The Machine in "Person of Interest"

[Marikina]

http://personofinterest.wikia.com/wiki/The_Machine

The realism of an AI such as the Machine existing aside, what are the level of resources required to pull off the kind of work that it does on a regular basis?

[Adam Reynolds]

The realism of an AI such as the Machine existing aside, what are the level of resources required to pull off the kind of work that it does on a regular basis?

In what sense? In terms of data sources, it seems to take in everything generated in New York. In flashbacks, we saw that it could track Finch through a variety of security cameras(with enough accuracy to count cards) and at one point even a webcam. Other shots show wide angle security cameras and NYPD cruiser cameras. It also took in credit card data and the corresponding receipts. In another flashback, we saw that it identified a traitor by the fact that he used a particular gas station on a particular set of days. Finch also mentioned casually that he helped invent social networking to give The Machine more data. I have only watched the first two seasons, so I don't know how much more it can collect after having been freed at the end of season two.

It is interesting that in reality, there are two events in 2001 that led to the creation of the modern surveillance state. 9/11 is the obvious one, in which people were willing to give up privacy in the name of security. The second problem was that of the dotcom bust. When internet companies realized that had no metric to measure the manner in which their advertising worked, they realized that the most effective way to get it was to begin tracking their users. Google and Facebook achieve this by providing free services. The cost to users is the decrease in privacy.

The NSA could have never convinced people to post their personal information online. Facebook did. Amid all of the concerns about NSA surveillance, no one is bothered by the fact that they are giving up their personal information to companies. Finch and The Machine are at the intersection of those two ideas.

[Adam Reynolds]

To more directly answer the question, it would essentially require everything that the NSA collects, which is everything. The explanation of what that is requires a slight history lesson as Bruce Schneier points out. After 9/11, Bush gave the NSA the mandate never again. The term never is problematic because the only way to insure that something never happens is to know everything. So that is what the NSA has decided to do. Collect everything. The Machine is simply an effective way to analyze it.

There is something interesting and slightly disturbing in shows like Person of Interest or those with a similar focus like Burn Notice or Leverage. The problem is that they portray a world in which a small group(our central characters) are the only ones that people can turn to. Person of Interest justifies this by having a large portion of the NYPD corrupt. Burn Notice relies on vague justifications like that their client is being framed for a crime or that a crime hasn't happened yet. Or that their target is too connected and powerful for law enforcement to do anything(Leverage almost exclusively uses this premise while Burn Notice uses it fairly often).

Despite being more realistic, these shows are in this sense like superhero movies. The police/military/intelligence agencies exist as an often corrupt threat to our heroes. Trust is something that never ends well for superheroes. Captain America and Nick Fury trusted SHIELD and it turned out to be controlled by HYDRA, Iron Man trusted Obadiah Stane and had his ARC reactor ripped from his chest and was left for dead, The Avengers do largely trust each other, though even that will fall apart with next year's Captain America: Civil War. Batman trusted Miranda Tate and she turned out to be Talia al Ghul who literally stabbed him in the back.

What is slightly distrubing about this idea is that it implies that we would be better off with a world in which a group of elite criminal(what all of these characters ultimately are, even the superheroes) vigilantes took care of things rather than the government.

One thing that Person of Interest does better than many superhero stories is that it justifies the vigilantism with The Machine. In the Dark Knight there is a pivotal scene in the climax where Batman takes out an entire SWAT team because they were going to mistakenly shoot the hostages instead of the hostage takers as the apparent roles had been reversed. Even though the far more rational thing to do would be to warn the SWAT team of their mistake.

Person of Interest justifies this idea by having a system that tells our heroes enough about the truth to get them on the right path in a way that the police do not have. Because the source of this information is illegal, they cannot use it directly to do something like tell the police. But it still leads to the question of why Finch didn't give the information in such a way that the FBI could start using it. If the FBI had this ability wouldn't they use it? Especially since the FBI would be able to operate in more cities than just NYC. Even though they could not use the data directly to prosecute individuals, they could use it to find out who was involved in illegal activities.

[Marikina]

In what sense?

I mean in terms of hardware and power requirements. It seems to me that the scope of the Machine's responsibilities seems to be too immense for what appears to be (based on the season 2 finale) just one data center's worth of servers.

[Simon_Jester]

They'd have to be servers well in advance of anything we now know, OR the Machine would have to be an AI which has somehow made itself very, very good at compressing its functions to require less computing resources than we now believe to be possible.

In the latter case, the Machine is effectively uncontrollable for all the usual reasons that AI would be uncontrollable- we can't predict how much or how little code it needs to run. And since it clearly has access to every computer in the world via the Internet, if the Machine ever decides to stop informing its masters and start running the world, everyone is fucked.

[Gaidin]

What is slightly distrubing about this idea is that it implies that we would be better off with a world in which a group of elite criminal(what all of these characters ultimately are, even the superheroes) vigilantes took care of things rather than the government.

One thing that Person of Interest does better than many superhero stories is that it justifies the vigilantism with The Machine. In the Dark Knight there is a pivotal scene in the climax where Batman takes out an entire SWAT team because they were going to mistakenly shoot the hostages instead of the hostage takers as the apparent roles had been reversed. Even though the far more rational thing to do would be to warn the SWAT team of their mistake.

Person of Interest justifies this idea by having a system that tells our heroes enough about the truth to get them on the right path in a way that the police do not have. Because the source of this information is illegal, they cannot use it directly to do something like tell the police. But it still leads to the question of why Finch didn't give the information in such a way that the FBI could start using it. If the FBI had this ability wouldn't they use it? Especially since the FBI would be able to operate in more cities than just NYC. Even though they could not use the data directly to prosecute individuals, they could use it to find out who was involved in illegal activities.

I agree with the first three paragraphs so I just snipped them out. Hope that's ok. I think the term you're looking for is Robin Hood, not Super Hero. As far as the FBI, the reason the FBI never gets this information, even in an unofficial sense, is they're a legal law enforcement branch by definition. Sure, we see questionable decisions and attempts to get what they need from them all the time. But by definition and policy, they are law enforcement. But every character on that show has a theme to it. The only time the FBI shows up is when they're literally looking for a vigilante Man In the Suit who has been legitimately breaking the law even in his Robin Hood fashion. They try to run him down, they fail.

Every agent in the government that gets handed one of these numbers works like Finch and Reese, they just work on the high level targets. And every one of them is the kind of assassin whose existence would be flat out denied if they were caught or killed. Mission Impossible stuff.

Now, picture a law enforcement branch that gets handed one of these numbers for the kind of case Finch and Reese get. They now have to go to Federal Court and answer the question from a defense attorney, how in god's name did you know to be there watching my client? You just...got a number from a computer? It happened to be my client's social security number? So you started watching him? We either get new screeching about abuse of FISA court or, for drama's sake(more likely) people are getting let off for fruit of poisonous tree arguments.

[Adam Reynolds]

They'd have to be servers well in advance of anything we now know, OR the Machine would have to be an AI which has somehow made itself very, very good at compressing its functions to require less computing resources than we now believe to be possible.

That does seem to be the case.

In the latter case, the Machine is effectively uncontrollable for all the usual reasons that AI would be uncontrollable- we can't predict how much or how little code it needs to run. And since it clearly has access to every computer in the world via the Internet, if the Machine ever decides to stop informing its masters and start running the world, everyone is fucked.

Spoiler

At the end of season 2, it did. The good news is that The Machine was designed to value humanity in general over itself or any individual. Samaritan, a rival AI revealed in the third season, was not. From what I have read about the season 4 finale, they end up with The Machine on a single box after Samaritan tries to destroy it. Root actually refers to the conflict as two gods going to war.

I agree with the first three paragraphs so I just snipped them out. Hope that's ok. I think the term you're looking for is Robin Hood, not Super Hero. As far as the FBI, the reason the FBI never gets this information, even in an unofficial sense, is they're a legal law enforcement branch by definition. Sure, we see questionable decisions and attempts to get what they need from them all the time. But by definition and policy, they are law enforcement. But every character on that show has a theme to it. The only time the FBI shows up is when they're literally looking for a vigilante Man In the Suit who has been legitimately breaking the law even in his Robin Hood fashion. They try to run him down, they fail.

Every agent in the government that gets handed one of these numbers works like Finch and Reese, they just work on the high level targets. And every one of them is the kind of assassin whose existence would be flat out denied if they were caught or killed. Mission Impossible stuff.

This is true, but it is because the show is about a group of vigilantes. In reality, the FBI takes information from classified intelligence and surveillance sources all the time. FISA courts are completely secret to defense attorneys. In one amusing case after the Snowden documents were released, a defendant requested that the NSA surveillance data be used to exonerate him. Obviously they refused.

In the universe of the show, the CIA/NSA has stopped sharing with the FBI. In reality, as has been revealed by the Snowden documents, the FBI is just as culpable in mass surveillance, often being involved it allowing the legal mandate for it to progress through FISA courts.

Though it is amusing that in the show they seem to kill whistleblowers. In reality, if they did that, Snowden would be dead. As a side note, this also disproves 9/11 conspiracy theories. If the government was willing to kill that many Americans, then they would have also had no problem killing the creators of those conspiracy theories. The problem is not that the US government launched a false flag attack on 9/11. It is that they benefited from it.

Now, picture a law enforcement branch that gets handed one of these numbers for the kind of case Finch and Reese get. They now have to go to Federal Court and answer the question from a defense attorney, how in god's name did you know to be there watching my client? You just...got a number from a computer? It happened to be my client's social security number? So you started watching him? We either get new screeching about abuse of FISA court or, for drama's sake(more likely) people are getting let off for fruit of poisonous tree arguments.

There is no way they would reveal the method by which they discovered this. They would simply give a FISA warrant to the defense attorney and leave it at that. The exact sources used don't have to be revealed. They could file an appeal, but it would likely not get anywhere. You underestimate just how far ranging the authority of FISA courts is.

[Gaidin]

You're dodging the nature of the show's writing. Bravo?

[Marikina]

In the latter case, the Machine is effectively uncontrollable for all the usual reasons that AI would be uncontrollable- we can't predict how much or how little code it needs to run. And since it clearly has access to every computer in the world via the Internet, if the Machine ever decides to stop informing its masters and start running the world, everyone is fucked.

We already start to see something like this scenario with the Machine's "brother" Samaritan in seasons 3 and 4.

[Gaidin]

Well, the Machine was taught ethics as such. Samaritan was just, shall we say, turned on.

[TheDarkling]

Finch didn't make the Machine able to legally give information to the FBI because it wasn't supposed to be doing anything other than handing out the details of terrorists to Control. If he could have created an expert system which could preform the task rather than AI he would have done.

Harold is supremely paranoid about the implications of the Machine having any affect on human society, he locked it down to his one anti-terrorist goal and tried to ensure the machine was incapable of developing anything else. He wanted the Machine to be exactly that, a machine, he seems uncomfortable when it shows any attachment to him; he wants it to be coldly logical although adhering to the rules derived from Harold's ethics.
The Machine in Harold's view should be discrete from humanity and fulfil its one goal, the Machine actually honours Harold's wishes in this regard by never speaking to him directly after its' training phase.

The only reason that Team Machine run around solving crimes is because Harold's ethics/guilt wouldn't allow him to ignore the opportunity the numbers afforded him to save lives.

On the subject of the op, there is an episode where it is revealed that the Machine is employing people to type out its consciousness as a way around the 24 hr wipe Harold had put in place as a guard against it growing. You could probably derive some idea on what its code is from that, we also see the room it was housed in before it disappeared itself.

[Gaidin]

Also, as far as the idea of the show. The theme of the characters is that every major character worth naming is at some point breaking the law. The watcher as at some point picking a side. If you don't like it, well, what can I say? Control is blatantly breaking the law to protect America from high level threats and keep it hidden. Fitch and Reese and in the end Fusco and Carter are in the end blatantly breaking the law to help the felony level crimes that the Machine finds. And then Shaw joins, followed by Root. Fusco never really figures it out but whatever. We know what he starts as and we know his development. I love his character. The Senators and Representatives that are sliding in legislation that sort of kind of let Samaratan in place so it just takes over the world? Yea. Ok. Let's not get into what the Senator really knows. HR? A Branch of the New York Government that's outright corrupt? The Brotherhood and their gang war with Elias?

You are the watcher. Pick your side. But everyone. Corrupt. Everyone that's pure is an antagonist. Or is an antagonist until they corrupt themselves of their own free will. You're either a Robin Hood or a Sheriff of Nottingham.

It's a theme. Pick a side.

As far as the OP, there were quite a few episodes in the third season regarding research level technology that Decima Technology was trying to obtain research level technology where the team was to protect a person but Root(when not on the team) was to prevent Decima from obtaining the technology. Insofar as the theme of the show, it brought about, shall we say, conflicts. Insofar as the questions of the technology questions. There you go? I mean, they're hardly handing you diagrams of the circuitry, but as somebody watching a tv show you sort of see how this stuff works out of you sit down and watch it.

[Adam Reynolds]

On the subject of the op, there is an episode where it is revealed that the Machine is employing people to type out its consciousness as a way around the 24 hr wipe Harold had put in place as a guard against it growing. You could probably derive some idea on what its code is from that, we also see the room it was housed in before it disappeared itself.

Not really. That code was merely the day's memory. It wasn't the code that ran The Machine itself.

[TheDarkling]

On the subject of the op, there is an episode where it is revealed that the Machine is employing people to type out its consciousness as a way around the 24 hr wipe Harold had put in place as a guard against it growing. You could probably derive some idea on what its code is from that, we also see the room it was housed in before it disappeared itself.

Not really. That code was merely the day's memory. It wasn't the code that ran The Machine itself.

It's been a while since I saw it but I took it to be it's memories and the changes they wrought on it. I suppose it could have just reprocessed them all to re-derive the changes but that seems less efficient, although possibly mandated by whatever Harold did to it.