Mass Alien immigration to the US

[Darth Lucifer]

The Lizards I was referring to were Turtledoves, btw.

I re-read above. Ha ha.

Still, I can see how someone could see the Visitors as more relatable, but only on the surface, with all their "WE ARE YOUR FRIENDS" propaganda and faux-sincerity complete with female officers wearing peach colored lingerie under their tight red uniforms. Stephen was such a schmoozer to Eleanor Dupres as well. Plus, one of the Visitors even became smoking buddies with Daniel Bernstein...

~Mooouuuuuusssiiieeee? Mousie?~

[NoXion]

What makes you think rolling out the welcome mat for invasive species is a good idea? Take a moment to consider the kind of damage that terrestrial species, such as rabbits or cats, can do to ecosystems where they have no competition or no predators.

You seem to be forgetting that we are talking about several intelligent species here. This means that there is an opportunity for a dialogue, rather than murderous paranoia. Thus even if they are heavier breeders than us, it doesn't matter because we can deal with them on relatively equal terms.

I've never seen the TV series but the Alien Nation feature film explicitly points out the problems that humans are already running into with the newcomers. There's a scene where an interviewee says something along the lines of "How am I supposed to compete with someone who's stronger than me, who learns faster than me?"

I'd say the trick is to realise that life isn't a zero-sum game, with atomised individuals competing against each other in a war of all against all. There are plenty of other humans who are physically stronger and quicker to learn things than I am, does that mean I will be consumed in some Darwinian rat-race? No, because we live in mass societies and are interdependent with each other. I see no reason why 11.1 million aliens cannot be integrated with the rest of us.

Alien invaders landing on earth in large numbers could actually be an existential threat to Mankind.

They're not an invasion force. They're unfortunate victims of circumstance. Did you read the OP at all?

I'm not sure there's anything moral or ethical about setting yourself up for extinction, but even if there were, I'd happily toss morality and ethics out the window if I thought it would ensure the survival of my species. Sorry if that twists your panties in a knot, I guess.

Except that you have nothing to suggest that the aliens pose an existential threat, beyond the kind of fearful swivel-eyed lunacy that would make General Jack D. Ripper's threat assessments look positively normal.

[Darth Lucifer]

Gosh, he sounds like just like a Purist, LOLOLOL

[Dominarch's Hope]

If they outbreed and outcompete us, then the only way to prevent being displaced is to outfight them.


So the Visitor "V" guys might be the ones that end up getting brutally slaughtered in a xenocidal rage. The others? Maybe not.


Prawnbros mostly behave themselves.

[gizmojumpjet]

Which I bet had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they breed like, well, rabits, and were introduced pretty much uncontrolled. Guess what-different scenario. The aliens come conveniently prepackaged in crashed starships so yeah, we can pretty much dictate how and when they're released into the wild. Also, stupid animal vs human-level intelligent species. Slightly inaccurate comparison?

The implication of this statement is that we will in some way sequester the alien newcomers until we see fit to release them from whatever sequestration we impose on them. Thank you for supporting my point that this entire scenario presents mankind with serious risk management issues, and that the first step in the process would not be to immediately show the aliens how to bus tables and run cement mixers!

Companies are actually run by competent people for a change and the prawns need their own pro sports leagues?

That's certainly a possibility, but if you can't see any downsides to the scenario I think you're either being intentionally obtuse or have actually suffered a brain injury at some point.

As evidenced by...absolutely nothing in the movie. In fact, I don't remember if there were any Prawn young born on Earth at all or if their kids came on the ship with the rest of the population.

I don't see anywhere in the scenario that mankind has the benefit of having watched the movies, do you? What I do see is 11 million diverse aliens landing at various points around North America about which humanity knows nothing at all. Do you honestly think this would result in anything other than a generalized freak-out? What do you think will be required in order to find out enough about these visitors to determine whether or not trying to integrate them into human society is a good idea? You've already suggested keeping them locked in their ships. For how long might that go on? What will we do while they are locked on their ships? Are they better boiled or braised? What if they do not wish to remain locked in their ships? What if their ships are damaged to such an extent that keeping them locked aboard would endanger their lives? Do they go better with a red wine, or with a white? Do we build camps for them of some sort? What would the nature of these camps be, and where would we locate them? How long do they keep in the fridge? If we can have a dialog with them, how do we verify the veracity of whatever it is they tell us about themselves?

As for the superior intellect, since that apparently doesn't seem to work all that well for humans, who at least know how to work the system, err-no, not particularly worried.

Yeah, our big brains are pretty worthless, which is why we still live in caves. Oh, wait-

We have to something with them, and trying to integrate them into society doesn't seem like such a bad idea. Especially as killing them off is unlikely to sit well with their species if they ever come looking for the crashed ships, what with them being capable of casual interstellar travel and so, you know, seriously able to ruin our day, so showing them we were nice to their people sounds like a pretty damned good idea.

Integrating them into society might not be a bad idea, it might be the worst idea ever. A process would have to be put into place to make these decisions, and we would have to manage the newcomers in some way while that process takes place. As some of my questions above should make clear, this management process might not be all ponies and kittens for everyone.

I'm really not all that worried about what will be 1000 years from now because I doubt even I will remain in print that long, but I'm sorry, you're essentially basing your predictions of doom for mankind on...rabbits.

Hey, I won't be alive in 1000 year either. None of us will, so why should we care about anything at all? Oh, that's right, because other people who live in the future will have to live with the consequences of our actions! So maybe before letting 11 million extraterrestrial aliens loose on the planet we should do an excruciatingly thorough risk management analysis?

[Ahriman238]

The implication of this statement is that we will in some way sequester the alien newcomers until we see fit to release them from whatever sequestration we impose on them. Thank you for supporting my point that this entire scenario presents mankind with serious risk management issues, and that the first step in the process would not be to immediately show the aliens how to bus tables and run cement mixers!

Umm, yes? We discussed quarantining the aliens in the short term, at least long enough to make sure they aren't carry deadly diseases, will be killed by earth diseases and so we can figure out roughly who these people are and what they're all about at the very beginning of the thread. It's probably also a good idea to let the hysteric paranoia and glee on our side die down a bit. Then we collectively moved on to the "now what?" stage of this thought experiment. Which in your case, seemed to be butcher and eat them.

That's certainly a possibility, but if you can't see any downsides to the scenario I think you're either being intentionally obtuse or have actually suffered a brain injury at some point.

Now who is being deliberately obtuse? Of course there are going to be problems, just not the sort of problems that call humanity's survival into question, as you keep saying.

What I do see is 11 million diverse aliens landing at various points around North America about which humanity knows nothing at all. Do you honestly think this would result in anything other than a generalized freak-out? What do you think will be required in order to find out enough about these visitors to determine whether or not trying to integrate them into human society is a good idea? You've already suggested keeping them locked in their ships. For how long might that go on?

Again, people will freak out, which is why short-term separation is a good thing. I hope we're past thinking indefinite segregation can solve any problem at all though. I'm thinking extensive interviews with the aliens and examination of their technology, pretty much like what happened in Alien Nation. I'd say an absolute minimum of 6 weeks, maybe as long as two years.

What will we do while they are locked on their ships?

Ask questions, of the aliens and ourselves and hopefully come up with some answers.

What if they do not wish to remain locked in their ships? What if their ships are damaged to such an extent that keeping them locked aboard would endanger their lives?

The first is a problem only with the unknown Greys, the Visitors have nearly everything they need on their ships and little desire to mingle, while the Prawns and the Newcomers at landing are so docile that preventing exploitation of them will be a serious concern. Getting them to stay in one area will not. We can deal with the latter problem if it arises, perhaps with the camps you seem so excited over.

If we can have a dialog with them, how do we verify the veracity of whatever it is they tell us about themselves?

Asking the others about each other would be a start. It will be hard to check up on things, even if we can crack computer access, could we trust any data we got?

Are they better boiled or braised? Do they go better with a red wine, or with a white? How long do they keep in the fridge?

You sir, are a very disturbed specimen of humanity.

Yeah, our big brains are pretty worthless, which is why we still live in caves. Oh, wait-

Not what he meant and you know it. Is it your experience that the most intelligent and deserving of people get ahead in life, irrespective of health, gender, ethnicity, religion, office politics, family connections, money and relationship to the boss? I'm really happy for you if it is, that's something we should all aspire to, but it's not the world I live in.

Integrating them into society might not be a bad idea, it might be the worst idea ever. A process would have to be put into place to make these decisions, and we would have to manage the newcomers in some way while that process takes place. As some of my questions above should make clear, this management process might not be all ponies and kittens for everyone.

Oh don't say something intelligent and reasonable, you're going to spoil the image you've been cultivating in this thread.

Yes, it will take some doing to figure things out. Yes, there are going to be a lot of factors consider. I do hope whether or not the people in distress look tasty is not going to be a factor in any decision.

Hey, I won't be alive in 1000 year either. None of us will, so why should we care about anything at all? Oh, that's right, because other people who live in the future will have to live with the consequences of our actions! So maybe before letting 11 million extraterrestrial aliens loose on the planet we should do an excruciatingly thorough risk management analysis?

A sad strawman, your image as a rabid idiot is back on track.

[Batman]

Which I bet had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they breed like, well, rabits, and were introduced pretty much uncontrolled. Guess what-different scenario. The aliens come conveniently prepackaged in crashed starships so yeah, we can pretty much dictate how and when they're released into the wild. Also, stupid animal vs human-level intelligent species. Slightly inaccurate comparison?

The implication of this statement is that we will in some way sequester the alien newcomers until we see fit to release them from whatever sequestration we impose on them. Thank you for supporting my point that this entire scenario presents mankind with serious risk management issues,

How the hell does this support there being serious risk management issues?

and that the first step in the process would not be to immediately show the aliens how to bus tables and run cement mixers!

Which is impossible anyway. We don't manage to do that with humans for Valen's sake. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't integrate them into the workforce eventually.

Companies are actually run by competent people for a change and the prawns need their own pro sports leagues?

That's certainly a possibility, but if you can't see any downsides to the scenario I think you're either being intentionally obtuse or have actually suffered a brain injury at some point.

I've been killed countless times so yeah, brain injury was probably involved at some point in my career, but I don't think I'm the one being obtuse here. Pretty much every scenario has downsides. You seem to be blithely assuming that the outcome will be the worst possible imaginable.

As evidenced by...absolutely nothing in the movie. In fact, I don't remember if there were any Prawn young born on Earth at all or if their kids came on the ship with the rest of the population.

I don't see anywhere in the scenario that mankind has the benefit of having watched the movies, do you?

That'd be the part where the OP lacks the Bear saying 'nobody on this here planet ever saw them movies'.

What I do see is 11 million diverse aliens landing at various points around North America about which humanity knows nothing at all.

If we know nothing at all, how do you know they can outbreed us like mad? For all we know, they'll all die out anyway because there's absolutely nothing on this planet they can eat or they're lethally allergic to reality TV.

Do you honestly think this would result in anything other than a generalized freak-out? What do you think will be required in order to find out enough about these visitors to determine whether or not trying to integrate them into human society is a good idea?

At least I haven't started out with the assumption that it wouldn't or that even trying would be the death sentence for the human race.

You've already suggested keeping them locked in their ships.

I have done no such thing. I said they come prepackaged in their ships, nothing more, to counter your stupid rabbit example. We don't need to keep them locked up in their ships for there to be no aliens wandering around messing up the ecosystem (not that I see how you envision that-they don't know our languages, other than the Visitors and possibly some of the Greys they're easily identified as aliens, which makes them hiding among the human populace a tad difficult).

For how long might that go on? Do we build camps for them of some sort? What would the nature of these camps be, and where would we locate them?

Since all the ships seem to have crashed in North America, I dunno, North America seems like a good idea.

If we can have a dialog with them, how do we verify the veracity of whatever it is they tell us about themselves?

By verifying. They tell us they have 12 arms and are 14 metres tall when they're not and don't, they're probably lying?

As for the superior intellect, since that apparently doesn't seem to work all that well for humans, who at least know how to work the system, err-no, not particularly worried.

Yeah, our big brains are pretty worthless, which is why we still live in caves. Oh, wait-

Way to miss the point (not that that comes as a big surprise by now). Look at current society. Now tell me that the people in the top positions are actually the smartest ones. If superior intellect is such a game breaker, how come so many people in important positions are blithering idiots?

We have to something with them, and trying to integrate them into society doesn't seem like such a bad idea. Especially as killing them off is unlikely to sit well with their species if they ever come looking for the crashed ships, what with them being capable of casual interstellar travel and so, you know, seriously able to ruin our day, so showing them we were nice to their people sounds like a pretty damned good idea.

Integrating them into society might not be a bad idea, it might be the worst idea ever.

I really like how you keep repeating that without ever showing why that would actually be the case.

A process would have to be put into place to make these decisions, and we would have to manage the newcomers in some way while that process takes place. As some of my questions above should make clear, this management process might not be all ponies and kittens for everyone.

Aliens extinction eventing us because we ate/slaughtered/enslaved/forced to star in reality TV shows their brethren is highly unlikely to be all ponies and kittens for anybody. Possibly excepting the aliens doing it.

I'm really not all that worried about what will be 1000 years from now because I doubt even I will remain in print that long, but I'm sorry, you're essentially basing your predictions of doom for mankind on...rabbits.

Hey, I won't be alive in 1000 year either. None of us will, so why should we care about anything at all? Oh, that's right, because other people who live in the future will have to live with the consequences of our actions! So maybe before letting 11 million extraterrestrial aliens loose on the planet we should do an excruciatingly thorough risk management analysis?

...says the man/woman/spambot whose proposed solution was to eat the aliens.

[Darth Lucifer]

Besides, I thought this was a teleportation deal, if they come with all their weapons, it ends up being a fight anyways and then its about whether or not they can win.

We know that the Tenctonese were extremely docile when they crashed, thanks to the gas pumped throughout the slave ship which made them easier to control. And no large quantities of weapons or any other useful technology was aboard Gruza. Hell, they were thankful to be here and away from their overlords.

Any Prawn technology has been seized by the US Gov't....since the OP said that they land in a similar situation to what happens in District 9, that means the Prawns are pretty much dying when we find them. I would think.

Can't speak on the Greys...not enough data.

Even if the Visitors still had their support ships and fighter pods, they would get annihilated by a modern 21st century military (they would have been destroyed by the 1980's US military, but the leaders of the government and military were under influence from Diana so we never got to see that). Hell, one guy took down a Visitor fighter craft with a shoulder-fired M72 LAW. A modern fighter jet would rip though one like tissue paper and they would never see it coming. Visitor infantry weapons also suck @$$; they can only fire like once every two seconds. Classic Cylons shoot faster than these guys.

In the face of such overwhelming superiority from the humans, the Visitors are pretty much emasculated. Yeah, I did mention earlier that they arguably pose the biggest threat, but I've reconsidered that position from a firepower standpoint. Still, they are devious bastards and I would think they would try to use their cunning and guile after they realize they can't take us militarily with no Mothership.

[Darth Lucifer]

I know the "V's" were compared to the Obama Administration, but I had a sick thought of the Old School Visitors taking over the GOP...

[Ahriman238]

It is a fair point, one of the alien races mentioned are actually belligerent conquerors using guile in place of actual force. It would certainly become a problem at some point. Best case scenario, we find out about the Visitors early on, perhaps the other aliens rat on them to us. Worst case, they get many years to come up with a new plan while worming their way into public confidence.

[Darth Lucifer]

Worming their way...LOL, I liek that

I was just thinking about another devious visitor...When Dr. Maxwell narcs out the location of the resistance to save his family, the Squad leader really laid it on thick when he lied about giving Maxwell a head start before the attack..."Yes, I understand, I'm a father myself," and all.

Thinking of other examples too...It seems to me that manipulation of others is something they excel at; Diana and Pamela were also schemers, Martin had to be as a fifth columnist, Brian had his own charms, John of course being the Supreme Commander...wow, I could go on and on. I think it was suggested that in Visitor society it was very politcal and people backstabbed each other alot.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I really liked Alien Nation, I've probably seen every episode. I believe in the movie/show they said that the Tenctonese had been quarantined for about 6 months at several military installations before being processed. During that time they were taught English, acquainted with culture, and they were actually taught skills. The 'Newcomer Integration Act' provided a sort of welfare/stipend for all newcomers for 6 months while they found work and they were located in residential housing projects in eastern Los Angeles, as far from the ocean as they could manage.

The only aliens I see NOT getting integrated are the Prawns, because most of them are mindless drones that literally don't care about the safety of their fellow beings. In District 9 I think a few of them tore up train tracks and derailed a train.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I'm pretty sure the idea that most aliens seen in District 9 are mindless and lazy by nature is supposed to be an assumption that provides commentary on the way people jump to the assumption that black people are stupid/lazy/criminal by nature rather than the reality in the film.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Nah, Prawnbros do well. As far as living.