Disk Grenades Can They Be Effective Weapons

[TeufelIV]

So this question has been bugging me a bit.

I have seen disk grenades in a few different forms of media now. Command and Conquer Tiberium Sun, Mass Effect, Lost Planet, and in table top Rpg games.

A few things first.

One of the ideas behind these grenades is to provide a more aerodynamic body to the explosive allowing it be thrown farther then a regular hand grenade. Some media has skilled users able to skip the grenade off of flat surfaces or water.

There has been at least one confirmed disk grenade type weapon. It was a type of impact grenade used by the Germans in WWI. The design was abandoned in favor of other designs. The reason for abandoning the design was simple. Despite the multiple impact fuses on the grenade it did not go off reliably or it proved hazardous to the user in certain circumstances.

Supposedly in World War II the Germans experimented with a substance called nippolite. A type of explosive that was poured into a mold, hardened and then could be shaped with tools and fitted with a fuse. They made a disk explosive that would be used as an Anti-tank weapon and a version used on bunkers. The idea was the explosive made of a mixture of substance including phosphorus would form the disk and the disk fitted with a hand grenade fuse. The disk was made to be jammed in tracks, under turrets, vision slits, or other vulnerable places on the tank. They could possibly stack disks together for a more powerful blast effect. The grenades were said to be just aerodynamic enough to thrown frisbee style onto tank tops and at enemy infantry. The very limited sources (the one book I could find and I find it's reliability a touch dubious) state it only saw use on the Eastern Front.

My question is how reliable would an actual aerodynamically designed disk like explosive be?

My questions and concerns are explosive power, fragmentation, weight, size, and shape of the explosives.

Due to the shape of the explosive very likely being a disk, how much would that effect the blast pattern of the grenade?

Could you pack the same amount of power into a disk of equal or comparable weight to any number of standard infantry grenades we use today?

Throwing these weapons would have to be done quite differently compared to hand grenades and seems like it would drastically limit their usefulness in a variety of situations like throwing grenades from cover or around corners. A disk grenade strikes me as limited situation type weapon.

Thoughts? Comments?

[Sarevok]

Would not a grenade launcher be better if you wanted to extend the range of your grenades ?

[Sea Skimmer]

The Nipolit grenades existed mainly because the explosive could be made out of gunpowder that had gone bad, and used up a minimal amount of nitric acid which was in short supply for making explosives. After that they kind of just had to invent ways to use it, but the only ones known to have been produced in any numbers, which still wasn't much, were in normal egg or stick grenade shapes. The disk one IIRC was intended to be pushed through the drivers viewport on certain tanks. Bit of a niche use.

The problem with a disk grenade is it would be hard to grip with reliability, a frisbee has a lip around the edge for this afterall and it weighs far less. Loose grip on a grenade and it falls next to you, this is very bad. If you kept the weight down I suppose it would be able to fly fairly hard, the problem is you would also be throwing it on a flat trajectory. That's kind of useless. Against a tank it isn't very likely to hurt it since you aren't going to have a shaped charge in a tank, against infantry you generally want to lob a grenade in the air so it will land down into enemy positions.

In terms of explosive effect a disk is bad. The brunt of the blast will be directed upwards and downwards across the wide portion of the disk, which means people laying on the ground around it are affected less. This is why grenades are normally egg shape or cylinders, this directs more blast radially. So no reason to adapt such a weapon. In general when it comes to a simple low cost weapon like a a special hand grenade, total lack of proliferation is a good sign that nobody sees a use for it. The solution to range for grenades was rifle grenades in the world wars and then modern styles of high pressure-low pressure grenade launchers. Both kick the shit out of anything you could dream of throwing, even if you had a actual glider grenade somehow (explosive laced paper?)

Both world wars were full of random new hand grenade types, the British had one that had a metal shell that fell away as you threw it for example (actually a bit like a disk), revealing a glass jar of nitroglycerin inside a sock covered in glue. It was supposed to stick to tanks and blow them up. Users totally loved this idea. The US meanwhile at one point was trying to make a grenade exactly like a baseball on the grounds that troops already knew how to throw baseballs, but it proved near impossible to reconcile this with a workable fuse.

[TeufelIV]

Sarevok: That is kind of my question. Why use a disk grenade at all when a simpler and more effective means exists? The only reason I can figure out is rule of cool.

Sea Skimmer: I was hoping you would show up. Even better some info on the Nippolite I did not know.

I figured there would be a number limitations to the disk grenade. I had forgotten to think about simply holding it reliably. They could put a grip onto the rim or edge somewhere but there are still the number of other issues. I figured the disk just isn't practical compared to current hand grenades. Like you noted the shape is ideal for blast patterns and is honestly easier to throw. As an anti-tank weapon a disk grenade doesn't strike me as practical at all. I figured the German AT disk was used more like a satchel charge or similar explosives. Run up pull pin/cord, shove into spot, and run away or seek cover.

Grenade launchers and the rifle grenades do make more sense for simply extending the range and even better can fire a variety of special effects rounds.

I knew about the various experimental grenades like the British sticky grenade and the sticky bomb. If I recall both of those weapons were more dangerous to their users and had a high degree of unreliability. There is also a variety of anti-tank grenades using shaped charges like the German Panzerwurfmine,the Russian RPG-43, the the Russian RPG-6, and so on.

Well that pretty much answered my questions and confirmed my suspicions. Disk grenades would not really be effective compared standard design hand grenades and you get better range with launchers or "rifle grenade" designs. Which leaves the rule of cool.

Thanks guys.

[Rossum]

Plus, using a thrown disk grenade would require that the user be proficient with throwing said disk. I've thrown frisbees before and there's always the risk that a gust of wind or a miscalcualtion (which would be a problem in a combat situation) results in the frisbee taking a weird course or even flying right back at the thrower. Plus, that's just a lightweight frisbee sized device, an actual grenade would be heavier and more like a discus which would require alot of training to use properly.

So yeah, either know how to throw a usable grenade or use a grenade launcher.

[Sea Skimmer]

Worth considering that stick grenades do lob about 50% further then egg grenades, and are fairly easy to use, and yet you see very few nations using them today, while most never did. Nor do you often hear stories about how poor allied troops were outranged by German hand grenades in combat. Egg grenades are easy to carry in bulk, while a stick or disk is less so, and generally the most important thing about a grenade is that you have lots of them to use and that they can be used quickly. It wasn't uncommon in the world wars or even today to have troops carrying them forward in sandbags, often multiple bags per man. In some of the most intensive actions in Okinawa single US companies used up a thousand grenades, and cases existed of a dozen per man being carried and expended in a few hours. In urban fighting the numbers might go much higher as clearing a single fortified room could use up half a dozen... repeat for a half dozen rooms in one house... fifteen houses on that side of that block ect...

[madd0ct0r]

the command and conquer variant are deployed from a backpack and chucked like a normal grenades in a parabola.
They weren't frisbee sized or styled, more like a tuna can. Some skilled users are seen being able bounce them off the ground so they roll and bounce for increased range.

I always figured it the disc just made them stack neater in the backpack magazine.

[Ahriman238]

Exploding frisbees are very cool, but not really practical. Mostly because you'd have to throw t like a discus or a frisbee to get any distance, with a flat trajectory. 95% of the time, if you can throw a frisbee at the enemy, it's a hell of a lot more practical to just shoot them. The remaining 5% being occasion you could hit a wall or somesuch and make it bounce or simply drop into the enemy. Which works much better with ball grenades.

I remember reading that in the World Wars, the Germans used stick grenades largely because of their tradition of throwing axes for sport (which I've never heard of before or since) and the British and Americans used ball grenades because the majority of people would be comfortable throwing them because of baseball/cricket. This may be apocryphal, or a minor consideration, but it does seem to make sense to design grenades around a shape people are familiar with throwing and thinking about throwing and have spent their childhoods practicing.

[Sea Skimmer]

This may be apocryphal, or a minor consideration, but it does seem to make sense to design grenades around a shape people are familiar with throwing and thinking about throwing and have spent their childhoods practicing.

Anything claiming such simple across the board is apocryphal as both sides used both types of grenades in WW1. The first British grenade for example was in fact a stick type hastily brought into service, while the Germans entered the war with grenades in service but they were all egg and rifle grenade types. The main one was the spherical Kugelhandgranate which weighed a full kilogram and could be pitched by a small engineer catapult as well as thrown. The catapult was the forerunner of the minenwerfer introduced just before the war. The classic German stick grenade was only introduced in 1915, alongside other types, in no small part because the throwing distance of the heavy Kugelhandgranate was so poor. But it had been intended for siege use by dedicated engineers, not field use by the infantry.

The allies did largely cease using stick types over time, mainly because they felt they were too bulky and expensive. The spherical Mills bomb and similar devices came to dominate allied production because they were cheap, compact and also could work with rifle grenade launchers as well as being thrown. That in and of itself was a very useful advantage.

the command and conquer variant are deployed from a backpack and chucked like a normal grenades in a parabola.

It was also specified that the user had some sort of semi powered armor throwing arm to chuck them further.

[TeufelIV]

How they are thrown was one of the big things that bugged me. You have a few options for throwing regular grenade that don't work out so well with a disk grenade.

I had seen it pop up in a few media forms mostly video games before and wondered if they could ever be effective or were strictly rule of cool.

[PeZook]

Mass Effect disc grenades were always confusing to me, because by their very nature they had to have a fiddly fuse in order to engage enemies who were behind cover. That always seemed counterproductive: oh yeah let's develop a grenade which requires the soldier to keep him/herself exposed, so that the detonation can be timed JUST RIGHT.

Instead of "out goes the pin, stand up, throw, get down, wait for the blast" you have "arm, stand up, throw, WATCH IT FLY WHILE FIDDLING WITH THE DETONATOR, detonate once it flies over the obstacle"

This sounds like a recipe to get your soldiers shot.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Mass Effect is rarely a shining paragon of common sense though (hello, lets go from nigh-unlimted ammo to these weird...thermal clips?). That being said, you can become quite good with those grenades, at least in ME1. I almost never missed...but that's because it is a video game, not real life.

[Grumman]

Mass Effect disc grenades were always confusing to me, because by their very nature they had to have a fiddly fuse in order to engage enemies who were behind cover. That always seemed counterproductive: oh yeah let's develop a grenade which requires the soldier to keep him/herself exposed, so that the detonation can be timed JUST RIGHT.

Instead of "out goes the pin, stand up, throw, get down, wait for the blast" you have "arm, stand up, throw, WATCH IT FLY WHILE FIDDLING WITH THE DETONATOR, detonate once it flies over the obstacle"

It could just be a simulation of the OICW concept. I.e. having a grenade that detonates at a programmed range, but implemented within the game as a one button action (throw/detonate) instead of a three button action (increase range, decrease range and throw).

[someone_else]

In one old and dead RPG I know, they had a concept about a "smart" frag shaped like a disk.

It was a disk designed to spin on its own when on the ground and when detonates it projects metal shards only where there are enemies, while friendlies are safe even within its dangerous range. It is supposed to blow up when used so it should propel the shards with explosive, but I have no idea on how something like this can be made anywhere near practical nor why it has to spin, even assuming IFF works as advertised.

Instead of "out goes the pin, stand up, throw, get down, wait for the blast" you have "arm, stand up, throw, WATCH IT FLY WHILE FIDDLING WITH THE DETONATOR, detonate once it flies over the obstacle"

They surely have the tech to make a grenade smart enough to detect by itself when it is close to its target.

It should work like "aim the grenade to the target for a few seconds so it locks on him/it (and maybe vibrates faintly to confirm it is armed), throw the thing, hide and wait for BOOM". Missed grenades are also reusable.

[Lord Revan]

tbh the ME3 grenades seem to be "throw and forget" types, granted it's been a while since I played the Demo but I seem to remember the Sur'kesh level having grenades avaible also the ME3 grenades seem to be cylinders not disks.

another thing is the disk type grenages might also be popular in visual media due to generally being larger and thus easier to see then more common designs.

Mass Effect is rarely a shining paragon of common sense though (hello, lets go from nigh-unlimted ammo to these weird...thermal clips?). That being said, you can become quite good with those grenades, at least in ME1. I almost never missed...but that's because it is a video game, not real life.

tbh they're really inconsistent about it, on the other hand some dialoge and codex entries suggest switch to thermal clips was fairly new but it seems totally universal and retroactive seeing as ships or races that have either lost contact with the glaxy as a whole before the switch or have minimal contact still use the clips.

[Nephtys]

Is everyone talking about an 'old and dead RPG' with disc grenades referring to Alternity? I remember vaguely the cutaway diagram of a discus with a bulbous lip, which was filled with razorblades and explosive filler on the inside edge.

[Batman]

Heck compared to what I'm used to disk shaped sounds halfway workable. You think disk is a bad shape for a grenade, try miniature stylized bat

[Sarevok]

In my mind I always thought baterangs had some kind of homing device/guidance, no one could otherwise do the insane trick shots batman regularly does.

[Batman]

Batarangs seem to have GPS locator beacons since the early 21st century (can't pin down the issue right now) but the only actually homing batarang that comes to mind is the Nintendarang from 'Batman Returns'.
Remember that I live in a world where a guy allegedly running on solar power can casually shove around planets

[Skywalker_T-65]

Which is why one can never say 'that isn't possible!' in relation to DC.

Back on topic...I could only see disc shaped grenades working in The Future (TM) since even our current tech base wouldn't allow reliable detonaters. To use the ME example...those grenades work very well at what you can expect them to do...fly in a straight line at your target. They seem to also have been bulit with exploding over their target in mind. A grenade launcher would still work better though (probably why they switched to that in ME2).

[Batman]

I don't see why our current 'pull pin, throw grenade, boom' detonators wouldn't work on disk-shaped grenades? Yes, the grenade shape itself isn't such a hot idea apparently, I get that. But what has the shape of the grenade got to do with the reliability of the detonator?

[Skywalker_T-65]

I mean, if you are trying to get the grenade to reliably go boom from any direction. The problem with a disc shape is you have no idea where it will hit. So you would need either a detonator that goes around the whole disc or several. I was talking more about how expensive and such it would be...there is no reason to build it with our current tech base since the older style is much more cheap/reliable.

EDIT: To clairfy...I don't think it would be feasible to make an impact detonator for a disc shaped grenade. At least one that would be cheap enough to replace more conventinal designs. Now if you want a detonator to make it explode over the heads of your enemy...that is perfectly possible.

[Batman]

You have no idea how real world hand grenades work, do you. You pull the pin, you throw the grenade, the thing goes boom. We're not talking about a proximity fuse or something. Pull pin, throw, 4 (or a variation thereof) seconds later-boom. Regardless of the stupidity of a disk-shaped grenade, it works just as well with one of those.

[Skywalker_T-65]

*shrugs* I'm just working off a faulty knowledge base then. I'll concede the point then.

[Elfdart]

The only advantage I can think of with a disc grenade would be the ability to stack them. Throwing them (frisbee or discus style) requires too much of a windup and worse still, unless you have time to aim carefully (unlikely in a firefight) it will usually bow sharply left or right. You'd have much more control in terms of accuracy and handiness with a stick or an egg.