emitted quanta is affected by temperature. That's why iron glows red-hot when it's heated to the point of softness. However, that is a red herring when discussing heat in the context of a biological creature, which can only function in a narrow range of temperatures. Moreover, it assumes narrow-band emissions, which would not be the case.

If Shadows were hot enough to emit light in the visible spectrum, they would be hot enough to mark the floor and (given their large surface area) produce visible heat shimmer effects. If Shadows were cold enough to emit light below the infrared spectrum, they would produce fog, as the air around their bodies cools through convective heat transfer and moisture precipitates out. If they were hot enough to emit light above the visible spectrum, they would be hotter than the surface of the Sun, and you would goddamned well notice that if you were standing next to one.

In short, it is possible for heat radiation to be emitted outside the infrared spectrum. However, that is irrelevant in this case, since we are obviously dealing with beings whose surface temperature cannot be greatly different from our own due to the lack of observed side-effects.

[Omega-13]

They could be venting heat into hyperspace, though i have no evidence of this

[Patrick Ogaard]

No need to freak, SirNitram.

My point, reformulated slightly for better comprehensibility, is the following:

The Shadows have to be using some manner of chameleon field, actively matching the background from all angles in real time, fast enough for there to be no shimmer or other visual distortion. That indicates extremely complex and capable optics, reaching at least slightly beyond the band of visible light at both ends, and extremely fast computing/scanning abilities.

Also, since IR emissions and reflections have been easily detectable with man-portable gear since at least the mid-1900s, and some alien species may well have vision that extends slightly into the infrared, the chameleon field must be able to deal with IR emissions. The obvious difficulty of doing that seems to indicate that it would be a good idea for the systems controlling the field to maintain a passive scan of the area, only activating IR muffling/matching when necessary.

Similarly, since terrestrial arthropods and even some humans can perceive UV emissions as visible light, there must be a similar option to deal with UV emissions and reflections.

Regardless of whether IR or UV or both should be being masked, the Shadows would need to employ some means of dealing with the attendant effects. The only way I can think up right off hand would be to use a heat sink (which I should have mentioned in my first post) in the form of an insulated heat storage unit. From this unit heat can then be drained and re-radiated in a controlled manner, either as heat once the masking of IR becomes unnecessary, or as radiation in some other electromagnetic band unlikely to immediately be noticed or harmful to the Shadow. Obviously, if UV radiation or radio frequency radiation is used, anyone nearby for any length of time is going to be experiencing mysterious health problems. In any event the endurance of a chameleon field subjected to extended high demands is probably going to be extremely short, likely in the neighborhood of minutes to, at most, an hour or two. The chameleon system itself would have to generate a certain level of waste heat while operating, further complicating the matter of managing those pesky IR emissions.

Dealing with frequencies shorter than UV or longer than IR would be far too much trouble to be worth the effort, except perhaps for something like a full-fledged warship. Should advanced stormtrooper helmet or weapon optics include millimeter wave radar, even passive radar, as a sensor option, that in itself would almost automatically blow Shadow sneaking efforts.

As for the possibility that the Shadows might use mental powers to cloud men's minds like the Shadow, that sort of thing is unlikely to affect automated systems, which the chameleon abilities of the Shadows certainly did.

All the canon material I've seen to date indicates that the stealth capabilities of individual shadows would not be able to withstand a determined effort by modern forces to detect them. IR and UV imaging are both quite possible with modern technology, as is the use of such things as "soft" x-rays and low-powered radar for short range imaging, chemical sniffers and trained animals for detection of organic substances, pressure plates to detect the mass of infiltrators, and the use of ultrasonics and lasers to detect motion. Even a single-person turnstile/airlock system would be a useful security measure against Shadow infiltration. Tough to see how the Shadows could have boarded B5 and get through a customs checkpoint that should have had all those options available.

Imperial sensors and security scanners should therefore have no trouble at all detecting Shadows.

[HRogge]

Actually, the frequency of emitted quanta is affected by temperature. That's why iron glows red-hot when it's heated to the point of softness. However, that is a red herring when discussing heat in the context of a biological creature, which can only function in a narrow range of temperatures. Moreover, it assumes narrow-band emissions, which would not be the case.

If Shadows were hot enough to emit light in the visible spectrum, they would be hot enough to mark the floor and (given their large surface area) produce visible heat shimmer effects. If Shadows were cold enough to emit light below the infrared spectrum, they would produce fog, as the air around their bodies cools through convective heat transfer and moisture precipitates out. If they were hot enough to emit light above the visible spectrum, they would be hotter than the surface of the Sun, and you would goddamned well notice that if you were standing next to one.

In short, it is possible for heat radiation to be emitted outside the infrared spectrum. However, that is irrelevant in this case, since we are obviously dealing with beings whose surface temperature cannot be greatly different from our own due to the lack of observed side-effects.

Of course. I just mentioned it to proof that there are other ways to get rid of waste energy than infrared radiation. I don't think the cloaking effect of the shadows is a "natural" ability, so they might find a way to get rid of the waste energy... or they just have to turn off the cloaking field after some time to prevent overheating...

[Darth Wong]

Of course. I just mentioned it to proof that there are other ways to get rid of waste energy than infrared radiation. I don't think the cloaking effect of the shadows is a "natural" ability, so they might find a way to get rid of the waste energy... or they just have to turn off the cloaking field after some time to prevent overheating...

You act as though infrared is a voluntary emission. It is not; any material will naturally radiate infrared at the temperatures we're talking about. The only way to mask it is to collect it after it is emitted, which implies an outbound blocking mechanism. As others have pointed out, one might argue that this outbound blocking mechanism can then funnel heat into a heat sink and then dump it somehow.

This would be fine, except for one little detail: we have seen simple frequency-scan changes pick up Shadows in the canon show. Moreover, when the frequency was changed to the correct band, the emissions were in the exact shape of the Shadows, which means that it was picking up natural body emissions and not a directed stream from some kind of active radiator.

[HRogge]

Of course. I just mentioned it to proof that there are other ways to get rid of waste energy than infrared radiation. I don't think the cloaking effect of the shadows is a "natural" ability, so they might find a way to get rid of the waste energy... or they just have to turn off the cloaking field after some time to prevent overheating...

You act as though infrared is a voluntary emission. It is not; any material will naturally radiate infrared at the temperatures we're talking about. The only way to mask it is to collect it after it is emitted, which implies an outbound blocking mechanism. As others have pointed out, one might argue that this outbound blocking mechanism can then funnel heat into a heat sink and then dump it somehow.

This would be fine, except for one little detail: we have seen simple frequency-scan changes pick up Shadows in the canon show. Moreover, when the frequency was changed to the correct band, the emissions were in the exact shape of the Shadows, which means that it was picking up natural body emissions and not a directed stream from some kind of active radiator.

I think the shadows need some external "field" to block their visible light emissions, so they could use the same field to block IR emissions too. Their only problem would be the overheating inside the field, so they have to get rid of the waste energy by an artificial way.

( Similar to the ideas about the Jem Hadar cloak you wrote on your webpage ).

Maybe that's the reason why they became invisible on IR only after being seen. Their IR cloaking might be not working for a long time so they only "activate" it when necessary.

But in the end it would be no real use...