Doctor Who 9x07 - The Zygon Invasion (Spoilers)

[FaxModem1]

But color wise, it's very similar, while the red hand of Ulster is red, not white. For all we know, that symbol on the Zygon flag and used as grafitti is also text. Either way, color and layout, they are similar.

If you put one of them upside down, they would match up in spacing and design. If you don't see it, that's fine, but it's there.

[madd0ct0r]

Dude. The symbol is an open zygon hand with a little circle where the zzappy bit comes out. There was a reason I pulled up the red hand of Ulster

[FaxModem1]

Dude...that doesn't matter. I pointed out the similarities, you either see it or you don't.

[Crazedwraith]

Guys, you realise it's entirely possible to draw inspiration from more than one source right?

They did cover that in the episode, Osgood refused to say, stating that she was human and Zygon in one.

... So it's the Zygon one, since that's the only one that could claim to be part zygon?

I don't even know why I read these threads when I don't watch the episodes...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Guys, you realise it's entirely possible to draw inspiration from more than one source right?

They did cover that in the episode, Osgood refused to say, stating that she was human and Zygon in one.

... So it's the Zygon one, since that's the only one that could claim to be part zygon?

I don't even know why I read these threads when I don't watch the episodes...

Actually, the Doctor said she had to be the human one, because if the human one was dead the Zygon one wouldn't be able to maintain the body-print. She just shrugged and still refused to answer.

And yeah, why do you bother reading the thread without watching it first? Does get irritating.

[Crazedwraith]

Cos I'm interested but not interested enough to watch? It can't be that annoying this the first time since the premiere I've actually commented.

[Eternal_Freedom]

You aren't the only one who does it, and I've been reading/posting in DW threads for a loong time.

[The Romulan Republic]

Having seen a repeat of the episode, I have some comments:

Their are three basic problems here.

1. The episode is, at times, rather unsubtle, as has already been discussed in this thread.
2. The refugee/War on Terror analogy is rather muddled at times.
3. Said analogy just flat out doesn't work with the Zygons.

The Zygons are a lot more threatening than, say, Europe's refugee population. The radicals seem to be in control, their are 20 million of them (globally, that's not so much, but as a percentage of the UK's population, which is where the episode is often focussed, it dwarfs the current refugee crisis), they can appear as anyone and read fucking minds, and they are on the cusp of victory in Britain. So UNIT's heavy-handedness and paranoia appears a lot more reasonable, and the Doctor's pleas for peace appear more naive.

Now, you could use that as a way to say "even if the situation were that bad, bigotry and xenophobia would still be wrong", but I don't think that's what they're going for.

The analogy only works if you think refugees are way more threatening, and way more likely to be terrorists, than they actually are. By using an apocalyptic monster as the stand-in for refugees, the show has ruined the analogy, at best working against its intentions (presuming it intended a pro-refugee message) and at worst deliberately promoting the anti-refugee ideas of the far Right, saying that the menacing refugee horde is taking over and is going to destroy us and that most refugees are terrorists.

Oh, and having the Zygon-replaced parents who took their kid and Clara appear as "foreign" looking humans was a bad call. Its part of the lack of subtlety of the episode (we get it, the Zygons are supposed to represent scary Muslim immigrants), and it also plays up the "Scary foreigner" idea by applying it to real humans as well. Sure, they were apparently innocent victims once and were replaced by Zygons, but that's not how they come off initially.

Also, because I don't think for a moment that the show is going to deviate from the status quo on Earth so far as to have the Zygons effectively integrated with Earth's population and allowed to live openly, their are only three real ways that this can be resolved:

1. Zygons all die. In light of the episode's botched attempt at an analogy, this would be tantamount to saying "the solution to refugees is to kill the refugees".
2. Zygons are relocated. Which is saying "the solution to refugees is to forcibly relocate them/segregate them and potentially make them someone else's problem. While this would be very in keeping with the thinking of some European politicians, its hardly an admirable stance.
3. Zygons go back to living in secret. Which is saying "refugees are fine as long as they're out of sight and out of mind", and leaves the original cause of the crisis in the episode unresolved.

The analogy just plain fucking doesn't work. Now, you could make a reasonably good episode using aliens on Earth as an analogy for refugees (though I'm reminded of Tolkien's line "...I cordially dislike allegory...", but that kind of thing can get botched and have some really nasty implications. It would take a good writer, operating with careful thought, subtlety, and tact, and I sure as hell wouldn't entrust it to the man who wrote fucking "Kill the Moon".

Once more, I find myself questioning Moffat's judgement in running this show.

Oh, and sending off the head of UNIT with no guards in a crisis? Really, Doctor? Maybe it was part of some clever plan, but that was dubious.

And having all those soldiers go inside to verify who was who instead of just one representative? Though I get the sense the soldiers pretty much knew they were going to die and just couldn't bring themselves to open fire.

However, I did like Osgood's talk with the Doctor on the plane, her mourning her dead "sister" at the start, and Clara's conversation about the world ending in the tunnel near the end (even if it was quickly contradicted. And I liked that they toned down the campiness. Also, having Kate around as a recurring presence, like her dad, is nice.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, and where's the immortal Viking girl in all of this?

We know she's around on present day Earth, and didn't she say that she was going to basically deal with the stuff the Doctor left behind? Like a failed peace treaty, maybe?

Now, maybe UNIT's secrecy (and the Zygons') is so good she doesn't know. But I'd kind of love it if she popped up unexpectedly in part two of this story.

[FaxModem1]

The analogy just plain fucking doesn't work. Now, you could make a reasonably good episode using aliens on Earth as an analogy for refugees (though I'm reminded of Tolkien's line "...I cordially dislike allegory...", but that kind of thing can get botched and have some really nasty implications. It would take a good writer, operating with careful thought, subtlety, and tact, and I sure as hell wouldn't entrust it to the man who wrote fucking "Kill the Moon".

Alien Nation handled this rather well, and that show/movies ran on nothing but allegory.

Out of curiosity, could you expand on Tolkien's dislike of allegories? I'm interested in why he disliked them.

[The Romulan Republic]

Its in something titled "FOREWARD TO THE SECOND EDITION" (of The Lord of the Rings). Its fairly lengthy, but I'll quote part of it here:

"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."-J.R.R. Tolkien.

This is part of a longer piece where Tolkien refutes claims that The Lord of the Rings was meant to be an allegory, and specifically that it was meant to be an allegory for the Second World War.

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, didn't the Doctor actually offer to let Osgood come with him before she (or rather, one version of her) was killed? So with the other version's confirmed survival and Clara leaving soon, who thinks this episode is basically setting up Osgood as the next companion?

It would sort of meet my wish for a non-human companion, at least. And Osgood's kind of awesome. And considering that one of the best parts of this episode was her talk with the Doctor on the plane... well, you want a companion who has demonstrated good chemistry with the star.

[Parallax]

There is a fourth solution; Namely, what the Fantastic Four did to an invading force of Skrulls (alien shape changers).

To summarise; they hypnotised the skrulls into thinking they were cows and left them grazing in pastures.
(Which was a foreseeable screwup, as later the cows were slaughtered and turned into steaks/hamburgers/whatever ... and certain people gained skrull DNA and powers from ingesting them).

[The Romulan Republic]

Okay, thanks for the reminder of how fucked up comics get.

But anyway, that would basically be a variant on the status quo "Out of mind out of sight" solution. One less likely to cause a conflict in the future, perhaps, but only because an entire race was being mind-controlled into obedience. Not really a good outcome either.

Albeit possibly one the Doctor would resort to, at least in one of his darker periods. I'm reminded of Eleven's solution to the Silence (brainwash the entire human race into killing them).

[The Romulan Republic]

Guys, you realise it's entirely possible to draw inspiration from more than one source right?

They did cover that in the episode, Osgood refused to say, stating that she was human and Zygon in one.

... So it's the Zygon one, since that's the only one that could claim to be part zygon?

I don't even know why I read these threads when I don't watch the episodes...

Actually, the Doctor said she had to be the human one, because if the human one was dead the Zygon one wouldn't be able to maintain the body-print. She just shrugged and still refused to answer.

And yeah, why do you bother reading the thread without watching it first? Does get irritating.

As I recall, her response to the idea that she was the human was to say that its not necessary for the Zygons to keep a link once they have all the information they need.

As to her being Zygone, wasn't their something about them sharing a mind or memories or something so either way they'd be part human, part Zygon?

[Bedlam]

There is a fourth solution; Namely, what the Fantastic Four did to an invading force of Skrulls (alien shape changers).

To summarise; they hypnotised the skrulls into thinking they were cows and left them grazing in pastures.
(Which was a foreseeable screwup, as later the cows were slaughtered and turned into steaks/hamburgers/whatever ... and certain people gained skrull DNA and powers from ingesting them).

I could potentially see something similar, they get locked into a single human form and lose any alien abilities.

[Parallax]

Just some evidence for my afore stated claims:



And from http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Skrull_Cow ... rth-616%29

What happened next to the three original Skrull cows becomes mired in facts and later revelations. It has been stated that following the defeat of the Skrull cows on Earth they were turned over to the Alien Activities Commission, who forced them to be turned back into cows and sent to the slaughter-house. This Skrull-beef ended up in the food supply and was consumed by various members of the human population.[11] Further, it has been stated that the original Skrull cows were accidentally mixed in with a King's Crossing farmer's milking herd, and were milked as Dairy cows. Their "milk", which was part of them shape-shifted into milk, caused the people of the town to partially mutate, gaining the Skrulls' shape-shifting abilities and warlike tendencies. Those who drank the "milk" forced others to drink it until the entire town was affected.[5] However, in more recent times a Skrull has surfaced and had been undergoing psychiatric care from Doc Samson who claims to have been one of the original three Skrull cows.[12] Further confusing the matter is the fact that the Skrull cows were allowed to breed with normal cows creating Skrull-Cow hybrids,[6] and there is further question to the fate of the Skrull cows of 1776 and how they may have impacted the Skrull-Cow hybrid situation.[2] Thus, it is difficult to say with any certainty which of the "original" three Skrull Cows may or may not have been slaughtered or involved with the tainting of the milk supply in King's Crossing.

So maybe everyone will end up with Zygon burgers next week? >_>

[Iroscato]

Ahhh, they don't make 'em like they used to...