Honor Harrington without Honor

[Crazedwraith]

We had a spate of HH discussion threads before. So I thought it'd be fun to have some more discussion on it.

Say at the end of the second novel, The Honor Of The Queen, White Haven arrives just a few minutes later, or his super long range missile barrage fails, in any case suppose Fearless and Thunder Of God mutually destroy each other and Honor Harrington is KIA, but Grayson is still saved and joins the Manticorian Alliance.

How does the series continue without its eponymous Hero? how badly does manticore suffer without her? Could other competent manticorian or grayson officers done the same things as her? As well?

[Gaidin]

The nature of his writing is you'd end up shifting the focus to some other hero, likely. Or some other hero would've already been there, on another ship. Something similar happened in another of his series. He's not exactly George RR Martin I guess is what I'm saying.

[Batman]

As Weber himself commented throughout the series, 'militarily' Honor wasn't actually all that important. I think without Honor the Manticore/Grayson alliance gets a lot wobblier, and you can 'forget' the reforms on Grayson. I think the largest effects of no Honor are going to be the much more reluctant Grayson and her missing input on the WDB (and her late series' roles as the 'voice of reason' for Manticore and a combo lie detector with Nimitz but those are political/advisory, not military.)

[Q99]

The Honor of the Queen is going to be enough for a firm military alliance, the main difference is it's going to be harder for Grayson to do political reforms without her input.


However, she was useful in convincing White Haven to give pods a chance. Soooo, yea, some delay there drags things out ^^ Shouldn't affect MDMs or ghost rider, so they gain overwhelming advantage sooner or later.


Though on the flipside, there's a chance that butterfly effect means the assassination-at-Grayson never happens and the idiot parties never take control. Manticore wins their war straight up, first time. There's a formal surrender with Haven, and no room for Mesa shenanigans.

Given that... it's really hard to tell how the Mesa situation develops.

[SpottedKitty]

Shouldn't affect MDMs or ghost rider, so they gain overwhelming advantage sooner or later.

I'm trying to remember some of the prequel stories, weren't those technologies actually in early development by then? They would have been deployed pretty much when they actually did no matter what happens to Honor.

[Batman]

'Available', but I think Honor not being around to advocate using them might have figured noticeably into when they were actually deployed.
Or it might not, she was still pretty small fry as of Operation Buttercup.

[Terralthra]

Well, she was a full admiral at that point, and since she was in recovery from her multiple surgeries and prosthetics, and working at the ATC at Saganami Island, it's said that the Buttercup ops plan "has her fingerprints all over it." Not that the weapons systems involved left a huge amount of room for failure, given the massive force multiplier, but it's possible they may have not pressed the advantage they had as much as they did in the OT, which has lots of potential knock-on effects.

Remember that it was only the misdirection of the Alliance's defenses of the Grendelsbane approaches and the soon-to-be-launched Bagration that led to McQueen's coup and Saint-Just's direct control of the PRH; Buttercup's super-rapid advance led to the assassination of Duke Cromarty, and Theisman's successful coup that restored the Republic. If the misdirection defenses and Buttercup really had as much of Honor's influence as is thought by Truman and White Haven, then the potential changes are distinct starting around then.

There are other places of change, though. Icarus hammered the Alliance hard, and Harrington's return from the dead seems like it was an omen that gave heart to Alliance navies. If it got that far unaltered, the Second Battle of Marsh would've been a victory for the RHN, since it was only Harrington's personal pull with the Protector that got the Protector's Own sent out to support her in the first place.

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm...

Supposing Honor dies at the end of Honor of the Queen...

Hm. Well, Sarnow gets a new flag captain. Honor played a considerable role in that battle by making suggestions. For instance, I think using the decoy superdreadnoughts to temporarily deter Chin's squadron from pressing the attack was her idea. Overall, Sarnow's no slouch but his battlecruisers might well be get fried anyway, because Parks would have divided his forces the same way in The Short Victorious War. Sarnow getting wounded would probably still happen; a less dynamic captain might well not have taken command and effectively run the last phase of the battle herself as Honor did.

It is possible that the repair base at Hancock would have been destroyed in the resulting battle. That might have ramifications- it might result in the Manticoran flank being weaker up there, and making Alizon/Zanzibar/Wherever a more inviting target for Peep raids later in the war. It is also likely that Sarnow ends up dead or a POW; either way the RMN loses a good admiral along with the already-missing good captain.

...

Meanwhile, Young would probably still desert in the battle, but affairs would play out differently without his vendetta with Honor as the focus of the trial. That breaks down as follows:

1) His ship might be targeted and destroyed in battle (say, if the Manticoran squadron breaks up after without Honor holding it together and there's a general Havenite pursuit). In that case there's no political crisis. There's a good chance Pavel's father (Dmitri?) has the same heart attack 'as historical' on getting the news, leaving Stefan Young in charge of the earldom and the North Hollow files.

2) Young might be tried and found guilty 'as historical.'

3) Young might survive and be tried for desertion, but get away with it. It is likely that the RMN force would have disintegrated without Honor (and under heavier, more effective attack without Honor's deception schemes and tricks), so he might well be able to get away with it by pointing out that the battle was effectively lost and central command and control had collapsed. Or, simply, that he had received no orders to the contrary, since without Honor taking command from Nike, another flag captain might not have tried to tell him to do something. In which case Pavel stays in the RMN.

4) Young might survive and not be tried at all, depending on who survives the battle and how it's spun. This maps back to (3).

If (1) happens, the odds are that the Earl of North Hollow (whoever he is) will NOT be interested in opposing Manticore's formal declaration of war. Indeed, he'll probably be encouraging it. This may actually result in the opening year of the war going better for Manticore than it would otherwise (except around Hancock and Seaford Nine). it results in the various RMN fleets being more able to press the short-term advantage created by the confusion in the Haven chain of command after the Harris Assassination and Pierre's purges.

(2) and (3) all result in more or less the same situation 'as historical,' with the Conservative Association using its support for the declaration of war as a bargaining chip to secure Pavel Young's life.

(4) results in the declaration of war probably going more smoothly than 'historical' but not by much; the Conservative Association will have LESS incentive to oppose the declaration of war, but that doesn't mean 'none.'

...

Then we come to the events of Flag in Exile. I think some of the Grayson reforms might actually go about as smoothly without Honor as with it, because the opposition she raised among Grayson conservatives (such as the irrational lengths to which men like Burdette go to bring her down) seems to have more or less canceled out the direct benefits of her presence and support, at least at first. I think Burdette might not have gone mad enough to resort to terrorism, at least not as early as 'historical.'

The aspects of the reforms that emphasize the role of women will change differently. Honor dead will still be a national heroine, and that will still matter, plus there are numerous Manticoran women as role models. But Honor's absence alters, slows, and diffuses the process.

If Fourth Yeltsin happens as in the book, the result is a disaster for Grayson. While the ships would still be there, it is less likely that Thurston will be suckered into getting into beam range of six Grayson SDs without one of Honor's signature deception schemes bamboozling him into it. Thurston's attack force may still end up badly damaged, but Grayson's shiny new industrial base is going to be a wreck and they'll have to start all over. The "see what happens when we send ships out of the system" effect may well deter Grayson from ever sending expeditionary fleets out to support the Alliance for the rest of the war.

...

Without Honor running the Q-ship squadron there's a good chance Warnecke stays in power until someone actually has time to clean up Silesia. And the Peep commerce raiding operation under Giscard will probably be successful or at least semi-successful, rather than being effectively defeated. But up until her capture, the biggest single effect Honor had was Fourth Yeltsin.

[Q99]

Shouldn't affect MDMs or ghost rider, so they gain overwhelming advantage sooner or later.

I'm trying to remember some of the prequel stories, weren't those technologies actually in early development by then? They would have been deployed pretty much when they actually did no matter what happens to Honor.

Yes, a lot of the technology was advancing, but there was...

Oh right, I remember, specifically the concept of pod*naughts* that she pressed for. Pods had been in use for awhile, and Hemphill was pushing to try something radical, but White Haven and others were hitting the breaks on it until Honor said otherwise.

Also the first test-bed for the podnaught concept was Honor's Q-ship, which also may not have been tested, or at least not in real combat, if her political foes didn't want to send her to what they viewed as junk-work.

Hm, super-LACs were a result of Grayson tech, and there was some luck in the superLAC carrier ship actually got to see combat, but that wasn't Honor...


So, Haven's still going to have multiple super-techs come on line essentially one after another, and eventually you'll have Apollo, but the Podnaughts specifically might not come into play until later.

[TOSDOC]

I think the story would go to Alice Truman.

With Fearless and Troubadour destroyed, Truman would be the senior surviving member of the taskforce. Mayhew is no dummy, and with Truman present in the system while White Haven is sweeping up Masada, I think Mayhew would latch onto her as both a woman and a starship commander proven in the Battle of Blackbird, having been made familiar with her before the battle when they spoke following the assassination attempt. He would play on her loyalty and friendship to Honor in order to offer her her own Steading and continue to pass his reforms.

Truman is a solid tactician and ship handler, and a stout supporter of the pod missile systems and the LAC's, so she could have taken Honor's place on the WDB. As a Steadholder she could be the one present instead at Fourth Yeltsin, and the battle could play out just as it did. She could then follow up by taking a leave with the RMN to head up the Q-ship squadron herself, being a proponent of the test-bed of those new weapon systems. I don't think she would have approached Warnecke the same way, but how she could have solved it instead is intriguing.

Even if McKeon's ships are still captured, they don't necessarily have to escape in order for Buttercup to succeed, and Truman played a large part in planning and leading that Operation. It was Honor's influence and position that helped the Queen decide she should visit Grayson; with Honor dead, the Queen doesn't necessarily pay a state visit, and the Masadan assassination goes nowhere, allowing Buttercup to result in a defeat for Haven instead of a political stalemate.

Truman's also a candidate (besides Henke or Mac if he survived) to adopt Nimitz assuming the 'cat lived through Second Yeltsin (the books state he could survive in his life support module if it didn't suffer a direct hit). Although her link with Nimitz might not be as exceptional without the Meyerdahl modification, it could still be potent enough to fill in the story as it has otherwise unfolded.

[Simon_Jester]

I think the story would go to Alice Truman.

With Fearless and Troubadour destroyed, Truman would be the senior surviving member of the taskforce. Mayhew is no dummy, and with Truman present in the system while White Haven is sweeping up Masada, I think Mayhew would latch onto her as both a woman and a starship commander proven in the Battle of Blackbird, having been made familiar with her before the battle when they spoke following the assassination attempt. He would play on her loyalty and friendship to Honor in order to offer her her own Steading and continue to pass his reforms.

Hm. I don't know if the Keys would support that- Truman doesn't have quite the same halo Honor does after Second Yeltsin. If Mayhew were very clever he might pull it off, I suppose.

Truman would actually probably handle that with greater aplomb than Honor because she didn't have that stupid "I'm not a politician" self image problem tripping her up. She knew how to maneuver, and came from several generations of naval family that were, I suspect, at least mildly aristocratic.

Truman is a solid tactician and ship handler, and a stout supporter of the pod missile systems and the LAC's, so she could have taken Honor's place on the WDB.

Easily- or have done better.

As a Steadholder she could be the one present instead at Fourth Yeltsin, and the battle could play out just as it did. She could then follow up by taking a leave with the RMN to head up the Q-ship squadron herself, being a proponent of the test-bed of those new weapon systems. I don't think she would have approached Warnecke the same way, but how she could have solved it instead is intriguing.

Truman was already attached to the squadron... although to be fair, that was the result of her RMN assignment. Had she been an admiral in foreign service I'm not sure she'd have gotten the same situation lined up the same way. 'Historically' Honor took the Q-ship assignment because she was almost pathetically eager to return to RMN service at all after effectively writing off her career in her vendetta against Young.

Even if McKeon's ships are still captured, they don't necessarily have to escape in order for Buttercup to succeed, and Truman played a large part in planning and leading that Operation. It was Honor's influence and position that helped the Queen decide she should visit Grayson; with Honor dead, the Queen doesn't necessarily pay a state visit, and the Masadan assassination goes nowhere, allowing Buttercup to result in a defeat for Haven instead of a political stalemate.

Definitely an interesting possibility. I wonder what happens then...

Truman's also a candidate (besides Henke or Mac if he survived) to adopt Nimitz assuming the 'cat lived through Second Yeltsin (the books state he could survive in his life support module if it didn't suffer a direct hit). Although her link with Nimitz might not be as exceptional without the Meyerdahl modification, it could still be potent enough to fill in the story as it has otherwise unfolded.

I don't think that's a likely outcome. Aside from the high probability of Nimitz committing suicide should he outlive Honor, there's no particular indication of Truman as 'tasty' to treecats.

I think in this alt-hist we end up with Alice Truman distinguishing herself as one of White Haven's junior admirals during Buttercup, being the main 'field' naval support backing Hemphill's weapons development programs, and with Manticore pursuing a decisive victory against Haven...

...But with the Manticoran relationship with treecats being a long way behind where it would be if Honor were involved. Such that when the Mesans show up they don't have that "here is how to spot people infected with mind control nanites" thing going for them.

[TOSDOC]

If Mayhew were very clever he might pull it off, I suppose.

I think he's clever enough. It was a foreigner and a woman who fit his plans, one who would be reasonably accepted by Graysons for defending their world. Mayhew definitely develops a track record for offering similar individuals a stake on Grayson.

Truman would actually probably handle that with greater aplomb than Honor because she didn't have that stupid "I'm not a politician" self image problem tripping her up. She knew how to maneuver, and came from several generations of naval family that were, I suspect, at least mildly aristocratic.

Good point.

I don't think that's a likely outcome. Aside from the high probability of Nimitz committing suicide should he outlive Honor, there's no particular indication of Truman as 'tasty' to treecats.

I admit that last paragraph was reaching. But I thought it no more unlikely than White Haven's own convenient adoption by Samantha.

I think in this alt-hist we end up with Alice Truman distinguishing herself as one of White Haven's junior admirals during Buttercup, being the main 'field' naval support backing Hemphill's weapons development programs, and with Manticore pursuing a decisive victory against Haven...

Thank you for reminding me. I meant to list Truman as a likely protege for White Haven in my last post as well.

[Irbis]

How does the series continue without its eponymous Hero? how badly does manticore suffer without her? Could other competent manticorian or grayson officers done the same things as her? As well?

You mean without her having constant plot shield the size of Death Star that let her constantly engage ships/fleets two grades heavier and win?

First change, without her being kicked to command a squadron of Q-ships with MDMs whoever gets to command it instead might squander their capabilities, and even if he/she is as good as HH they would most likely not have pull at White Haven and he goes on to scrap/hold back new programs out of his irrational hatred for Sonja Hemphill.

This might lead to war being longer and McQueen actually becoming Napoleon by finishing her coup preparations. Of curse, this might lead to no assassination (unless it was autonomous operation already underway) and war ending sooner (if McQueen wouldn't sue for peace anyway using regime change and stalemate to get cease fire).

On the other side, you have Haven officers in good standing with HH, such as Theisman or the crew of Haven ship she saved. Without her, alternative command of Q-ships might decide to kill them, greatly weakening Haven, or be less successful opposing them, leading to them achieving higher rank faster and having no sympathy to Manticore. Hmm.

Also, there is effect on Manticore officers - good chunk of future admirals would die with HH, but I guess these might be down to Honor playing favouritism and someone else, equally good, would have been promoted instead. Or not, and the replacements would be much worse.

Ironically, if HH is dead, and Young still gets blamed for wavering, he might be the one to be reassigned to command Q-ships as punishment and farm all the glory that went with it (getting them delayed even further as Manticoran brass would hate him and do opposite to his recommendations)

Hm, super-LACs were a result of Grayson tech, and there was some luck in the superLAC carrier ship actually got to see combat, but that wasn't Honor...

Wasn't that first tested by Q-ships too? And everyone until then saying Hemphill was mad for putting any trust in obsolete, useless class of ships? Also, Truman, commander of that ship, was in Q-ship force to accompany HH, without her in command whoever gets the helm might have been too conservative with them.

Conservative enough to not kill admiral Kellet, thus no retconned-in order to disperse, Haven gets to keep excellent commander and whole fleet of battleships, LACs are beaten back, get no glowing recommendation and might be pushed back with these 'magazine space wasting' MDMs. McQueen gets good look at them and decides to pour every resource into matching new LACs and long ranged missiles as there is no contrived 'LACs hit all sensors plus recording backups' plot anymore...

I think the story would go to Alice Truman.

That assuming she isn't unofficially blamed for being part of operation that resulted in total loss of whole task force and sidelined (or simply left as commander of cruiser and have little influence on later events). Did Truman had protectors anywhere near HH level, even given her background? Also, wasn't she very reluctant to cooperate with Grayson to the degree HH did?

[TOSDOC]

I think the story would go to Alice Truman.

That assuming she isn't unofficially blamed for being part of operation that resulted in total loss of whole task force and sidelined (or simply left as commander of cruiser and have little influence on later events). Did Truman had protectors anywhere near HH level, even given her background? Also, wasn't she very reluctant to cooperate with Grayson to the degree HH did?

Oh, please, get real. She didn't lose her ship, was ordered out of the system by the senior commanding officer present, and came back with a taskforce which saved Grayson in time and saw to the Queen's overriding mission according to Courvosier, to come back with a treaty. There's no reason to court-martial her, much less find her guilty. White Haven himself was impressed with her actions, which is good enough protection for me. Why should Truman's own career change just because Honor died?

And her cooperation with the Graysons could be inspired by Honor's own actions against Thunder, just as Honor was influenced to work with the Graysons and defend their world despite how they treated her, due to Courvosier's inspiratory cooperation with the GSN.

[Irbis]

Oh, please, get real. She didn't lose her ship, was ordered out of the system by the senior commanding officer present, and came back with a taskforce which saved Grayson in time and saw to the Queen's overriding mission according to Courvosier, to come back with a treaty. There's no reason to court-martial her, much less find her guilty.

Can you read what I said again? Slowly this time? I said unofficially. As in, not blamed but left with lingering curse and sidelined, never promoted until overdue. See fucking Andrea Jaruwalski for nearly identical case.

White Haven himself was impressed with her actions, which is good enough protection for me. Why should Truman's own career change just because Honor died?

Because, gee, it's no longer a big victory but total loss of whole task force, loss that possibly could have been averted if her ship wasn't damaged and stayed on station? Really, I need to explain to you that even if she was totally innocent of the above it's no longer commendation but big black mark in eyes of her peers?

And her cooperation with the Graysons could be inspired by Honor's own actions against Thunder, just as Honor was influenced to work with the Graysons and defend their world despite how they treated her, due to Courvosier's inspiratory cooperation with the GSN.

You mean the actions that Truman herself protested? And that is assuming she doesn't hold a grudge against Grayson as this worthless fundie rock that just killed her best friend in pointless ages old vendetta.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh, please, get real. She didn't lose her ship, was ordered out of the system by the senior commanding officer present, and came back with a taskforce which saved Grayson in time and saw to the Queen's overriding mission according to Courvosier, to come back with a treaty. There's no reason to court-martial her, much less find her guilty.

Can you read what I said again? Slowly this time? I said unofficially. As in, not blamed but left with lingering curse and sidelined, never promoted until overdue. See fucking Andrea Jaruwalski for nearly identical case.

White Haven himself was impressed with her actions, which is good enough protection for me. Why should Truman's own career change just because Honor died?

Because, gee, it's no longer a big victory but total loss of whole task force, loss that possibly could have been averted if her ship wasn't damaged and stayed on station? Really, I need to explain to you that even if she was totally innocent of the above it's no longer commendation but big black mark in eyes of her peers?

1)Not a total loss of Task Force. Apollo survived and was canonically repairable. It's Andy Venizelos' command in Field of Dishonor.
2)As TOSDOC pointed out and you didn't refute. The Mission was a complete success. The mission was to get the Grayson Alliance. The Grayson alliance was got. Strategically, that far outweighs the loss of a cruiser and two destroyers.

And her cooperation with the Graysons could be inspired by Honor's own actions against Thunder, just as Honor was influenced to work with the Graysons and defend their world despite how they treated her, due to Courvosier's inspiratory cooperation with the GSN.

You mean the actions that Truman herself protested? And that is assuming she doesn't hold a grudge against Grayson as this worthless fundie rock that just killed her best friend in pointless ages old vendetta.

Truman was not Honor's best friend at all. There's no indication they knew each other before the Grayson operation AFAIK. And her only objection was defending the Grayson was revealing the FTL comm, which was on the official secrets list.

[Crazedwraith]

Hmm...

Supposing Honor dies at the end of Honor of the Queen...

Hm. Well, Sarnow gets a new flag captain. Honor played a considerable role in that battle by making suggestions. For instance, I think using the decoy superdreadnoughts to temporarily deter Chin's squadron from pressing the attack was her idea. Overall, Sarnow's no slouch but his battlecruisers might well be get fried anyway, because Parks would have divided his forces the same way in The Short Victorious War. Sarnow getting wounded would probably still happen; a less dynamic captain might well not have taken command and effectively run the last phase of the battle herself as Honor did.

It is possible that the repair base at Hancock would have been destroyed in the resulting battle. That might have ramifications- it might result in the Manticoran flank being weaker up there, and making Alizon/Zanzibar/Wherever a more inviting target for Peep raids later in the war. It is also likely that Sarnow ends up dead or a POW; either way the RMN loses a good admiral along with the already-missing good captain.

On the other hand, the worst another Captain could do is scatter the squadron when Young did in canon and not sucker Chin into being unable to avoid Danislav's dreadnoughts but canonically Parks arrived back on just too late to avoid pouncing on Rollin's main force. Which means he can't be that far behind Danislav, easy enough to pounce on Chin then. The battle may end up more or less that same. Perhaps more casualties in the squadron and Danislav's units. Less on the Peep's side but more or less the same result.

I actually just read SVW when writing the Op because it occured to me, a lot of the cool tricks in the battle. The parasite pods, the EW drones and the mines, are developed and refined by other people. honor's contribution is mostly, 'hey we have parasite pods and minelayers on site, lets use them.' EW drones and going in ballastic seem fairly standard tactics.

Honor is portrayed as competent in it but not greatly moreso than the rest of Sarnow's team.

If Fourth Yeltsin happens as in the book, the result is a disaster for Grayson. While the ships would still be there, it is less likely that Thurston will be suckered into getting into beam range of six Grayson SDs without one of Honor's signature deception schemes bamboozling him into it. Thurston's attack force may still end up badly damaged, but Grayson's shiny new industrial base is going to be a wreck and they'll have to start all over. The "see what happens when we send ships out of the system" effect may well deter Grayson from ever sending expeditionary fleets out to support the Alliance for the rest of the war.

Depends what Thurston does when an SD squadron openly comes for him. I can't remember from the book if he was likely to think 'I can swarm them with missiles and still win with losses' or 'oh shit my deception failed. run run run'. In the former case you're right in the latter, Fourth Yeltsin becomes an inconclusive draw.

Random aside, if that's Fourth Yeltsin. Third is the ambush Parnell wanders into? What's first and second yeltsin? Madrigal's last stand and Fearless Vs Thunder Of God?

Without Honor running the Q-ship squadron there's a good chance Warnecke stays in power until someone actually has time to clean up Silesia. And the Peep commerce raiding operation under Giscard will probably be successful or at least semi-successful, rather than being effectively defeated. But up until her capture, the biggest single effect Honor had was Fourth Yeltsin.

Does Warnecke matter in the grand scheme of things? Giscard though is going to tear them a new one.

[Terralthra]

Random aside, if that's Fourth Yeltsin. Third is the ambush Parnell wanders into? What's first and second yeltsin? Madrigal's last stand and Fearless Vs Thunder Of God?

Correct.
1st Yeltsin is Madrigal and the GSN vs. Saladin, Principality, and the Masadan Navy.
Battle of Blackbird is Fearless, Apollo, Troubadour, and the remnants of the GSN vs. Principality, the Masadan Navy, and the base defenses.
2nd Yeltsin is Fearless and Troubadour vs. Saladin.
3rd Yeltsin is Parnell's attack at the opening of the first war, where he got his ass handed to him by White Haven.
4th Yeltsin is Honor's SD squadron vs. Thurston (and Theisman).

[TOSDOC]

Oh, please, get real. She didn't lose her ship, was ordered out of the system by the senior commanding officer present, and came back with a taskforce which saved Grayson in time and saw to the Queen's overriding mission according to Courvosier, to come back with a treaty. There's no reason to court-martial her, much less find her guilty.

Can you read what I said again? Slowly this time? I said unofficially. As in, not blamed but left with lingering curse and sidelined, never promoted until overdue. See fucking Andrea Jaruwalski for nearly identical case.

White Haven himself was impressed with her actions, which is good enough protection for me. Why should Truman's own career change just because Honor died?

Because, gee, it's no longer a big victory but total loss of whole task force, loss that possibly could have been averted if her ship wasn't damaged and stayed on station? Really, I need to explain to you that even if she was totally innocent of the above it's no longer commendation but big black mark in eyes of her peers?

And her cooperation with the Graysons could be inspired by Honor's own actions against Thunder, just as Honor was influenced to work with the Graysons and defend their world despite how they treated her, due to Courvosier's inspiratory cooperation with the GSN.

You mean the actions that Truman herself protested? And that is assuming she doesn't hold a grudge against Grayson as this worthless fundie rock that just killed her best friend in pointless ages old vendetta.

I think you should read what you wrote slowly.

The task force was NOT a total loss, as was pointed out by CrazedWraith.

Truman's ship was damaged while under Honor's squadron command, and Theisman's surprise attack did not ultimately result in a condemnation of Truman's actions over the course of the books.

Truman was ordered out with the wounded on her own ship with Honor's blessings, and provided with dispatches for the Admiralty concerning the events in Yeltsin, which likely included Honor's own list of commendations for her officers' conduct given she knew she was going into what was a hopeless battle. Jaruwalski, in a not so nearly identical case, was publicly berated by Santino, and Santino's dispatches to the Admiralty included a scathing but unspecific report on her conduct.

Really, the only thing Truman could really be busted for was breaking regs by playing with her hyper generator. We know she wasn't. Honor living or dying doesn't really affect that.

Go back and read the book again. Honor decked Houseman and was knighted for her subsequent actions. Truman's own protest over revealing military secrets was perfectly responsible of her, but their revelation would fall on Honor, living or dead, as the senior squadron commander. And the only worthless fundie rock I was reading about was Masada.

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, please, get real. She didn't lose her ship, was ordered out of the system by the senior commanding officer present, and came back with a taskforce which saved Grayson in time and saw to the Queen's overriding mission according to Courvosier, to come back with a treaty. There's no reason to court-martial her, much less find her guilty. White Haven himself was impressed with her actions, which is good enough protection for me. Why should Truman's own career change just because Honor died?

...

Eh, Irbis has been reading some bizarre parallel universe version of the novels, this much has been obvious for the last few years. Don't worry about it.

Depends what Thurston does when an SD squadron openly comes for him. I can't remember from the book if he was likely to think 'I can swarm them with missiles and still win with losses' or 'oh shit my deception failed. run run run'. In the former case you're right in the latter, Fourth Yeltsin becomes an inconclusive draw.

He's got a People's Republic political officer looking over his shoulder; he's not going to be able to justify refusing to engage the Grayson SDs at four to one odds.

Of course, his ships probably would have a pretty good chance of engaging and defeating the Grayson squadron in a missile duel. Especially given that the quality of their drill and preparation would probably be somewhat lower without a crack RMN officer who happens to be a steadholder senior in Grayson service handy to get them into shape. And given that with time to think about it Thurston could do things like recall (or never detach) Theisman's twelve ships and give himself an even more overwhelming tonnage advantage.

Random aside, if that's Fourth Yeltsin. Third is the ambush Parnell wanders into? What's first and second yeltsin? Madrigal's last stand and Fearless Vs Thunder Of God?

Yes.

Without Honor running the Q-ship squadron there's a good chance Warnecke stays in power until someone actually has time to clean up Silesia. And the Peep commerce raiding operation under Giscard will probably be successful or at least semi-successful, rather than being effectively defeated. But up until her capture, the biggest single effect Honor had was Fourth Yeltsin.

Does Warnecke matter in the grand scheme of things? Giscard though is going to tear them a new one.

Warnecke matters a lot if you happen to be on the one planet he's ruling as a tyrant, or a victim of his piratical 'space navy.' I'm not saying it's a universe-shaking Big Deal, but it's a consequence that's measurable and significant and would affect millions of people.

Also, I am not so sure about the Q-ships. The ability of a Q-ship to engage in murder-suicide against a PN battlecruiser is pretty much independent of Honor's tactical abilities- and the risk of losing battlecruisers against relatively cheap Q-ships (plus enraging the Andermani) was what ultimately deterred Giscard from pressing his strategy. Since it was clearly not working, as Manticore did not need to divert capital ships to commerce protection just to handle the battlecruisers.