Bugs or Toads (RAR!)

[Zor]

In this scenario ROB shows you a planet about 2,200 light years from sol. It is notable for being the nearest planet to earth on which sapient life evolved and is also notable in that it has done so twice from two radically different strains. Long story short this planet has three fairly substantial continents which are separated by at least 1,627 km of ocean, on these continents two major groups of land dwelling animals evolved (one evolving first, the other evolving after an extinction event some 83 million years ago wiped out most of the first clade on one of the continents leaving sea creatures to move inland and fill the gaps), each one eventually producing a sapient species, which are now locked in a brutal war. Both these species have numerous names for themselves, often unpronounceable, but for our sake we will refer to them as The Bugs and The Toads.

[*]The Bugs: The name 'Bug' refers more to the behavior of this species than their appearance or what they call themselves. In truth the bugs are more like vertibrates than insects in terms of broad physiology despite the fact that they are hexipods and have three eyes and horizontal jaws. Roughly speaking, buts are shaped like a centaur with a short upper torso and a long prehensile tail in the back. The main reason why they are called "bugs" is that they're eusocial like ants, bees or termites. Bug society is based around Hives, each hive having as many as five million individuals ranging in size from that of a large dog to that of a pony, leaving aside queens which can weigh several tonnes and lay an egg every minute or so through their adult life with large hives have multiple queens. Each egg takes abut three months to hatch, which hatches into a hatchling which will grow into an adult over a period of eight local years (322 days). Besides the queens are numerous castes of bugs including artisan, scribe, nurse, worker, farmer, soldiers and administrator. The bugs do not exist as part of a collective consciousness, but are programmed to be collectively minded and thing first and foremost of the good of the Hive and their fellows. Each caste instinctively knows it's role in society, though instinct is supplemented by education and has no internal ambitions beyond excelling in their field and advancing the cause of their hive. Bug artisans are very detail oriented, able to level a lot of concentration on their tasks and are hardwired to be workaholics. Bug warriors are sharp eyed, able to multi-process, fast moving, durable, are highly defensive and have a willingness to die in battle which would make the IJA green with envy. Working for the exclusive benefit of one's self without regard for the good of the hive, let alone at it's expense, is alien and to them makes as much sense as having one's rear left leg trying to eat one's right arm. Competition between hives is considered normal. The Bug's central government is an Federation with a federal government of specially trained administrators trained to act for the benefits of all hives, though historically they were divided into warring hives and nations composed of blocks of hives. Now they are united under a central government.
[*]The Toads: Again the name 'Toad' is a shorthand more tied to behavior than their appearance. Toads bear more of a resemblance to 1.5 meter long six limed starfish than any terrestrial amphibian, though they do have Toadlike skin. Like terrestrial amphibians they reproduce by laying eggs in water, more specifically they lay lots of them. An adult female toad lays a clutch between 3 to 10 thousand eggs every local year (322 days). These hatch into Toadspawn (an aquatic early phase of their life) which then metamorphose into frog size Toadlets (basically a miniaturized version of the adult form) after six months which then grow over a period of four to five local years grow into sapient adult toads. The nature of their life cycle means that most toads never live to maturity and ultimately has led the toads to adopt a society of extreme individualism, hyper competitiveness and Sociopathic. While Toads do form groups and are capable of forming personal relationships Toads don't see other Toads as having inherent value and is generally only valued as far as they can be utilized. To adult Toads, Toad Eggs, Toadspawn and Toadlets are considered delicacies and young toadlets eat their younger kin. Toadlets deemed promising are collected, kept separate and allowed to mature and are given a position in toad society based on their initial aptitudes, of which about half are ultimately culled. For adult Toads, Toad society is a ruthless meritocracy though they are treated as less disposable than toadlets (after all it takes time and resources to raise up a Toad to adulthood). Young adult toads are considered indentured servants to their masters for the next five years of their lives as repayment for raising them up. After that they are considered free to strike out on their own or to try to rise up in the internal hierarchy of their home household. As time goes on and they prove their worth they are promoted and rise in position in toad society, with a select few being named heirs to the ruling elite. It is in the nature of Toads to toady up to superiors and look down on inferiors as tools with legs and voices that, if they put up too much of a fuss, are to be culled, though they are wary of uprisings. Personal associations generally get favorable treatment. Recently the toads have united in their own Federation.

The war that these two species have been fighting has been going on for some time. Both the Toads and the Bugs evolved on different continents and only came into contact about seven hundred years ago when a bug exploration ship attempting to circumnavigate their world found the Toad continent, returned to it's home hive to report back and convinced them to launch a colonization effort into this strange new world populated by "clever animals". Though they did manage to set up a new hive on the Toad Continent an alliance of Toad city states eventually managed to overwhelm it and then copied the Bug's sailing ship design and launched their own invasion of the Bug continent, which failed. This sparked a series of on again off again wars which have been going on for seven centuries, gradually escalating as ship design improved. Now both the Toads and the Bugs are at a 19th century level of technology and are continuing to advance. Fanatical armies of Bug warriors armed with rifle and cannon face against hordes of Toad Infantry armed with muskets and spears desperate for the prospects of promotion that comes with it. Both species are evenly matched.

What ROB offers you is to give one of these two species an edge, basically ROB will give one side an abundance of good luck in battles over the period of a couple of years, enough to tilt the scales in their favor and letting either The Bugs or The Toads gain the upper hand and over a period of a couple of decades roll back and ultimately defeat the enemy. Both the Bugs and the Toads have been considering the possibility of keeping some Toads or Bugs alive afterwards and making use of them, but both of them are convinced that the civilizations that the other species has created needs to end. Afterwards these species will continue to develop technologically and will eventually begin to expand into the stars. If humanity manages to survive long enough to begin interstellar expansion it will eventually come into contact with either Toad or Bug spacecraft, even if humanity has a 200 year lead in technological development.

So which species would you give the edge to?

Note: To those who say "I wants both of dem extinct Humanity furck yearh!" or similar, you are to be dropped off in contested territory between the Bug and the Toad states on the planet's third contested continent. He'll give the edge to the species who captures you first.

Zor

[Adam Reynolds]

How do you come up with these scenarios?

Anyway, there really isn't a solid moral question here as both groups will exterminate the other. I feel like the bugs have a slight advantage in a war due to their more structured society and their willingness to sacrifice for the hive. In the case of real life insects, this is generally because they are genetically identical. Is this also true for this race?

For a sentient insect race it would also be likely that their queens would be politically dominant.

In terms of humanity possibly interacting with them, neither group is ideal, though any interaction would be unlikely without FTL.

[madd0ct0r]

Hmm, the society they have now isn't the one humanity will face. Back in the equivalent period we had slavery, the conquistadors and brutal wars of conquest.

The question is which one may be more peaceful? I'm going to put my money on the toads.

Trade beats war if you value your own skin

[Adam Reynolds]

Trade beats war if you value your own skin

This is an interesting issue. I wonder what that insectoid race would do if they ever gained nuclear weapons?

More generally it is interesting that these two races are on the selfish/cooperative extreme as compared to humanity who generally falls in the middle.

The idea of insect species and humanity going to war over a miscommunication is a frequent one in science fiction. Ender's Game, Starship Troopers and Mass Effect(exempting the humanity part) all featured this plot. Though interestingly the Rachni wars were started by the salarians, who are amphibians. So that conflict actually loosely resembles this one in a sense.

[Purple]

As much as the insects are my favorite in this I'd want them dead and gone if humanity is going to have a shot in this. I'd rather we fight a race of selfish bastards who we can turn on one another with promises of profit (something that the ants would newer have thought to do) than an enemy that we actually have to defeat by our own effort. And do note that when I say "fight" I don't nesecerily mean a war. Any competition for resources is going to have us coming out on top because the frogs are only united by an enemy they can't reason with.

[Starglider]

Both species are evenly matched.

Really? You've given the bugs major physiological advantages ('sharp eyed, able to multi-process, fast moving, durable' vs no stated advantages for the toads), they have huge psychological advantages (especially for conducting warfare), they are probably much less dependent on freshwater supplies, and on top of that more advanced technology and a much more stable and advanced political alliance. I don't see how the toads could possibly win without deus ex machina; even if they have a huge numerical advantage (which you didn't state) it wouldn't count for much once bug technology reaches 20th century equivalent.

How do you come up with these scenarios?

Oh, he likes to do fantasy versions of socialism vs capitalism every couple of months. Last time it was 'vote to let the technosocialist rationalists invade, conquer and genocide all the feudalist mages'. Annoyingly (for Zor) he made the non-socialist side a bit too sympathetic in that one, so this time the individualist scum have as few redeeming features as possible. Yes, even though with these kind of alien psychologies analogy to human politics shouldn't be relevant.

[Adam Reynolds]

Both species are evenly matched.

Really? You've given the bugs major physiological advantages ('sharp eyed, able to multi-process, fast moving, durable' vs no stated advantages for the toads), they have huge psychological advantages (especially for conducting warfare), they are probably much less dependent on freshwater supplies, and on top of that more advanced technology and a much more stable and advanced political alliance. I don't see how the toads could possibly win without deus ex machina; even if they have a huge numerical advantage (which you didn't state) it wouldn't count for much once bug technology reaches 20th century equivalent.

Actually from what he stated as to the underlying history, I would suggest it is the opposite. The bugs were clearly the first to evolve, with the toads filling in a gap in which the bugs died off due to some sort of extinction event. This should also indicate that the bugs are superior in terms of intelligence as they had been sentient for a longer period.

The only possible advantage I could see for the toads it that they might be superior in a naval environment. But given that naval battles don't really win wars, I fail to see how they could win in the end.

Oh, he likes to do fantasy versions of socialism vs capitalism every couple of months. Last time it was 'vote to let the technosocialist rationalists invade, conquer and genocide all the feudalist mages'. Annoyingly (for Zor) he made the non-socialist side a bit too sympathetic in that one, so this time the individualist scum have as few redeeming features as possible. Yes, even though with these kind of alien psychologies analogy to human politics shouldn't be relevant.

Then there was also the theocratic dictatorship versus his rationalist Republic state, without even a question of which was worth supporting. That was the modern guns versus modern trucks debate.

[Zor]

Actually from what he stated as to the underlying history, I would suggest it is the opposite. The bugs were clearly the first to evolve, with the toads filling in a gap in which the bugs died off due to some sort of extinction event. This should also indicate that the bugs are superior in terms of intelligence as they had been sentient for a longer period.

The ancestors of The Bugs moved onto land first and spread over all three continents. Then an extinction event happened (more specifically an asteroid) and hit one of the continents pretty bad. In the aftermath members of a water dwelling clade moved in.

Imagine if the KT event wiped out all vertebrates on a small continent in the middle of the pacific ocean on which a group of octopuses moved out of the sea and evolved lungs, establishing themselves as dominant on that continent. That's pretty much how the story of the Toad's ancestors.

The only possible advantage I could see for the toads it that they might be superior in a naval environment. But given that naval battles don't really win wars, I fail to see how they could win in the end.

Toads reach maturity more quickly than bugs and usually have a numbers advantage. They also have the advantage of being radially symmetric, unless a Toad infantryman's been amputated recently s/he has no flanks. Toads are also less specialized than Bugs are, a Bug Artisan is a very poor soldier who's first instinct in regards to violence is to run away. They only reliably fight if their tails are backed into a corner.

For a sentient insect race it would also be likely that their queens would be politically dominant.

No, Administrators are dominant in this society. Queens lay eggs and that's it. In an actual insect hive each individual has instincts for a specific role in the hive and follows them rather than being told what to do by superiors. As these bugs are a good deal smarter than a Terran ant, eventually a caste of generalists emerged who's function is to administrate affairs developed.

Zor