Have Lasers Fallen By The Way Side In Popular Sci-Fi?

[Simon_Jester]

Put this way- here's how I figure it.

The people who are drawn to movies for the explosions are very fickle: they show up more or less at random and go away more or less at random.

The people who like intrigue and characters are more likely to buy on DVD or other merchandising tie-ins, which makes a big difference.

[Stark]

Is that really the case? Surely people who buy action figures and big punching fists and the like are kids (or fatty man-children) and you'd assume they're more interested in action and humour than deep and complex themes about the interaction of power, faith and freedom in an allegorical world.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. I'd expect that for a lot of fiction the enduring fanbase matters, but I am not a marketing executive.

I mean, creators do go out of their way to encourage that fanbase. But what does that signify? Are they encouraging simple-minded children to buy action figures? Or adults who have a more complicated view of the story, who buy things like novelizations? Or trying to kill two birds with one stone and encouraging both?

This is not a simple question; you have a point.

[jollyreaper]

I'm thinking of a certain anime, Evangelion. I know now that a lot of the stuff they threw in was at random and with no deeper significance -- all the kaballah stuff was just because it was western and alien -- but there was still enough psychological damage in a ll the characters that you could have long discussions about what it all meant. However, there's a huge fanbase who are buying Rei Ayanami fetish dolls. I don't just mean character models exactly like from the show, I mean ones that have the breasts and bottom off-model to a ridiculous degree and half-naked and yet officially licensed from the show.

I'm sure someone's run the numbers at Gainax. How many fans are coming for the story and how many are perving on the females? Who makes us the most money? Let's cater to them.

When I read over this it's coming out in Alan Rickman's voice, ala Galaxy Quest. Fans Help pay the freight so suck it up... Heh.

[VF5SS]

I wouldn't trust Gainax's numbers on anything because they are notorious for being a bunch of mismanaging embezzlers but anyways :v

It is generally said that Evangelion helped kick off the plastic girl figure market. It was around the time when manufacturing technology for mass release merchandise was catching to the level of detail in low run hand casted resin kits. The initial Evangelion merchandise from its largest sponsor, Bandai, was rather poor though. It was said that the Evas themselves were designed so only an expensive resin kit sculpted by the best artists could hope to capture all the nuances of the Eva units in plastic.

I would say that due to how over-saturated the anime market is in Japan, I would still attribute the success of Evangelion's merchandise to people being genuinely invested in the property. Most profitable series are very keen on forming connections to the audience through the characters and setting and in Evangelion's case, it was genuine fervor for the whole package that kept fans hooked for years to come. Nowadays it can be hard to judge when Asuka and Rei get turned into mermaids, maids, soldiers, nurses, etc to hock the merch but that's more due to have much the franchise has penetrated the otaku market.

[jollyreaper]

I haven't been keeping up with anime much but I've never seen so many spin off products. What else can compare in popularity and diversity, maybe the Gundams?

[Simon_Jester]

I'm thinking of a certain anime, Evangelion. I know now that a lot of the stuff they threw in was at random and with no deeper significance -- all the kaballah stuff was just because it was western and alien -- but there was still enough psychological damage in a ll the characters that you could have long discussions about what it all meant. However, there's a huge fanbase who are buying Rei Ayanami fetish dolls. I don't just mean character models exactly like from the show, I mean ones that have the breasts and bottom off-model to a ridiculous degree and half-naked and yet officially licensed from the show.

I'm sure someone's run the numbers at Gainax. How many fans are coming for the story and how many are perving on the females? Who makes us the most money? Let's cater to them.

Well, Japanese people are crazy...

Now seriously- if the perving-out demographic can obsess over Rei Ayanami, they'll obsess over anyone. Rei is barely human from what I remember. One advantage of this for the producer is that they can basically write whatever characters they want, put the women in a bikini a few times, and have a guaranteed viewer-base... without actually having to work very hard for it.

Except of course for the market penetration factor VF is talking about. But think about it- if you're not selling based on quality of story and characterization to get that, it's practically random. You can't plan for random.

[someone_else]

And frankly I can't tell what you're talking about- "that was just smart propaganda." What do you mean? The notion of a better tomorrow is propaganda?

If that "better tomorrow" is an idealized (more or less) version of the US way of life of the times, yes. That was the most common setting.

A lot of people I know that have read the same books as I had, have been "brainwashed" by this into believing the US is much closer to what the US keeps trumpeting of itself even now than what it actually is.

Hell, I even had to de-brainwash myself.

we have to think ahead or we risk losing everything

Lolololol But there is no sign this is going to happen anytime soon. Nor that it happened in the past when the men in the past faced similar situations. Nor that SF or fiction more in general has any kind of role in this.

ECR's criticism is based on the idea that science fiction has a role to play, in encouraging us to think ahead. By ignoring that and saying fiction is only there for entertainment, you... really aren't answering his criticism at all.

I'm saying that his criticism is based on a bullshit idea. Which is permitted, I think.

A very high amount (if not the overwhelming majority) of SF is outrageously commercial bullcrap made only to sell, to people that don't really know (if they care at all) if the settings will come true but like to dream they will.

Not unlike the fantasy bullcrap that has taken its place atm. Not saying they are bad stories (a lot are), but use more or less the same plots with a few (techno)magic gimmicks in them to make them look different, and usually a good amount of boobs since commercial SF it's a more male-oriented kind of fiction. People keep buying them because it's PEOPLE that keeps changing (new readers coming in, old readers going out), not the written stuff per-se.
You may have noticed some significant similarities between Star Trek and the Odissey, for example.

If you expect SF to go and change the minds of these average consumers, I'm just saying that your expectation will crash and burn.

[Ford Prefect]

I haven't been keeping up with anime much but I've never seen so many spin off products. What else can compare in popularity and diversity, maybe the Gundams?

The scale of merch that came out of Evangelion has no rival other than Mobile Suit Gundam (which has 90% of the model kit market in Japan), but even that doesn't have the ridiculous breadth of stuff. Evangelion was Gainax's first profitable venture, and its massive popularity allowed them to keep pumping that merchandise out to bankroll the studio. however, like Veef I would argue that its initial take-off was less to do with pervy otaku wanting to buy fetish dolls and more to do with how the show simply connected with such a large audience. This is something of a reverse of Gundam where its initial appreciation arose out of its rad toys, and it was only later that people began to recognise its strengths as an actual television show.

I mean I bought a bunch of t-shirts from the Evangelion store in Harajuku so it must be doing something right.

[Simon_Jester]

And frankly I can't tell what you're talking about- "that was just smart propaganda." What do you mean? The notion of a better tomorrow is propaganda?

If that "better tomorrow" is an idealized (more or less) version of the US way of life of the times, yes. That was the most common setting.

A lot of people I know that have read the same books as I had, have been "brainwashed" by this into believing the US is much closer to what the US keeps trumpeting of itself even now than what it actually is.

Hell, I even had to de-brainwash myself.

You are the victim of a small reference pool.

There were vast amounts of SF literature from the earliest days of the genre on that criticized the contemporary American way of life, that predicted bad consequences if some trend in American life proceeded unchecked, or that portrayed societies totally different from anything ever experienced in America.

And that's not even talking about science fiction in, say, the Soviet bloc.

we have to think ahead or we risk losing everything

Lolololol But there is no sign this is going to happen anytime soon. Nor that it happened in the past when the men in the past faced similar situations. Nor that SF or fiction more in general has any kind of role in this.

Getting at least a bit of cluefulness about long-term problems like the threat of nuclear war helped lead to disarmament treaties. Having people think about how bad the environment was has gotten us acting on pollution, and has gotten at least minimal action on global warming.

There are a lot of countries that make long range plans, and a lot of people who are influenced to act on long range concerns "Our product- now environmentally friendly!" because other people care about those concerns. The fact that the US government can't handle anything more than a three month planning horizon right now doesn't mean they're the global norm.

Don't mistake American politics for the whole world- if you think "America-centrism" is a problem, you should be especially careful to avoid that.

Now, does art have any role in this? Obviously not. Because no one ever walks out of a movie theater thinking, or makes analogies to movie situations when talking about real life policy. Who could imagine that happening? It's all mindless explosions and boobs, right?

ECR's criticism is based on the idea that science fiction has a role to play, in encouraging us to think ahead. By ignoring that and saying fiction is only there for entertainment, you... really aren't answering his criticism at all.

I'm saying that his criticism is based on a bullshit idea. Which is permitted, I think.

Actually, I'd say you're illustrating his point splendidly. I don't think it's unfair to sum up your argument as:

"There's no cultural point to art, certainly not this sort of art. It's strictly commercial and strictly entertainment. And if you really believe there's anything in the notion of trying to encourage people to think about what the future might be like, you're kidding yourself. The average person doesn't learn. LOL."

Now, I compare that to:

Probably closer to the civilisational truth, though- the metaargument here is that we don't need to care because we don't have any say in the future, it isn't just around the corner, and we don't own the corner anyway. We don't need to understand it, it'll just come washing over us like more of the present, and we can't do anything about it.

And it looks pretty similar to me.

And I agree with ECR- that's nihilism, not a necessary element of realism.

A very high amount (if not the overwhelming majority) of SF is outrageously commercial bullcrap made only to sell, to people that don't really know (if they care at all) if the settings will come true but like to dream they will.

Not unlike the fantasy bullcrap that has taken its place atm. Not saying they are bad stories (a lot are), but use more or less the same plots with a few (techno)magic gimmicks in them to make them look different, and usually a good amount of boobs since commercial SF it's a more male-oriented kind of fiction. People keep buying them because it's PEOPLE that keeps changing (new readers coming in, old readers going out), not the written stuff per-se.
You may have noticed some significant similarities between Star Trek and the Odissey, for example.

If you expect SF to go and change the minds of these average consumers, I'm just saying that your expectation will crash and burn.

You know, there are ways for art to influence society other than "Show your TV show, and the next minute everyone gets up and goes "My God, you're right! I'm changing my mind now!"'

Science fiction helped get people thinking about how bad nuclear wars would be, in the '50s and '60s. It helped express concerns about the environment, global warming, and resource depletion in the '70s and '80s (Soylent Green comes to mind). Today it gets people thinking about things like cloning and robotics and government surveillance.

Not everyone sees any one piece of fiction. Of those who see one, not everyone cares strongly. They don't impact every single person deeply. But that's an absurd strawman version of the thesis that art can influence society. Art impacts some people deeply, and forms part of a general zeitgeist for others, and so in a gradual way helps make people conscious of what is happening in (and to) their world. Particularly the relatively intelligent and educated people who, de facto, tend to set the tone of political debates.