Which curse is the most unforgivable

[Captain Seafort]

in the goble of fire the imposter version of mad eye moody used them in class as a teaching tool and no one batted an eye.

Because the term "unforgivable" specifically applies to their use against humans.

[LaCroix]

What gray areas? From what I remember a curse being 'unforgivable' was pretty damned digital. You use one and they catch you, you go to Azkaban, no questions asked.

I meant in the debating going on in the thread. What the hogwarts staff consider 'unforgivable' and the viewers debate about it are two different things. besides, in the goble of fire the imposter version of mad eye moody used them in class as a teaching tool and no one batted an eye.

He actually tells them that he got a special permit from the Ministry to demonstrate these curses to the students. Which he does. On a spider.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well there are clearly exceptions. Harry uses both Crucio and Imperio in book seven, and even McGonagall uses Imperio. No mention is ever made of their being punished for it. If it is indeed an "automatic life sentence" then Harry shouldn't have been around for that "nineteen years later" bit.

I do wonder about the "willing someone to die" bit. IN the HP verse murder is the supreme act of evil that rips the soul apart, and yet Dumbledore didn't expect that to be an issue for Snape and his mercy-killing. Snape clearly had the intent to kill Dumbledore, but since we know the reasons behind it, can we call that an "evil" intent? If so, should he have been thrown in Azkaban if he had survived?

[The Romulan Republic]

I think their are different standards for war than for ordinary crime (the Ministry authorized use of Unforgivable Curses by Aurors during the first war with Voldemort). And of course, its easy to get a pardon when you're a hero of the winning side, as corrupt as that may be. For that matter, the Ministry has a history of leniency to former Death Eaters who helped them (Snape, Karakarov), so they would probably be lenient on their own side as well, unless the post-war Ministry operates very differently in this area. And Harry might have been able to plead extenuating circumstances because of the piece of Voldemort's soul in him, potentially influencing him.

[cmdrjones]

in the goble of fire the imposter version of mad eye moody used them in class as a teaching tool and no one batted an eye.

Because the term "unforgivable" specifically applies to their use against humans.

point taken, thanks

[Captain Seafort]

I think their are different standards for war than for ordinary crime (the Ministry authorized use of Unforgivable Curses by Aurors during the first war with Voldemort). And of course, its easy to get a pardon when you're a hero of the winning side, as corrupt as that may be. For that matter, the Ministry has a history of leniency to former Death Eaters who helped them (Snape, Karakarov), so they would probably be lenient on their own side as well, unless the post-war Ministry operates very differently in this area. And Harry might have been able to plead extenuating circumstances because of the piece of Voldemort's soul in him, potentially influencing him.

On top of all that, the unforgivables weren't unforgivables at the time - they were all entirely legal and part of the standard Hogwarts curriculum. That doesn't apply to time time he had a crack at Bellatrix with the Cruciatus, but either did anyone see him throw that one.

[The Romulan Republic]

I suppose their is a clever irony to the idea that the Death Eaters' own laws gave their opponents a legal justification for using the Unforgivable Curses. Though really, I would expect the Shaklebolt Ministry to ruthlessly repeal legislation passed during the preceding year.

Edit: Actually, Harry Potter wizard politics is very interesting. Its a pity we don't get more information on it in the books. I'd pay Rowling good money to write a Harry Potter political thriller.

[Captain Seafort]

I suppose their is a clever irony to the idea that the Death Eaters' own laws gave their opponents a legal justification for using the Unforgivable Curses. Though really, I would expect the Shaklebolt Ministry to ruthlessly repeal legislation passed during the preceding year.

Of course, but I can't see Kingsley pulling dirty tricks like making the repeal retrospective, especially as doing so would have pulled Harry in.

[The Romulan Republic]

Perhaps.

Shaklebolt's actually one of my favourite characters from the books. For someone who's not around a great deal, he manages a lot of awesomeness in the course of three books.

[Crazedwraith]

in the goble of fire the imposter version of mad eye moody used them in class as a teaching tool and no one batted an eye.

Because the term "unforgivable" specifically applies to their use against humans.

And he does use the imperio curse on the entire class.

[jwl]

Ghetto Edit: I did some research and will correct myself, that frame is called a "Veil" apparently, and Sirius is the only one to have gone through it as far as JKR mentions, although the setting it is in (middle of a small amphitheater) suggests a past function of wizard execution... a fairly useful one as it doesn't involve anybody using spells, just throw them through the Veil and you're done.

It was in the Department of Mysteries. No-one is going to use the Department of Mysteries for executions, the whole point was that everything there was top secret. The Veil was likely an experiment in contacting the dead and moved on, as harry heard voices in there of his parents.

On the note of Obliviate, I think there is more than one version of the curse: one that selectively removes memories, and one which just blasts all memories from the brain. The former is not necessarily immoral, the latter is.

[Batman]

I'm actually disputing that last one, depending on how it works (been a while since I read the books). Does it it really blast all memories, including knowing how to read, write, possibly ride a horse, languages, etc, or does it merely erase your memories of who you are and what happened in your life before but leaves you a functional (if bewildered) human being? Because the latter looks a lot like B5's 'Death of Personality' capital punishment which seems morally acceptable to me (more so than the death sentence because unlike that, it can actually be reversed).

[Captain Seafort]

I'm actually disputing that last one, depending on how it works (been a while since I read the books). Does it it really blast all memories, including knowing how to read, write, possibly ride a horse, languages, etc, or does it merely erase your memories of who you are and what happened in your life before but leaves you a functional (if bewildered) human being? Because the latter looks a lot like B5's 'Death of Personality' capital punishment which seems morally acceptable to me (more so than the death sentence because unlike that, it can actually be reversed).

Closer to the former than the latter - Lockhart ended up in a ward next to the Longbottoms when his attempt to obliviate Harry and Ron backfired on him.

[Batman]

Yeah, but was that a function of the spell or a side effect of it backfiring?

[Tribble]

Lockhart was planning on taking a piece of basilisk skin back up to the surface and tell everyone that he was too late to save Ginny and that the Harry and Ron tragically lost their minds at sight of her mangled body. So ya, it was an intended effect of the spell. I don't think he specifically mentioned a spell name though, apart from saying it was a memory charm.

[SMJB]

I'm mainly retreading old ground here, but yeah, Imperio is clearly the worst. The other two, while bad, are cases of "artisanal" violence; you need to cast the spell anew every time you want to torture or kill anybody. With Imperio, you can take control of the President of the United States and make him fire off the nuclear arsenal, causing WWIII; "mass-produced" violence. And that's far from the only thing you can do with it, either; Imperio is extremely freaking flexible. And then there's the fact that you can Imperio someone into doing the other curses (making it by definition worse than they are) and, presumably, make them use Imperio themselves...

Long story short, Imperio is an unending cornucopia of unspeakable horrors, while the others are just mundane horrors.