2013 Earth vs. 50 Anacreon
Moderator: NecronLord
- Boeing 757
- Padawan Learner
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Re: 2013 Earth vs. 50 Anacreon
It's not the first time that Asimov was glaringly wrong about demographic figures. The 40 billions figure of Trantor often mentioned throughout the series is laughable to the utmost.
Omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium.
Kritisches Denken schützt vor Illusionen.
Παν μέτρον άριστον τῷ κρατίστῳ.
Kritisches Denken schützt vor Illusionen.
Παν μέτρον άριστον τῷ κρατίστῳ.
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- Youngling
- Posts: 58
- Joined: 2012-11-02 04:38pm
Re: 2013 Earth vs. 50 Anacreon
We know descriptions of two Trader world. Both are marginal for settlement. Haven is cold, they mention ice - but not cold enough to freeze the whole sea. Radole is tidelocked. Radole City is in the twilight band, said to be a favourable spot - most of the rest of twilight band is not inhabitable either.
Traders settled on barely habitable worlds that no one else had wanted. Why?
Note how easy it was to create/reproduce Foundation level infrastructure. The 1 million people of Terminus managed, in just 30 years (by 80 FE) to invent personal protective shield which the 25 million planets of Empire over 12 millennia did not manage to do!. Haven, and their productive factories, which we see at work under siege, were built over 80 years by people who numbered 400 000 by the end and surely rather fewer when they started building. Apparently the whole Haven was similarly hostile, because the world was describes as "stone caves" - even though at least the biggest cave city, with 20 000 people, does have daylight from ceiling, and streets and two story buildings in cave.
Sef Sermak and his Activists are worried about Anacreon gaining the technology of Foundation. They speak about the possibility of trainee priests seeing through religion, and returning to service of Kings of Anacreon.
And finally, when Hardin travels to Anacreon, they suspect him of having betrayed Foundation to Anacreon and receiving some reward for it.
But note that Lewis Bort travels to Anacreon unchallenged and unmolested. He draws no attention, and neither does Foundation government of Hardin prevent him from leaving.
Why is no one worried about the possibility of individual Foundation citizens defecting to 4 Kingdoms?
If a trainee priest, with his initial devout faith (that got him selected for training on Terminus), his distorted AND limited knowledge, would, Activists claim, be a threat if seeing through his faith and returning to Anacreon service, then how about a Foundation citizen? Secular education, no blind religious faith, no deliberate distortion of his knowledge. Sure, he would not know everything at all fields - but he´d be very much more useful to Anacreon, and thus much bigger threat to Foundation.
Traders settled on barely habitable worlds that no one else had wanted. Why?
Note how easy it was to create/reproduce Foundation level infrastructure. The 1 million people of Terminus managed, in just 30 years (by 80 FE) to invent personal protective shield which the 25 million planets of Empire over 12 millennia did not manage to do!. Haven, and their productive factories, which we see at work under siege, were built over 80 years by people who numbered 400 000 by the end and surely rather fewer when they started building. Apparently the whole Haven was similarly hostile, because the world was describes as "stone caves" - even though at least the biggest cave city, with 20 000 people, does have daylight from ceiling, and streets and two story buildings in cave.
Sef Sermak and his Activists are worried about Anacreon gaining the technology of Foundation. They speak about the possibility of trainee priests seeing through religion, and returning to service of Kings of Anacreon.
And finally, when Hardin travels to Anacreon, they suspect him of having betrayed Foundation to Anacreon and receiving some reward for it.
But note that Lewis Bort travels to Anacreon unchallenged and unmolested. He draws no attention, and neither does Foundation government of Hardin prevent him from leaving.
Why is no one worried about the possibility of individual Foundation citizens defecting to 4 Kingdoms?
If a trainee priest, with his initial devout faith (that got him selected for training on Terminus), his distorted AND limited knowledge, would, Activists claim, be a threat if seeing through his faith and returning to Anacreon service, then how about a Foundation citizen? Secular education, no blind religious faith, no deliberate distortion of his knowledge. Sure, he would not know everything at all fields - but he´d be very much more useful to Anacreon, and thus much bigger threat to Foundation.
Re: 2013 Earth vs. 50 Anacreon
Fossil fueled starships are never mentioned, hinted or suggested. Oil and coal are mentioned only in regards to the planetary economies. Even Askone, which is pointed as the most virulently anti-atomic state in the Foundation's sphere of influence, is explicitly pointed to keep around atomic-powered starships.Boeing 757 wrote:The science in those early books was never meant to be accurate or precise...take Anacreon's fossil-fueled interstellar starships, for example's sake.
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- Youngling
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- Joined: 2012-11-02 04:38pm
Re: 2013 Earth vs. 50 Anacreon
Note how divergent social orders arose in different Periphery states, out of presumably similar imperial background.
In 4 Kingdoms, high nobility, nobles and manors were present and taken for granted 2 weeks after independence. Pirenne´s and Hardin´s lack of noble titles and noble birth evokes surprise and contempt from Anacreon nobles. What existed of Imperial Navy went over to the Kingdom ruled by their own governors. The governors proclaimed themselves kings - expressly, formally hereditary.
In Askone, we hear that instead of seizing independence for themselves, the Imperial troops were expelled - by some sort of popular rebellion. We know it is possible, because it happened in Siwenna. Bort implies it could have happened in Anacreon if Anacreon had been attacked by Anacreon or Foundation, but did not happened because the Foundation religion upheld the hereditary kings against the prospect of either popular rebellion or coups by their high nobles. The resulting Askone was headed by Elders, and the position of Grand Master was really elective - the Grand Master was not going to be succeeded by his heir, and Pherl could buy the next election with Foundation gold, or lose it without that gold because he was from a new family.
In Korell, we do not hear of how Empire ended. But we see the present. Formally a republic, holds show elections, but de facto hereditary. We hear of Asper Argo inheriting his father´s post, and the election of "someone from Argo family" implies there have been more Argo Commdores - though interestingly we do not hear of Asper´s own son and heir. Licia has no children mentioned, and the disappearances of Foundation ships over a year might give her enough time to conceive. But we hear who Asper´s counsellors are. They cling to their profits, and Mallow implies that the factory owners have the power to bring Asper down. Licia holds contempt of them - and so would the nobles of 4 Kingdoms have done.
The 3 Periphery states we know, although all barbarous, have divergent social organizations and attitudes. But there were hundreds of thousands of them.
A malcontent and a potential or actual exile from Foundation could have done some shopping around for hosts with attitudes that made the hosts capable and willing to apply the expertise of the exiles and reward them.
Mallow and the other merchants are suspected of disloyalty and betrayal of Foundation for being from outside Foundation and having lay education not religious faith. Well, the Independent Merchants actually do go to exile. Why then to caves on uninhabited planets?
In 4 Kingdoms, high nobility, nobles and manors were present and taken for granted 2 weeks after independence. Pirenne´s and Hardin´s lack of noble titles and noble birth evokes surprise and contempt from Anacreon nobles. What existed of Imperial Navy went over to the Kingdom ruled by their own governors. The governors proclaimed themselves kings - expressly, formally hereditary.
In Askone, we hear that instead of seizing independence for themselves, the Imperial troops were expelled - by some sort of popular rebellion. We know it is possible, because it happened in Siwenna. Bort implies it could have happened in Anacreon if Anacreon had been attacked by Anacreon or Foundation, but did not happened because the Foundation religion upheld the hereditary kings against the prospect of either popular rebellion or coups by their high nobles. The resulting Askone was headed by Elders, and the position of Grand Master was really elective - the Grand Master was not going to be succeeded by his heir, and Pherl could buy the next election with Foundation gold, or lose it without that gold because he was from a new family.
In Korell, we do not hear of how Empire ended. But we see the present. Formally a republic, holds show elections, but de facto hereditary. We hear of Asper Argo inheriting his father´s post, and the election of "someone from Argo family" implies there have been more Argo Commdores - though interestingly we do not hear of Asper´s own son and heir. Licia has no children mentioned, and the disappearances of Foundation ships over a year might give her enough time to conceive. But we hear who Asper´s counsellors are. They cling to their profits, and Mallow implies that the factory owners have the power to bring Asper down. Licia holds contempt of them - and so would the nobles of 4 Kingdoms have done.
The 3 Periphery states we know, although all barbarous, have divergent social organizations and attitudes. But there were hundreds of thousands of them.
A malcontent and a potential or actual exile from Foundation could have done some shopping around for hosts with attitudes that made the hosts capable and willing to apply the expertise of the exiles and reward them.
Mallow and the other merchants are suspected of disloyalty and betrayal of Foundation for being from outside Foundation and having lay education not religious faith. Well, the Independent Merchants actually do go to exile. Why then to caves on uninhabited planets?