Ben Counter Grey/Blood Knights

[PainRack]

For all those upset about Matt Ward "Blood Knights" monniker in the codex, do not read Ben Counter short story, Sacrifice.


In it, he depicts the sacrifices made in order to enable the Gray Knights to overcome a Chaos Champion, including those needed to consecrate their wargear. Namely, the blood of "a good man" to make the pyschic impregnated rounds and the use of psykers to fuel the forges that made the pyschic wards on the Gray Knights armour.
The final sacrifice, that of torture/brainwashing to wipte out a person personality to make an Ordos Malleus interrogator was almost self serving:D


Now, it MIGHT be possible to view the psyker from another point of view, the story has it as a POV from the psyker that she and her fellow members on the Black Ship were going to be sacrificed to fuel the forge(think Golden Throne) but they 'might' have been intended as slave labour. However, the story explicitly shows the murder of an UNWILLING human, and the use of his BLOOD to consecrate the bullet.
Its also a bit more frightening because the priest explicitly states that this ritual had been repeated on a thousand worlds........ and only ONE bullet was thus blessed. Think about that the next time you deploy a psycannon.

[Connor MacLeod]

I already read the story (and I covered some of the sillier bits in one of my more recent 'Space Marine' anthology threads). It genuinely does make anything Ward wrote in the GK codex look pretty silly by comparsion.


Frankly I thought the 'make GK armor from cremated psyker' was even worse/sillier, but YMMV.

That said, people tend to blow shit like this out of proportion simply on the wording alone and totally disregarding the intent. I mean 40K is pretty much built on POV, and alot of the shit the Imperium takes as 'miracles' or other shit could be argued as sorcery from another POV, because in a mechanical sense - the nature of the warp and the way that shit has been outlined since first edition - there really *ISN'T* much difference.

And the whole 'blood sacrifice' thing is pretty silly as well. Death Cultists? Blood worship of the emperor is hardly unheard of. Its just the 'context/detail' that matters, and again thats pretty subjective.

As far as the bullet thing goes, my belief is that its one of the more deluded blood cults in the Imperium, but it hardly describes the ONLY way sanctification occurs.

Anyhow, Ben Counter has this gift to be simultaneously great when he writes some things, yet totally generate rage (evne in me) when he writes other stuff. The man truly is an embodiment of a Chaos-inclined writer. lol

[Black Admiral]

I simply ignore Sacrifices, as it's a very poor attempt to integrate Ward's Marines Jackass with the much more heroic GKs Ben Counter's previously written of (and thankfully The Emperor's Gift rubbishes that "Sacrifice dudes to bless bullets all over the Imperium" nonsense, as it's explicit that all the GKs' ammo is made on Deimos and shipped from there straight to Titan).

[Connor MacLeod]

The uproar over depictions of the GK has more to do with people's preconceived ideas of how the setting should work, more than anything else. Not unlike the uproar over the Necrons (which was even *more* hilarious.)

Ward is not a terribly good writer when left unattended (not unlike small children) but when he has someone riding herd on him he is decent. That is hardly unusual in writers, even in 40K.

[Ahriman238]

I read it in the "Victories of the Space Marines" anthology. I was more troubled by the idea that they needed a good, law-abiding man's blood. Then again, we've seen this flavor of crazy in the Imperium before, Death Cults, Eversors, acro-flagellants, penal legions and the mass murder/mindwiping of soldiers who encounter Chaos all come to mind. So really, it's just an extra slice of grimdark.

[Grumman]

The uproar over depictions of the GK has more to do with people's preconceived ideas of how the setting should work, more than anything else.

Even taken in isolation, Ward's take on the GK is just bad writing. Having them run around wielding daemon weapons, associating with daemons, using the Chaos Gods' sacred numbers and performing blood sacrifices under the influence of the Blood God, Khorne and yet not suffering the usual consequence of such actions by the power of wank is bad writing. Having Draigo run around in the Warp cock-slapping the Chaos Gods - warp entities fuelled by entire interstellar empires - is bad writing. And having their "sacrifice" paid for in its entirety by other people, while they laugh in their mead hall is bad writing.

It's why I always say Grey Knights should be immune to Chaos the same way servitors are immune to Chaos: because they have been turned into something less than a man. Crowe should be immune to the temptation of a daemon weapon because he is literally incapable of wielding it, no matter how vital it is that he does so.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ward's approach to the Ultramarines in Codex Space Marines was far more offensive than anything in the GK codex as far as fluff goes (whether the game mechanics suck or not is an entirely different story.) and that was largely because the Ultramarines fanboyism clashed with the recycled old material in noticable ways (you could actually tell a distinct difference. It was like the sourcebook was written by schizophrenics.)

The rest of that is more or less debatable because.. well thats how 40K works. As I said we had that same whinefest with the Necrons. OMFG NECRONS CAN'T CROSS GALAXY IN AN INSTANT ANYMORE THIS SUX. And that is not an exaggeration, I had people literally tell me that was true. They hated the new 'interpretation', and despite the fact there was wiggle room for interpretation they still refused to release their grudge because it wasn't the right interpretation to satisfy them.. They'd much rather take the shitty stuff and rage over it than try to reconcile stuff in a universe KNOWN for contradiction, ambiguity, and total lack of structured canon. That's the analytical equivalent of flipping the checkerboard over and storming off because your opponent said 'king me'.

[Grumman]

They hated the new 'interpretation', and despite the fact there was wiggle room for interpretation they still refused to release their grudge because it wasn't the right interpretation to satisfy them.. They'd much rather take the shitty stuff and rage over it than try to reconcile stuff in a universe KNOWN for contradiction, ambiguity, and total lack of structured canon. That's the analytical equivalent of flipping the checkerboard over and storming off because your opponent said 'king me'.

No, it's the equivalent of reading Kevin J. Anderson's story in which his protagonist takes over the Death Star and trolls the Emperor and deciding you don't want to integrate it into your personal fanon. Or reading Amazons Attack and deciding the DC universe would be better off without this bigoted exercise in character assassination.

[Connor MacLeod]

People screech about Kevin J Anderson far more than is worthy too. His JAT stuff was dull, but it wasn't the work of Satan exactly either.

Same with CS goto really.

The problem is again, one of interpretation. People 'hate' stuff not because it is objectively bad, but because its stuff that clashes with their preconceptions of how it should be. In the case of 40K this is particularily absurd, given the lax anti-canon stance that has historically existed in 40K, as wlel as the fact most 40K nerds are adamant that '40K doesn't obey logic rule of cool lawl'. And yet despite not 'making sense' they get outraged becuase it doesn't make sense to them..

Again it isn't 'the stuff doesn't make sense' its 'I don't like the interpretation so therefore it is objectively bad.' There is a difference.


Edit: to elaborate on this point. Most people rage about Matt Ward, or Goto (or KJ Anderson) because they think his shit is stupid. and yet they don't rage about (for example) how utterly idiotic the military vehicle or equipment design is for most 40K stuff. but if you asked someone like Sea Skimmer or Gunhead, I bet they could give you plenty of reasons why it is fucking idiotic and why the writers/artists/whatever who cooked it up are complete and total morons. Especially for the Titans.

and they would have a point from their point of view. Hence 'point of view.'

[Connor MacLeod]

damn, missed the edit window. anyhow, addendum!

There's always those 40K fans who rage about Dan Abnett, or Sandy Mitchell, or ADB, or various other authors who might be considered 'good' because they don't write 40K the 'right' way. Such as 'Dan Abnett can't write Space Marines/Primarchs/proper grimdark.'

I actually love the 'Dan doesn't write Space Marines/Primarchs the right way' especially, because I know its about feat masturbation. Or how the IG is 'too competent, overteched, or not trench warfary/attritiony enough'. Although there I will admit some of my own pro-IG bias comes into play.

[Kuja]

I think one of the reasons stuff like the Bloodtide went over badly is that when the setting and the fiction therein have already gone through many, many loops to explain how the Grey Knights are so special, so set apart in terms of martial ability and their demonfighting purpose - everything from their incredibly selective recruitment, their brainwashing and intensive hypnotherapy and training, to the ridiculous odds they're epxected to face - there's sort of a critical mass where continuing to pile on stuff like "and then they paint sisters' blood on their armor and wash their bolter shells in innocent blood" etc triggers a backlash. It's like a sort of cosmic Mary-Sue-threshold or something.

I just ignore it, personally. As far as I'm concerned it's all holy water, etched wards, prayers, and faith. The orginal Grey Knights, in a nutshell. Chaos and the nuttier strata of the Imperium can keep the blood rituals.

[Ahriman238]

Yes this happens with 40K, but some people get a bit unhappy, then move on. I wasn't a big fan of the pain glove in Sons of Dorn, despised Legion, and am sick of the oh so absurdly special Ultrasmurfs and Blood Ravens. You know what? I got over it. There's plenty of great things the setting has given us, so it's easy to forgive the bad.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think one of the reasons stuff like the Bloodtide went over badly is that when the setting and the fiction therein have already gone through many, many loops to explain how the Grey Knights are so special, so set apart in terms of martial ability and their demonfighting purpose - everything from their incredibly selective recruitment, their brainwashing and intensive hypnotherapy and training, to the ridiculous odds they're epxected to face - there's sort of a critical mass where continuing to pile on stuff like "and then they paint sisters' blood on their armor and wash their bolter shells in innocent blood" etc triggers a backlash. It's like a sort of cosmic Mary-Sue-threshold or something.

I just ignore it, personally. As far as I'm concerned it's all holy water, etched wards, prayers, and faith. The orginal Grey Knights, in a nutshell. Chaos and the nuttier strata of the Imperium can keep the blood rituals.

But again thats kind of subjective, isn't it? I mean if you actually browse the various 40K themed forums (or where it gets discussed alot) you get some amazingly divergent (and even intolerant) views about how the setting should work. I wasn't exaggerating that there are some fans (and by my experience a non trivial percentage) that think Abnett, ADB, or whatever author they hate is the worst thing to come to 40K ever.. usually because its not 'codex fluff' enough for them, or its not 'whatever edition of 40K is their favorite and they never moved past', etc.

I mean I'm full of my own peculiar 40K biases. I like 2nd edition more than some of the latter ones. I like the IG more than I like Space Marines and most of the aliens, blah blah blah. I bitch about the stuff I hate (EG my particular RAGE for early Forgeworld shit in particular) but 'stuff I like' does not mean its automatically, objectively bad. I used to argue that way though (OMG THIS SHIT HAPPENED THIS WAY, I HATE IT WHAT A HORRIBLE AUTHOR/WRITER/DESIGNER.)

I'm actually reminded of you explaining why you hated the perpetuals and Ollanius's depiction in the HH novels. Its a viewpoint I'm familiar with (and I know others share the same) and I can grasp WHY you feel that way. I just dont think its really warranted. I mean to me the difference between a 'human Oll' and 'Immortal Oll' is really trivial - immortal Oll is probably less powerful than my freaking namesake PRE quickening, for crying out loud (unless you give him a lasgun, anyhow.) So for me the immortality is not disruptive enough to my SoD to break the situation, but I can grasp at least some people consider it to be such, but that is ultimately a POV issue, and the universe allows for both viewpoints to coexist.

And yet, plenty of fans I know in 40K act like 40K has a canon policy that we know does not exist, and refuse to act otherwise, becaues they KNOW how it should be. Its freaking bizarre.


I actually saw quite extreme attitudes like that back when I was still more active with Star Wars. People were so 'into' the setting, but into it in such a particular, narrow way that they couldn't contemplate it being anything BUT that way, and when it wasn't that way they were disappointed, angry, offended. That passion turned to hatred. Its powreful, but its also pretty depressing and bleak, and I've seen that peculiar love/hate in 40K as well.

[Kuja]

But again thats kind of subjective, isn't it?

Well...yes, that's kind of what I was getting at. It's all subjective, but sometimes a writer will just do something egregious enough, or pile just enough stuff into the wrong moment that it ticks off enough people to become a thing.

Fact of the matter is, whenever you write fiction there will be boundaries on what you can or can't get away without your fanbase exploding. Of course, nobody knows what they are, and they can change from minute to minute, so it's all about knowing just what you can and can't push. I think the deal with the GKs just managed to stumble outside enough boundaries that things exploded.

After all, even something as lax about canon as 40K has a hierarchy to things. Abnett is one of the most revered writers in the Black Library, but if he spontaneously put out a book where the Raven Guard suddenly started wearing neon pink armor someone would probably garrote him outside his house. When people get comfy with what they want and what they expect from a story/setting, they get uncomfortable when something feels out of place (aka FUCK THE PERPETUALS syndrome).

It's kind of an unfortuante consequence of being popular, I suppose. If nobody cared, nobody would care enough to hate. Thin line et al, but that's humanity for you.

[PainRack]

People screech about Kevin J Anderson far more than is worthy too. His JAT stuff was dull, but it wasn't the work of Satan exactly either.

I'm sorry, but have you ever read KJA works in other fiction? Dune? Or *shudders* X-files?

He shits on franchises.

And the fact that he was 'chancellor' of SW fiction is just as shitty. He as much as any other was responsible for the recycling of Tatooine tropes. I mean sure, we already had Tatooine being a tourist spot in other EU fluff guides but he's the one that made it worthy of an ANTHROPOLOGICAL survey...... Which is nothing more than a shapeshifter visiting the planet and talking to people.

And JAT is hardly the reason why people blast him. Darksaber.........


KJA shits all over the SW franchise because not only is his writing inconsistent and blasts other interpretations, but its mind boggling boring while stupid. Fuck. Compare the Glove of Darth Vader series to his own series on Anakin Skywalker..... Despite the extremely bad writing, its still MORE interesting a read than Anakin, although KJA kid series at least featured less bad writing.(I blame the targeting of audiences).


And of course, the whole Young Jedi Academy thing was pretty good for its audience.

[PainRack]

I simply ignore Sacrifices, as it's a very poor attempt to integrate Ward's Marines Jackass with the much more heroic GKs Ben Counter's previously written of (and thankfully The Emperor's Gift rubbishes that "Sacrifice dudes to bless bullets all over the Imperium" nonsense, as it's explicit that all the GKs' ammo is made on Deimos and shipped from there straight to Titan).

Come on, where's the grimdark in that?

Every psy blessed round you fired being bathed in the blood of one good man. That's gotta be grimdark, right?

[Black Admiral]

I simply ignore Sacrifices, as it's a very poor attempt to integrate Ward's Marines Jackass with the much more heroic GKs Ben Counter's previously written of (and thankfully The Emperor's Gift rubbishes that "Sacrifice dudes to bless bullets all over the Imperium" nonsense, as it's explicit that all the GKs' ammo is made on Deimos and shipped from there straight to Titan).

Come on, where's the grimdark in that?

Every psy blessed round you fired being bathed in the blood of one good man. That's gotta be grimdark, right?

As Connor will tell you, I consider mindless grimdark the bane of getting decent material.


More generally, I dislike Ward's take on the GKs because he treats their protection from Chaos corruption as license to go hog-wild, whether using daemon-weapons, allowing daemonhosts in allied forces (something which in Codex: Daemonhunters would automatically remove GKs as potential allies), or murdering their allies to perform ineffective sorcery on their armour. Right at the top of the list, narratively it's not very compelling; if their protection from Chaos is just a thing that allows them to do whatever they like, where's the interest in seeing them consider what methods are or are not acceptable? That's something that Ben Counter and ADB handled a lot better (even accounting of the problems I have with The Emperor's Gift); the primary protection a Grey Knight has, isn't something that just is, it's his devotion to the Emperor and discipline, things that they have to work at to maintain.

Plus, using the powers of the Dark Gods kind of fucks up the GKs-as-Paladins imagery, which is one of the things I like best about them. It's genuinely hard to see one of the Ward!GKs responding so;

“Perhaps, but I was once one of your Emperor’s chosen and I cannot be defeated. You know this, Aurellian; I can see it plain as day. Why must you fight and die here for a rotted corpse on a planet you have never seen?”

“Because I must,” said Aurellian simply, thrusting his weapon towards Angron.

(source = White Dwarf 278)