Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbers

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IronStar
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Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbers

Post by IronStar »

I think, you all remember Imperium fleet numbers calcs made by Connor MacLeod loong ago. Recently, i had an argument about Imperium fleet numbers and decided to calculate them, using Connor s methods- 200 planets per sector average and minimum of 1 million worlds in Imperium- 1 000 000/200 = 5000 sectors, and then we can talk about ships. But my opponent(who was not 40k fan just in case) pointed at a mistake in this approach- that sectors are not measurement of planet numbers, but of space- and he was, actually, right- he gave links to lexicanum, and i then checked Battfleet Gothic rulebook- its true.
sectors usually equivalent to a cube with sides 200 light years long
and subsectors contrast with them
Subsectors, rather than being general blocks of space like sectors, are instead centered on densely populated star clusters, important worlds, or meeting points of warp trade routes.
So I decided to do my own calcs using this method to count the average number of sectors. BFG says, that average sector is a cube with sides 200 LY long and volume of 8 million cubic light years(200*200*200= 8 000 000) so the good way to know conservative number of sectors in this case- find or calculate Milky way volumne in cubic LY, reduce it(despite being big, Imperium doesnt cover all Milky way) and divide into 8 000 000.

But there was a problem- there were diameter and thickness, but i couldnt find numbers of Milky way volumne- decided to calc them. I ve imagined that MW is an ellipsoid of Width an length Axis Radius of 50 000 units and height axis radius of 500 units and used this calculator http://www.csgnetwork.com/volumeellipsoid.html
After this, i ve managed to find Milky way volume at wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_ ... e_(volume))
But there is big problem with both- all numbers were just freakin crazy - they showed hundreds of thousands or millions(worst case) sectors and fleet sizes of vay too insane level(dozens of millions in best case). Thats...well thats one is super gross, and i think that i ve made a very bad mistake somewhere.
So i am asking you if theres any mistake in my calcs(i am not good at maths actually, and yes, if Connor answers me i ll be VERY happy).
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Connor MacLeod
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Its not a mistake. Page 45 of the Blue Book is rather explicit under the 'Planets' heading:
. In the Gothic Sector there are over two hundred inhabited worlds and tens of thousands of other planets. Planets often become the focus of space battles as opposing fleets attempt to estalbish forward bases or extend their control throughout a system.
This is consistent with the Rennie novels which describe the Gothic sector as having hundreds of worlds (interestingly enough BOTH books also mention the sector having hundreds of vessels, and this was BEFORE the battle of Gethsemane.) There is also page 316 of the Black Crusade Core Rulebook by FFG:
...each cluster is as a chain of islands in the midst of a vast ocean.The million or so worlds directly controlled by the Imperium are, therefore, to be found in fairly dense groupings called sectors, and the gulfs between each is known as Wilderness Space. Even amongst the two hundred or so settled worlds within the average sector....
Which again fits. Nothing in my calcs (unless they're very very old calcs, but quite obviously I've redone the battlefleet gothic stuff) to my memory involved confusing the size of sectors and the number of worlds.


We also know from Deathwatch: Rites of battle, page 214:
These regions are the domain of the Imperial Navy; made up of thousands of sector battle fleets and countless vessels the Imperial Navy patrols the void and protects the Imperium's obrders as well as the darkness betwen its worlds.
Thousands of sector battlefleets. This actually meshes with a comment made by Andy Chambers WRT Battlefleet Gothic and the number of sectors of the Imperium. From the above link:
Q: In the ship section, there is mention of Imperial Oberon-class battlecruisers and Apocalypse-class battleships. Were these cut from the registry to save room? Also, will these be making an appearance in a future issue of WD or possibly a supplement?

A: No we just wanted to give an impression of there being a greater number of ship classes and designs in the galaxy than were depicted in the book, particularly as Gothic sector is but one among thousands. Having said that we might well put some extra ship designs in WD at some point


We can even extrapolate further from Rogue Trader RPG (again FFG) and their sourcebook Battlefleet Koronus, page 67:
..lord high-admiral is the highest rank of the Imperial Navy. Only five of these august individuals exist, one for each of the Segmentae Majoris. Each is responsible for the Imperial Navy’s fighting forces across the thousands of sectors in their allotted quadrant of the galaxy, or in the case of the Lord High-Admiral Solar, the substantial volumes around Holy Terra itself.
Thats thousands of sectors per segmentum. And there are hints that battlefleets span THOUSANDS of vessels per sector in that same book (Page 68)
In ancient times when an entire Battlefleet might be massed together, the thousands of ships present would be divided in to three commands, each under their own admiral. The rearadmiral was the youngest and least experienced and so would be given charge of the rearmost division as the one least likely to see combat.

It can be wrangled about lots of ways. Some sectors have gotten as small as 50 worlds (Corribra sector from the BFG Magazines, the sector in the Last Chancers novel 13th Legion) but that actually gives MORE sectors, not less. And I've been hard pressed to think of sectors being larger than a couple hundred worlds.. a few sources hint at a thousand or more worlds per sector (inhabited, Imperial worlds) but that would be unusual unless we assume there are 'millions' of worlds in the Imperium (which would only push the number of sectors up again, but has been mentioned in many sources and is thus quite possible.)


As far as 'going by sector volume'.. those simply wont work. The problem with that is its made quite explicit in BFG and other sources that sectors and the subsectors within them are not rigidly defined. The Imperial held systems and territories are scattered throughout the sector, sometimes separated by vast tracts of wilderness space that is NOT inhabited (and sometimes not even explored) by the Imperium. On top of that, sectors are not neccesarily adjacent to each other. Just as worlds within a sector can be scattered about and separated by uninhabited space, the same is true of sectors. Its sometimes mentioend that planets can be separated by hundreds or even thousands of light years of space, and we simply don't know how far apart sectors are as a rule (and even then its probably not consistent.) At best, you're going to get a very generous upper limit (or an approximation depending on the assumptions made) but its not going to be terribly reliable, as you have discovered.
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IronStar
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by IronStar »

Oh, thank you very much, i am very glad that you have answered.
This is consistent with the Rennie novels which describe the Gothic sector as having hundreds of worlds (interestingly enough BOTH books also mention the sector having hundreds of vessels, and this was BEFORE the battle of Gethsemane.)
Hundreds of vessels? Hmm, i have red both BFG novels but dont remember this(and this contradicts BFG too). And what is "Blue Book"?
And there are hints that battlefleets span THOUSANDS of vessels per sector in that same book
I see.....and that is said about particular sector. It is very interesting, but i think it is too many and contradicts other material- but there can be other explanations maybe(one of them- it covers all ships, not only capitals and escorts, but transports, couriers, raiders etc which is reasonable then)- and why "ancient times" mentioned? Does it imply, that such fleets could be amassed then, but due to some reasons cant be now? Hmm...

I see you arguments about number of worlds as a reasonable approach- there is material supporting this point, after all. Volume approach is also logically possible, and has some grounds also, but gives way too insane numbers(there can be millions of cap ships i think, but dozens of millions is too gross) so it is FAR less reliable.

And some fleet questions- opponents tried to convince me, that Crusade fleet of 15 ships is considered to be very large in Imperium, so how large fleet can Imperium converge if required?
And about Cadian gate- i frequently meet numbers of hundreds and even thousands ships protecting it, while Battlefleet Cadia is far smaller actually- so where do these big numbers come from?
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Connor MacLeod
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by Connor MacLeod »

If you let 'one source contradicts another' stop you, there's no point in even bothering to analyze 40K, much less fiction in general. Inconsistency, and more commonly PERCEIVED inconsistency (because someone interprets something as being one way and not accepting any other interpretation) is a fact of life amongst sci fi nerds. You either find a way to reconcile between the discrepancies or you just leave it open to interpretation. 40K is pretty much oriented on 'myth and legend and things may or may nto be true' so there's lots of wiggle room when it comes to interpretation.
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IronStar
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by IronStar »

Yes its all true and i know 40k well enough to understand this, and that is true for other sci-fi too. Thats why i, actually, NEVER engage in vs debates- too many reservations have to be done and too much stuff agreed upon before hand and neither is done, or expanding into shitstorm when smb tries(however, shitstorms always follows sci-fi nerds-its a constant, i think). Anyway, i asked this more because it is interesting for me as a 40k fan- i like or don t like sci-fi verses not cause they can or cant beat others, that is silly. I also think, that is more interesting when there is no "oh, that is a canon" but when you have to do more research to see the whole picture.
And again thank you very much for you point of view.
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by andrewgpaul »

"Blue Book" is the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook - so named because it's blue.
"So you want to live on a planet?"
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by Connor MacLeod »

as I recall the habit is to refer to the core rules of most WH/40K game systems by a description like that. IIRC core rules for at least some editions of 40K has been referred to as the 'big black book' too.
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by SMJB »

Simon_Jester wrote:"WHERE IS YOUR MISSILEGOD NOW!?"
Starglider wrote:* Simon stared coldly across the table at the student, who had just finnished explaining the link between the certainty of young earth creation and the divinely ordained supremacy of the white race. "I am updating my P values", Simon said through thinned lips, "to a direction and degree you will find... most unfavourable."
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by Connor MacLeod »

SMJB wrote:Also, remember that Scifi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale.

You know, every time someone tries some sort of stupid cliched line like that, I want to yell and curse at them. Honestly, what made you think that was even a real, intelligent response, rather than something everyone trots out just so they don't have to, you know, actually ANALYZE stuff?
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by SMJB »

I'm just saying that it's hardly unusual to do the math and find that the canon sources are way, way off. (*cough* population of Corusant *cough*)
Simon_Jester wrote:"WHERE IS YOUR MISSILEGOD NOW!?"
Starglider wrote:* Simon stared coldly across the table at the student, who had just finnished explaining the link between the certainty of young earth creation and the divinely ordained supremacy of the white race. "I am updating my P values", Simon said through thinned lips, "to a direction and degree you will find... most unfavourable."
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by Connor MacLeod »

That gets down to whose definition of 'logic' you ascribe to. People don't look at the evidence the same way. One man's 'Writers have no sense of scale' is another persons 'power creep' and the two have been argued over for all manner of sci fi for ages.
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Re: Imperium sector measurement methodology and fleet numbe

Post by Cykeisme »

Interesting discussion here.

So the Imperium has sectors that are not necessarily adjacent to other sectors, and in less densely populated regions (say, the outer edges of Ultima Segmentum), each sector may be separated from the next sector by a large tract of uncharted Wilderness Space?
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