Of possible interest - 40k Imperial lasgun power packs

[andrewgpaul]

Your guess is as good as mine as to whether this is canon ...

I picked up the special dice sets for 6th edition 40k, because I'm a sucker for shiny things. The tins are made to look like replica lasgun power packs, and they have the following information;

Lasgun power pack
Capacity - 97-166 discharges
Range rating: 19 megathule*
Departmento Munitorum issue
Origin: Mars

Lasgun power pack
Capacity - 135 discharges
Range rating: 19 megathule*
Departmento Munitorum issue
Origin: Vostroya

Lasgun power pack
Capacity - 144-147 discharges
Range rating: 19 megathule*
Departmento Munitorum issue
Origin: Triplex Phall

*confirm compatibility with techpriest prior to using this powerpack

So; is "range" referring to the range of the weapon? Or does it mean that "19 megathule" is a nominal rating, not a precise energy value, similar to how US mains electricity is nominally 120V, but usually varies from 114V to 126V? (thank you, Wikipedia) The latter seems more reasonable to me.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Since we're talking about energy weapons, the "megathules" ( ) here means output, for whatever the fuck a megathule is. I guess that Forge World just wanted "megajoules, but in the GRIMDARK of the future".

On your first question, if it's in the latest rulebook then it is canonical. If you can apply such a notion as canon policy to 40k lore.

[andrewgpaul]

I don't personally. Especially since the closest thing GW have to a canon policy is certainly not "if it's in the rulebook it's canon".

I know what "megathules" has been used to represent before. The point is now that it's apparently not just a measurement of energy, since there's three different powerpacks all claiming to be "19 megathules". Presumably "range" here means "in the approximate neighbourhood of".

[Ahriman238]

Millithules has been used in 40K as a radiation measure, so I'm thinking power rather than distance.

[Connor MacLeod]

Millithules has been used in 40K as a radiation measure, so I'm thinking power rather than distance.

where was that from?

[Ahriman238]

Millithules has been used in 40K as a radiation measure, so I'm thinking power rather than distance.

where was that from?

I'm relatively sure there's a mention in 'First and Only.' I am certain there is one in a DoW cutscene (high canon there, I know.)

[Connor MacLeod]

So; is "range" referring to the range of the weapon? Or does it mean that "19 megathule" is a nominal rating, not a precise energy value, similar to how US mains electricity is nominally 120V, but usually varies from 114V to 126V? (thank you, Wikipedia) The latter seems more reasonable to me.

Singe Legion of the damned I have been operating on the assumption that 'megathule' is meant to be a measure of electrical charge (as I noted in my SMB thread) in some form, so voltage range makes about as much sense as anything. Or knowing how esoteric the admech is it may have some obscure reference to the distances between something or other in the powerpack WRT storage medium.

I knwo some people have suggested 'megathule' as a measurement of range, but frankly that makes no sense. powerpack output would be only one factor in that (and components in the lasgun woudl matter as much or more in that regard.)

Besides some laspistols can use the same sorts of powerpacks as lasrifles IIRC, but they never get the range of rifles

Incidentally are there pictures of these tins? That would be interesting to see if they're meant to be actual replicas - measurement of the dimensions (for volume) might be another way to measure the amount of energy they carry.

It's also interesting that they seem to carry so many shots - far more than earlier assumed outside a few sources like the Munitorum manual.

[KlavoHunter]

Is there any information available on how QUICKLY an empty las powerpack can be recharged?

There is, after all, the sort of situation where you might go through a week's worth of autogun munitions in a single battle, whereas if you were using all lasweapons, you might not be able to recharge empties fast enough to gun down an entire Tyranid horde? *Shrug* Just a minor derail.

[Simon_Jester]

Under intense conditions you'd probably just use the same kind of ammo resupply for las weapons you would for things that shoot bullets. All that changes is that you're shipping glorified laptop batteries to the front line, instead of rifle magazines.

Recharging las weapons would normally come up in two situations. One is a 'depot maintenance' thing- where you'd have dedicated equipment for recharging them at your leisure from an electric generator. This might include systems to make sure power flow into the battery is regulated and moderate so nothing gets damaged.

The other would be 'field recharges.' Which would be kind of a desperation measure, probably something that takes a lot of lifespan off the battery, but is better than being totally out of ammunition. That really only helps much for specific roles- the big one being units cut off from the enemy. And it's totally characteristic of the Imperium to build capacities into their logistics system that only matter for units cut off and trying to do as much damage as they can before being destroyed.

If sticking the pack in a fire can trickle-charge it up to half maximum and permanently damage it over a period of half an hour, it's still better than getting killed, and marginally better even if you do get killed.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Las packs can be recharged in the field. They require (I think) a few hours exposure to sunlight, although in an emergency you can toss them in a fire and they're good in a few seconds, with all that entails about battery life. At least this is what Lexicanum says, which isn't that bad as a source of info, you know.

[KlavoHunter]

Yes, I know there's the traditional solar panel method, and the extreme fire method for emergencies. I was wondering how long you'd need if you plugged the lasgun powerpack into a wall outlet, for it to be recharged.

[Irbis]

Incidentally are there pictures of these tins? That would be interesting to see if they're meant to be actual replicas - measurement of the dimensions (for volume) might be another way to measure the amount of energy they carry.

Here?

Though, they're pretty much dice-container sized. Also, I wonder who sane came up with these "dice holders" and for what would anyone use them.

[Connor MacLeod]

Las packs can be recharged in the field. They require (I think) a few hours exposure to sunlight, although in an emergency you can toss them in a fire and they're good in a few seconds, with all that entails about battery life. At least this is what Lexicanum says, which isn't that bad as a source of info, you know.

No, you need a full day (or a full night) at least to charge the powerpack, and even then it ruins the weapon's reliability and halves the number of shots. Recharging from standard power sources takes a few hours. It's mentioned in Dark HErey, Rogue Trader, and Only War. One presumes that using solar power to charge takes even longer than the fire method.

[Connor MacLeod]

Incidentally are there pictures of these tins? That would be interesting to see if they're meant to be actual replicas - measurement of the dimensions (for volume) might be another way to measure the amount of energy they carry.

Here?

Well that worked, I managed to find all three sets on the website, and I even found a useful benchmark here

Though, they're pretty much dice-container sized. Also, I wonder who sane came up with these "dice holders" and for what would anyone use them.[/quote]

They're no better measures than trying to scale off the artwork, so why not?

[Ultonius]

Under intense conditions you'd probably just use the same kind of ammo resupply for las weapons you would for things that shoot bullets. All that changes is that you're shipping glorified laptop batteries to the front line, instead of rifle magazines.

Recharging las weapons would normally come up in two situations. One is a 'depot maintenance' thing- where you'd have dedicated equipment for recharging them at your leisure from an electric generator. This might include systems to make sure power flow into the battery is regulated and moderate so nothing gets damaged.

The other would be 'field recharges.' Which would be kind of a desperation measure, probably something that takes a lot of lifespan off the battery, but is better than being totally out of ammunition. That really only helps much for specific roles- the big one being units cut off from the enemy. And it's totally characteristic of the Imperium to build capacities into their logistics system that only matter for units cut off and trying to do as much damage as they can before being destroyed.

If sticking the pack in a fire can trickle-charge it up to half maximum and permanently damage it over a period of half an hour, it's still better than getting killed, and marginally better even if you do get killed.

Couldn't APCs and other vehicles have equipment for charging lasgun battery packs? You'd think the power required would be a small fraction of that used for propulsion or for their own lasguns. Each soldier could have two packs, keeping one in the lasgun while the other charged. This would simplify logistics, since at the cost of a small increase in fuel usage, transport of battery packs could be greatly reduced, since only replacements for those damaged or lost in battle, or worn out by repeated recharging, would be needed.

[Purple]

That is probably true for those regiments that actually have vehicles and APC's.

[Lord Revan]

That is probably true for those regiments that actually have vehicles and APC's.

and the vehicles haven't been taken out by enemy fire before the need to recharge.

[Ultonius]

Okay, conceded. I suppose I was thinking more in terms of modern armies that are largely mechanized, rather than 40K forces which are more variable. Perhaps some kind of man-portable generator could be used by foot infantry or by mechanized infantry as a back-up, but the fuel for it might equal or exceed the weight of battery packs, eliminating any advantage.

[Lord Revan]

Okay, conceded. I suppose I was thinking more in terms of modern armies that are largely mechanized, rather than 40K forces which are more variable. Perhaps some kind of man-portable generator could be used by foot infantry or by mechanized infantry as a back-up, but the fuel for it might equal or exceed the weight of battery packs, eliminating any advantage.

well the thing is that armies (even modern ones) need to plan for the "shit hits the fan" scenario and without knowing how many "standard" shots you can per pack from a lasgun, it's kind of pointless to speculate on any "normal" field recharge, since for all we knew lasguns have so many shots that only times you need to recharge on the field are the ones where portable generators aren't avaible (and that's before taking into account the logistical nightmare that is large scale operations for the IG)

[Irbis]

They're no better measures than trying to scale off the artwork, so why not?

I meant the skull holding things. I can't think of any useful application for them... Except, maybe GK army drone markers...?

[andrewgpaul]

Incidentally are there pictures of these tins? That would be interesting to see if they're meant to be actual replicas - measurement of the dimensions (for volume) might be another way to measure the amount of energy they carry.

They're 85 x 103 x 20mm.

[Simon_Jester]

well the thing is that armies (even modern ones) need to plan for the "shit hits the fan" scenario and without knowing how many "standard" shots you can per pack from a lasgun, it's kind of pointless to speculate on any "normal" field recharge, since for all we knew lasguns have so many shots that only times you need to recharge on the field are the ones where portable generators aren't avaible (and that's before taking into account the logistical nightmare that is large scale operations for the IG)

Portable chargers might also be one of those things that are available for some types of lasgun ammo, but not others. Or made on some worlds, but not others. "I'm sorry, Tanith First/Valhallan 597th/whatever, your lasguns aren't compatible with our generators" is probably something the Munitorium has to say a lot, even assuming such generators exist.

But it's not like this seriously inconveniences the Guard compared to a normal military force in real life. Real armies can't exactly recharge their bullets. Once ammo is gone, it's gone forever and someone will have to make new rounds- even though you could reload them into the old magazine if you wanted, they'd still be new rounds.

So any degree of field-rechargeability gives the Guard a huge advantage, except in very intense fighting where there's no time to recharge before being overrun, or offensive siege-type warfare where the supply lines are very reliable.

Depot-rechargeability is good too. Even if you have to send the empty batteries back to a regimental supply depot to be recharged on big racks, it still reduces the overall supply burden a bit. Although for Guard units that resemble modern mechanized forces, infantry small arms ammunition isn't a big part of their logistics tail- most of the weight goes into fuel and artillery ammo.

[Connor MacLeod]

Incidentally are there pictures of these tins? That would be interesting to see if they're meant to be actual replicas - measurement of the dimensions (for volume) might be another way to measure the amount of energy they carry.

They're 85 x 103 x 20mm.

That's smaller than I exepcted. I tried doing scaling off those pictures (using the dice scaled to hand) and I got considerably bigger, something like 14-16 cm to a side, which yielded a output around 500-1000 kj for a powerpack. With the dimensions you provided, its more like 200 kj or so.

So from a 200 kj powerpack (rechargable) you get around 1-2 kj per shot, while with my initial idea you get something like 3-10 kj depending on how many shots you marry to which power figure. I'll note being close to a MJ is more in line with stuff implied in other sources (like a lasgun emptying its magazine being equal to a tube charge in one of the Ghost's novels).

Still, with the right lasgun setup, 1-2 kj is basically like a modern assault rifle, but you have many times the ammo capacity for something only a bit bigger than a AR magazine too.

They're no better measures than trying to scale off the artwork, so why not?

I meant the skull holding things. I can't think of any useful application for them... Except, maybe GK army drone markers...?

Extra tidbits to increase the price, I suppose

[Connor MacLeod]

well the thing is that armies (even modern ones) need to plan for the "shit hits the fan" scenario and without knowing how many "standard" shots you can per pack from a lasgun, it's kind of pointless to speculate on any "normal" field recharge, since for all we knew lasguns have so many shots that only times you need to recharge on the field are the ones where portable generators aren't avaible (and that's before taking into account the logistical nightmare that is large scale operations for the IG)

They probably could rig up some means of recharging from the vehicle, but I'd bet its something that hooks up to it rather than being directly integrated into the design. And given how armoured/mechanised units are deployed, they probably tend to be tied more heavily to their logistical base as a rule, so putting in some sort of inherent recharge capability would be superfluous (they'd need to go back for fuel, so why not go back for ammo?)

We know they have portable generators for lasweapons - Forge World and the Cities of Death/Planetstrike supplements mention them IIRC.

As far as logistics goes, lasweapons being rechargable eases up on logistics somewhat, but the fact they still need fuel, solid projectile ammo and the like (and often for a variety of weapons, autoguns, shotguns, heavy bolter, autocannon, rocket/grenade launchers, etc.) they aren't totally immune to it either.

And before circa 3rd/4th edition, plasma and melta weapons oculd run off powerpacks too, whereas nowadays they're just more a futuristic flamethrower with their own magic ammo requirements.

It's always kinda made me wonder why some sort of 'multilaser' weapon wasn't more prevalant.

Okay, conceded. I suppose I was thinking more in terms of modern armies that are largely mechanized, rather than 40K forces which are more variable. Perhaps some kind of man-portable generator could be used by foot infantry or by mechanized infantry as a back-up, but the fuel for it might equal or exceed the weight of battery packs, eliminating any advantage.

They really don't need to be greatly mechanised in most cases because in order to be deployed (at least offensively) they need to be delivered by starship and landed by shuttle/dropship/drop pod. Which gives the IG a degree of flexibility as it is (until they're landed, of course.) I think people tend to forget that without the Navy for transport, the IG a purely defensive army, so the IG not having a large number of vehicles organic to their setup (or air forces) tends to be moot (except for vs debates, which tends to create rather odd, highyl skewed scenarios that more likely wouldn't show up in regular practice anyhow.)

And Garrison forces can always requisition and utilize local vehicles for transport, so on the defensive they're not always stuck 'on foot' either.

And as I noted, they do have power generators example1 and example2 If we can make protable generators its likely they can. (I am sure there's some source somewhere listing them anyhow in all those novels, if not for lasguns, I'm just too lazy to remember.)