Dr Who Season Finale

[Hillary]

I am sure most people here do. It started out as an educational show by doing historical stories. They however jumped the shark the next episode when the Daleks first appeared.

It was never intended to be solely an educational show - the intention was to roughly alternate between historical and sci-fi.

Indeed - that way they could get a bigger budget

IIRC the last one was the Highlanders in Patrick Troughton's era. In the 1960s, before focussing more on a sci fi bent. As such I think its pointless to appeal to tradition that it started as a kids show, when its clearly moved beyond that, as a defense to people who find the show's quality has deteriorated.

It's never "moved beyond" being a kids show - that's what it started as, that's what it remained until 1989, and that's what it resumed as. The fact that it's not the Teletubbies doesn't change that.

I wouldn't really agree with that - it was always a family show, appealing to a broad spectrum of ages, rather than a pure children's show. I think that is partly the reason behind its enduring appeal - it's a show you watched as a kid and never really grew out of like, say, Grange Hill or Blue Peter.

[mr friendly guy]

It's never "moved beyond" being a kids show - that's what it started as, that's what it remained until 1989, and that's what it resumed as. The fact that it's not the Teletubbies doesn't change that.

I am going to have to disagree there. Its more of a family show. Like Hillary I view this as a show which you watched as a kid, and then when you watch it again as an adult it becomes deeper, as you notice things because you are more mature. For me it was mainly in the sense the plots made more sense, however there were also some social / political references (to the events during that time) which a kid most likely would not have understood.

In fact in a lot of the commentary, some of the classic episodes made a jibe against political events of their day. For example the Sun Makers with the evil aliens who tax (the Usurians, yeah I know) had an alien looking like the British chancellor of the Exchequer with the prominent eyebrows. A kid is going to look at it and see just another alien the Doctor vanquishes. An adult can see the subtle jibe against the politicians.

Another obvious one is the Happiness Patrol - which even as a kid I understood was a surreal attack against totalaliarianism. However on watching the commentary it seemed a lot of British people at the time understood that the main character Helen A, was a sick parody of Margaret Thatcher, who was prime minister at the time.

So in summary, it was a show which has things for the kids, but also things for the adults. Whether its now something just for the kids, I will leave that to Thanas to argue since he called it a glorified kids show.

[Havok]

They however jumped the shark the next episode when the Daleks first appeared.

STOP USING THIS FUCKING TERM IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO APPLY IT CORRECTLY OR WHAT IT MEANS. ASSHOLE.

[mr friendly guy]

Nitpick much? Fine then. It was a bad choice of phrase in the sense that the show didn't decline in quality according to my own personal opinion , although its creator Sydney Newman certainly did think it got worse because he hated the Daleks. However my statement still conveyed that the show changed from its purely educational routes right away, as evidenced by the arguments the producer Verity Lambert had with Newman regarding the Daleks, with the latter articulating that he didn't want bug eye monsters on Who.

As such the main point still stands, thats its pointless to appeal to DW's tradition as starting as a children's show, when its original idea as an educational show for kids was discarded in its very first season in favour of bug eye monsters.

[Havok]

One show does not constitute 'roots'. Fucking hell, talk about nitpicking. Doctor Who was never an educational show if only ONE out of ten million episodes was meant to be educational.

And it's not a nitpick, it is a pet peeve.

It may not have been a children's show on the lines of Barney or other nonsense, but it certainly was and is a family show that your kids could watch with you or without you.
It got some weird sort of need for maturity the same way comic books did; It's fan base grew up, [Stark]and got fat[/Stark], but never stopped being fans.

[mr friendly guy]

One show does not constitute 'roots'. Fucking hell, talk about nitpicking. Doctor Who was never an educational show if only ONE out of ten million episodes was meant to be educational.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
It does constitute roots when it was the original plan of the show was to be an educational show.

Since you obviously read my earlier posts you would know they still did these "pure" historical "education" episodes into the Troughton era, so I don't know how you got ONLY one episode was meant to be educational. Wait, you are going to say its hyperbole right?

In fact, if you want to go down the route, lets have a look at the first two seasons
The first season half the storylines were educational (ie historical) in tone - An unearthly child, Marco Polo, The Aztecs, The Reign of Terror
The second season 4/9 of the storylines would fit semi educational theme, mainly in history base - Planet of the giants (educating about insects, ecosystems etc), The Romans, The Crusade, The Time Meddler (yes, its talks quite a lot about British history, I learnt about the Battle of Hastings from reading about it in Doctor Who )

As time went by they focussed less on these semi educational themes. Which is kind of my main point.

linky

After the series had been conceptualised, Newman initially approached Don Taylor and then Shaun Sutton to produce it, although both declined. He then decided on his former production assistant at ABC, Verity Lambert, who had never produced, written or directed but readily accepted his offer. As Lambert became the youngest — and only female — drama producer at the BBC, there were some doubts as to Newman's choice, but she became a great success in the role. Even Newman clashed with her on occasion, however, particularly over the inclusion of the alien Dalek creatures on the programme. Newman had not wanted any "bug-eyed monsters" in the show, and he regarded the Daleks as the epitome of such things, but after their huge success, he generally left Lambert to her own devices. Later in the show's run, in 1966 he took a more hands-on role again in the changeover between the First and Second Doctors. After his time at the BBC, though, as the series drifted further away from his initial semi-educational concepts, he became critical of its tone and production.

So my main point stands, that the show has changed over the years from some of its original premises. You can criticise whether its classified as jumping the shark (and arguably its creator Sydney Newman did feel this way, even though the term didn't come about until the late 1970s), however its tangential to the main point I was making, ergo thats why its called nitpicking.

And it's not a nitpick, it is a pet peeve.

Don't be obtuse. An action can have multiple characteristics. It may be pet peeve of yours, but accusing me of misusing the term jumping the shark is tangential to the main point I made which I have repeatedly stated. Its even more ridiculous when DW's own creator arguable felt that way (although I freely admit, because only its tone changed, and its quality did not decline, I wouldn't have seen it strictly speaking as jumping the shark).

In case you miss my main point, here it is again - Its tradition was to be an educational show, its moved away from that. Thus its pointless to appeal to Who's tradition to justify whether you like / hate its current form. In this case it was Satori's defense of NuWho by saying it started as a children's show, in reply to Thanas feeling that its become a glorified kids show.

It may not have been a children's show on the lines of Barney or other nonsense, but it certainly was and is a family show that your kids could watch with you or without you.
It got some weird sort of need for maturity the same way comic books did; It's fan base grew up, [Stark]and got fat[/Stark], but never stopped being fans.

You will of course note in my reply to Seaforth I did argue along those lines - that it has something for both kids and the adults.

[The Yosemite Bear]

personally I thought that the angels were going to send them back to 1st century briton resulting in Rory being a Solier/Surgeon stationed at Hadrian's Wall......

[Hillary]

It does constitute roots when it was the original plan of the show was to be an educational show.

Again, MFG, this isn't actually the case. It was supposed to alternate between historical and sci-fi stories. I don't know where you get the idea that it was meant to be PURELY historical. By having different genres, the show was able to get funding from different BBC departments which gave it, in total, a bigger budget than it would otherwise have had.

In short, you could never really call the historical stories Doctor Who's roots.

[mr friendly guy]

It does constitute roots when it was the original plan of the show was to be an educational show.

Again, MFG, this isn't actually the case. It was supposed to alternate between historical and sci-fi stories. I don't know where you get the idea that it was meant to be PURELY historical. By having different genres, the show was able to get funding from different BBC departments which gave it, in total, a bigger budget than it would otherwise have had.

In short, you could never really call the historical stories Doctor Who's roots.

This was my recollection from reading Who books about the goals of Sydney Newman. Not so much that it was purely historical, but it was meant as educational and using historical stories was an easy way to do it. But I concede my recollection could be wrong. So I will rephrase it to semi educational stories eg historical stories. However even if the root was a mix of sci fi and historical, its clearly changed since the Troughton era when they concentrated basically on pure sci fi, whereas previous historical stories the sci fi elements was predominantly only the Doctor, TARDIS, and time travel (with the exception of the Time Meddler). Clearly Who over the years has changed from this mix of sci fi and historical stories to "pure" sci fi stories. Which is kind of the point that its changed from its roots and so its silly to appeal to them to justify whether you like or hate NuWho.

[Hillary]

It does constitute roots when it was the original plan of the show was to be an educational show.

Again, MFG, this isn't actually the case. It was supposed to alternate between historical and sci-fi stories. I don't know where you get the idea that it was meant to be PURELY historical. By having different genres, the show was able to get funding from different BBC departments which gave it, in total, a bigger budget than it would otherwise have had.

In short, you could never really call the historical stories Doctor Who's roots.

This was my recollection from reading Who books about the goals of Sydney Newman. Not so much that it was purely historical, but it was meant as educational and using historical stories was an easy way to do it. But I concede my recollection could be wrong. So I will rephrase it to semi educational stories eg historical stories. However even if the root was a mix of sci fi and historical, its clearly changed since the Troughton era when they concentrated basically on pure sci fi, whereas previous historical stories the sci fi elements was predominantly only the Doctor, TARDIS, and time travel (with the exception of the Time Meddler). Clearly Who over the years has changed from this mix of sci fi and historical stories to "pure" sci fi stories.

Agree with that - essentially the viewing figures weren't good enough for the historical stories so they eventually dropped them. Apparently they had a go at comedy at one stage (The Aztecs IIRC, but I may be wrong there) and one of the epiodes of The Masterplan was an Xmas spoof plonked right in the middle of the story. Most bizarre.

But Doctor Who has been a very changeable beast over the years, the different Doctors bringing very different personalities to the role and the various producers and writers have all brought their own style. I quite like this season to date. The plots don't really stand up to scutiny but then they never really did.

I appreciate it isn't everyone's cup of tea though.

[mr friendly guy]

Yeah, Who has had numerous changes over the years. Pertwee's era they wanted to make the Doctor earthbound for some reason, which was the opposite of the concept of the Doctor travelling through time and space. Yet these classical episodes had great ratings. Other things are the Hincliffe era where he wanted to make the show more "serious" and horror themes crept in. Its reinvented itself over the years, but sometimes the reinvention isn't to everyone's liking.

A quick google search on DW and education gave me this info.

The stories set in the past were to teach kids about history, while the space-bound tales were to provide bite-sized facts about science. This is why the Doctor’s first two companions were a history teacher and science teacher.

Well I guess the futuristic stories scrapped that idea about providing bite sized facts about science when they opted for bug eye monsters. And it hasn't looked back, and it shouldn't.

[Hillary]

Yeah, Who has had numerous changes over the years. Pertwee's era they wanted to make the Doctor earthbound for some reason, which was the opposite of the concept of the Doctor travelling through time and space. Yet these classical episodes had great ratings. Other things are the Hincliffe era where he wanted to make the show more "serious" and horror themes crept in. Its reinvented itself over the years, but sometimes the reinvention isn't to everyone's liking.

The Earthbound bit was, as usual, a budgetary decision. Much cheaper than a set for a different planet each time. The Hinchcliffe era is my personal favourite of old Who.

A quick google search on DW and education gave me this info.

The stories set in the past were to teach kids about history, while the space-bound tales were to provide bite-sized facts about science. This is why the Doctor’s first two companions were a history teacher and science teacher.

Well I guess the futuristic stories scrapped that idea about providing bite sized facts about science when they opted for bug eye monsters. And it hasn't looked back, and it shouldn't.

I'd forgotten that fact about Ian and Barbara being teachers for that reason - I wasn't aware that the space bound tales were to teach science though.

I think it having so many reinventions is the secret behind its longevity. Being able to completely change the face of the main character, whilst him remaining the same person, gives it a new boost of energy every few years. The fact that the supporting cast is also regularly changed and updated also helps. For all its many faults, it remains one of my favourite TV shows.

[Havok]

One show does not constitute 'roots'. Fucking hell, talk about nitpicking. Doctor Who was never an educational show if only ONE out of ten million episodes was meant to be educational.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
It does constitute roots when it was the original plan of the show was to be an educational show.

Since you obviously read my earlier posts you would know they still did these "pure" historical "education" episodes into the Troughton era, so I don't know how you got ONLY one episode was meant to be educational. Wait, you are going to say its hyperbole right?

In fact, if you want to go down the route, lets have a look at the first two seasons
The first season half the storylines were educational (ie historical) in tone - An unearthly child, Marco Polo, The Aztecs, The Reign of Terror
The second season 4/9 of the storylines would fit semi educational theme, mainly in history base - Planet of the giants (educating about insects, ecosystems etc), The Romans, The Crusade, The Time Meddler (yes, its talks quite a lot about British history, I learnt about the Battle of Hastings from reading about it in Doctor Who )

As time went by they focussed less on these semi educational themes. Which is kind of my main point.

Yeah, the alien Time Traveler and his granddaughter travel to 100,000 BC in their Time Machine to rediscover fire for man... Wow I feel more historically knowledgeable just writing the sentence. "educational" my fucking ass.

It's even worse how you are going "educational (ie historical)" I mean, talk about obtuse... the show is even less historically factual than it is educational but then if Doctor Who's first season is your idea of education and historical knowledge, well then that kinda explains some things.

So my main point stands, that the show has changed over the years from some of its original premises. You can criticise whether its classified as jumping the shark (and arguably its creator Sydney Newman did feel this way, even though the term didn't come about until the late 1970s), however its tangential to the main point I was making, ergo thats why its called nitpicking.

You are a dumbass. I was saying that my annoyance at your use of the term incorrectly is a pet peeve, but you did apparently get your education from Doctor Who U so...

And it didn't change over "the years", it changed in the SECOND SHOW. Geezus, you are writing out exactly what happened and you are still arguing about it.

And it's not a nitpick, it is a pet peeve.

Don't be obtuse. An action can have multiple characteristics. It may be pet peeve of yours, but accusing me of misusing the term jumping the shark is tangential to the main point I made which I have repeatedly stated. Its even more ridiculous when DW's own creator arguable felt that way (although I freely admit, because only its tone changed, and its quality did not decline, I wouldn't have seen it strictly speaking as jumping the shark).

In case you miss my main point, here it is again - Its tradition was to be an educational show, its moved away from that. Thus its pointless to appeal to Who's tradition to justify whether you like / hate its current form. In this case it was Satori's defense of NuWho by saying it started as a children's show, in reply to Thanas feeling that its become a glorified kids show.

OK, even you said it jumped the shark in the second show, no matter how badly you misuse the term, YOU recognize that after one show, it was complete different, so how can you sit there and say "tradition". The word you are looking for is INTENT, you tool. Geezuz.

I guess the show never explained the difference between those two words for you.

[mr friendly guy]

Yeah, the alien Time Traveler and his granddaughter travel to 100,000 BC in their Time Machine to rediscover fire for man... Wow I feel more historically knowledgeable just writing the sentence. "educational" my fucking ass.

Oh noes, sarcasm triumphs facts every time. Oh wait, it doesn't.

You can't dispute the fact its creators wanted it to be educational which is pretty much listed in almost every fucking resource on Who's history, so you whine about its level of historical accuracy. No one disputes that a sci fi show can't demonstrate as much historical accuracy as a documentary, but they attempted to educate. Hence why you had the Doctor visit historical events and cultures etc.

The fact is, you were called on it, that you didn't realise Who started out as an educational show, and now you just desperately trying to save face. Too bad, you have less of it than Michael Jackson's after visits to the plastic surgeons. Fuck, even if Verity Lambert and Sydney Newman were resurrected and told you it was meant to be educational and you would still argue until you are blue in the face. But thats ok, you obviously know more about the show's preconception than the people who created it. How can I dispute with such a learned man.

It's even worse how you are going "educational (ie historical)" I mean, talk about obtuse... the show is even less historically factual than it is educational but then if Doctor Who's first season is your idea of education and historical knowledge, well then that kinda explains some things.

1. I mentioned history stories were easier to use as an educational tool because they could throw in things like historical dates, give an example of how people lived, focus in on historical events etc. The futuristic episodes were meant to illustrate scientific concepts for the kids. Thats why the Doctor's first companions were a science and history teacher.
2. Its the creator's idea moron. I prefer it as a pure entertainment show, however...I don't have a time machine to go back to 1963 and tell them that. So unfortunately I have to let history pass as it should, in which case the show started off with educational purposes in mind. But please, explain how almost every resource on the history of Who magically thinks it was meant to start out as an educational show.

And it didn't change over "the years", it changed in the SECOND SHOW. Geezus, you are writing out exactly what happened and you are still arguing about it.

Did you ignore my whole point in favour of making a new argument? In fact didn't you accuse me of misusing the term jump the shark in describing how the show changed in the second episode. Oh wait you did.
To wit

They however jumped the shark the next episode when the Daleks first appeared.

STOP USING THIS FUCKING TERM IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO APPLY IT CORRECTLY OR WHAT IT MEANS. ASSHOLE.

Now you agree with me that it changed in the second episode. A change of course which only happened because they had no other scripts available. Thanks for playing. But I guess things like details aren't your strong point, and you would say anything to score points even if it contradicts what you said earlier.

OK, even you said it jumped the shark in the second show, no matter how badly you misuse the term, YOU recognize that after one show, it was complete different, so how can you sit there and say "tradition". The word you are looking for is INTENT, you tool. Geezuz.

I guess the show never explained the difference between those two words for you.

How can I say tradition? Hmm, let me think about that. I know. How about this one? Maybe because they still did a mixture of these semi educational episodes (as opposed to all episodes being educational) throughout the first two seasons, and were still doing these up to and including the fourth season. Maybe thats why I can say it was traditional for Who at that point. A point I might add you can't have failed to notice because your very post I am replying to contains quotes showing me saying things to that effect. But then if you have to ask a question where the answer is in the very post you quoted , well then that kinda explains some things.

[Havok]

Oh for fucks sake...

The INTENT of the show was to be educational, the ACTUAL SHOW and the TRADITION it establishes was one of Sci-fi/fantasy, NOT education.

Jumping the Shark means that a show has passed a point where it has become irrecoverably mired in shit writing and quality. i.e. When the fucking Fonz jumped a LITERAL shark on water skies in Hawaii in his fucking leather jacket, greased hair and SHORTS. Now as cool as that may be for the character, it signaled that Happy Days had reached a point when it just had zero quality left.

Doctor Who added alien bad guys to a show about a TIME TRAVELING ALIEN in the 2ND EPISODE. (P.S. That were actually written and created before the first serial even fucking aired)
That is not Jumping the Shark, you complete fucking idiot, that is creating the tradition that you are so painfully trying to pin as "educational (ie historical)".

I know what the INTENT of the show's creators were you fucking nutsack, I am just not so stupid as to think that their INTENT became the TRADITION that the show established as you so idiotically keep claiming. The historical events the show used became tangential to the Doctor doing Doctor stuff in a clever way. Nobody watched the fucking show to see the history, they watched it to see what the Doctor would do.
THAT is the TRADITION Doctor Who established, despite it's INTENT.

And I love how you started putting quotes around historical and education and started prefacing educational with semi.

[mr friendly guy]

Oh for fucks sake...

Oh this should be good. Not.

The INTENT of the show was to be educational, the ACTUAL SHOW and the TRADITION it establishes was one of Sci-fi/fantasy, NOT education.

Yet you conveniently ignore all evidence of its attempts to be educational. You can argue how well it succeeded in educating, but its quite clear in its own way that was what it was trying to do in the early days. But hey, Havok will argue with the creators till he is blue in the face, he knew better than they did.

Jumping the Shark means that a show has passed a point where it has become irrecoverably mired in shit writing and quality. i.e. When the fucking Fonz jumped a LITERAL shark on water skies in Hawaii in his fucking leather jacket, greased hair and SHORTS. Now as cool as that may be for the character, it signaled that Happy Days had reached a point when it just had zero quality left.

In my reply to you I admitted straight away it wasn't the best term because it implies a decrease in quality. However its quite clear both you and Seaforth understood I was using the term to indicate that the show changed. You never attempt to dispute the show changed until I pointed out if that's all your criticism, its a nitpick and tangential to my point... that the show changed. Then its almost like, quick I need to pick another fight.

Doctor Who added alien bad guys to a show about a TIME TRAVELING ALIEN in the 2ND EPISODE. (P.S. That were actually written and created before the first serial even fucking aired)
That is not Jumping the Shark, you complete fucking idiot, that is creating the tradition that you are so painfully trying to pin as "educational (ie historical)".

Ignoring for a moment they wanted to edit the serial because of the bug eye monsters, but had no time and no other script. Thats the best you got? Bringing up the Jumping the shark definition when I already conceded it wasn't the best term but totally tangential to the point. Talking about beating a dead horse because you have no other case.

I know what the INTENT of the show's creators were you fucking nutsack,

Sure you did buddy, after you were called out on it. We believe you. BTW I know someone who knows someone who can get their hands a gazillion dollars, but first we need you to give us all your assets and we will give you half the share.

I am just not so stupid as to think that their INTENT became the TRADITION that the show established as you so idiotically keep claiming.

I backed up my claims with the lists of episodes and even going so far as to explain how they were educational. I even put a delineating year to show when this particularly tradition ended. You however have no case other than putting your hands in your ears going "I can't hear you." Oh, and jerking off to the definition of jumping the shark of course.

The historical events the show used became tangential to the Doctor doing Doctor stuff in a clever way. Nobody watched the fucking show to see the history, they watched it to see what the Doctor would do.

No shit Sherlock. Really? Hey you don't suppose thats why they stopped doing historical ones where the Doctor survives the historical event, and now do episodes where there is some alien menace in the historical episode, because these get better ratings. All this of course just proves my point that they changed.

THAT is the TRADITION Doctor Who established, despite it's INTENT.

Lets put this in Havok speech because it doesn't penetrate your thick head.
The show had MORE THAN ONE tradition, which included attempting to be educational and the "Doctor doing Doctor stuff in a clever way". They obviously kept the latter but ditched the former.

You see in Havok land, he can't keep in his head around multiple concepts at the same time, so if a statement reflects a pet peeve, it can't also be a nitpick, and if the show has more than one aspect, well they simply cannot co-exist. It must be one of the other. What's that fallacy called again?

Yes Havok, DW also had other traditions like "Doctor travels around in a TARDIS" which was ditched in the 1970s to make the Doctor earthbound. Quick, the tradition the show established was the Doctor doing stuff in a clever doctor way, and not having any time / space travel. The fact I even have to even fucking state something can have more than one aspect is quite troubling.

And I love how you started putting quotes around historical and education and started prefacing educational with semi.

You mean like how you say only one show in many was meant to be educational and then kept quiet when I listed all the others. Or how when you said it was meant to be a family show and then kept quiet when I pointed out I didn't disagree with that and said the same thing several posts above yours.