Mobile Suits

[Jub]

Because the Jaegers always waited til they hit land/shallows where Kaiju couldn't swim properly (the 'miracle mile'), where they no longer had a mobility edge and where the targets are. And the Jaegers were air-lifted into location, they can be relocated that way city to city.

This doesn't remove the fact that the Kaiju, upon spotting resistance, could have headed back into the sea to move to another target. If they choose a target close enough to their initial target they still get to attack without giving humanity enough time to load up the Jaeger and catch them. Yet they aren't seen to use their speed for any sort of strategic redeployment, this either implies that they're not that fast at anything other than the strategic level, or that them and their creators are some of the worse military minds this side of Star Trek ground forces.

I ask you again, which are they?

Also, the purpose of the Kaiju according to the person who mind-linked with the makers was to test their defenses. Not just cause max havoc, but to handle the defenses. In order to do that, it needs to meet the defenses, and not just avoid them completely.

False. There are ways to test the defenses without meeting the Jaegers in pitched battle. Using a the strategy of feigning attacks you can test their ability to redeploy to defend secondary targets, you can test what their non-Jaeger defenses are, all while doing extra damage and thus weakening the Jaegers, by attacking their supply lines, for when you actually have to fight them. Wars aren't won by mashing units together and hoping yours have +1 attack and +2 defense.

So again, am I correct in assuming that Kaiju speed simply isn't that fast outside of short sprints or are those behind the Kaiju simply too stupid to live?

Scaling is official heights and the labeled-in-the-picture pixels.

That's not enough for the sort of scaling you're attempting there. You also need to account for camera position as the Kaiju and the Jaeger are not going head on to the camera. You also need to show the scene in motion or show the still frames in order to prove that it takes the time you claim it does.

You've done half the job and are claiming that you needn't provide further proof.

Sure, but that's hardly the point if the bulk of the budget comes from getting rid of the wall and you're trying to argue Jaeger aren't cost effective, is it?

Unlike the Jaegers building combined arms has a use in future warfare. If you think this isn't an attractive angle for military planners and politicians alike you must not know much about how military spending works.

You're speculating the possible existence of super-subs in the first place.

You're literally asking me to provide proof on the limits of capabilities of something you made up with no concrete capabilities.

You made the claim that you could get x or less submarines per Jaeger, not me. Now show me how you came to that assumption.

Now that's just assumption.

No, it isn't. Increased computing power has always been shown to correlate strongly with scientific advances across multiple fields. The fact that we see rapid advances in some fields in the movie alongside vastly increased computing power means that there are almost certainly a myriad of advances that we never saw in the movie.

I'm ok with some speculation, but only as long as we are playing on even ground and allow reasonable speculation on both sides, which you are clearly not.

I'm asking you to do simple math to prove you understand the scale of the debate. Given the fact that you've claimed that current technology couldn't reach the breach, that Kaiju can dodge mach 10+ missiles, and that Kaiju could survive one or more hits from said missiles and have been unable to defend any of these claims; I doubt your understanding of basics of this kind of debate.

I don't know about reducing weight, Jaegers sunk pretty hard,

The official numbers, which you seem to be fond of using when it comes to Jaeger costs, claim they're pretty damned light. Before you make the claim that they can't be as light as claimed, Jaegers sinking could easily be due to ballast. Using the official numbers for Gipsy Danger's height and weight and some simple scaling (shown in the image below), we can find the density of the Jaeger versus the density of commonly used modern materials.



In this image Gipsy Danger is 457 px tall, and 222 px wide at the shoulders. This gives us a scale of 0.173 m per pixel. This Gipsy Danger is ~38.4 m across.

Due to the difficulty of finding a clean side view of Gipsy Danger I've opted to use pictures of the official figure to scale the Jaeger's depth.



This image gives us a width of 37.4 m. Based on the Jaegers height being ~566 px and the width being 267 px at the shoulders.

Seeing that our numbers check out to within a 3% margin of error, I'm now going to continue to the depth part of this scaling.



This image also gives us a height of ~566 px, it also gives a depth at the chest of ~135 px. That gives a depth of 18.9 m

Using the numbers from the later two scalings, we get a volume of 79 m x 37.4 m x 18.9 m = 55,841.94 m3. Using the weight given 1,980 tons (1,796,225.7 kg) we get a density of 32.17 kg per cubic meter. If we compare that to Iron (7850 kg/m3) we see that Jaeger tech is 244 times lighter for a material of at least equal strength. Compared to titanium that's 140 times, aluminium is 84 times heavier than Jaeger materials.

Thus, I'd dare say that we can reduce our torpedo's weight significantly. This could enable increased storage of gases for longer periods of supercavitation. Not that super materials are necessarily required.

Modern torpedos, such as the VA-111 Shkval 2, can already move at between 200 and 300 knots with ranges of 11+ kilometers. This means that torpedos able to reach Kaiju speeds may already exist. Thus, only small advances would need to be made to make underwater projectiles capable of defeating Kaiju underwater.

Are you claiming that no speed and range increases could be gained with an additional 10+ years of research with better and lighter materials and advanced computing?

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On a side note, this is how you show your scaling in a debate.

and developing a super-durable material doesn't mean you have knowledge on a super-light one.

As shown above it does, at least according to the same sources you're getting your $100 billion costs from.

Energy density, sure, indeed that'd make sense if they could figure out what Kaiju use for chemical,

Or if current advances proceed as they have been... One of the things you fail to accept is that we don't even need Kaiju tech to know that energy storage as well as other technologies are going to advance over a 10-year span.

Better modeling and such helps... but you've gotta have a really big improvement in speed, and it needs to be sustained speed, not just burst speed (which is what supercavication, the only method I know to get that fast, can give)

First, its supercavitation, not supercavication, you tool.

Secondly, you don't need high sustained speeds to intercept a target as long as you're willing to sacrifice range. This could be as simple as holding off firing a torpedo until the Kaiju is close to your submarine, but it needn't be. A better solution would be to refit submarines with larger tubes and lay duel layer torpedos like mines along the Kaiju's route. The first shell holds the torpedo and has a slow but long-range method of propulsion, say an electric motor powered by 3D storage lithium ion batteries. This stage is launched from in front of the Kaiju and swims towards it at a steady stealthy rate. The second stage, no longer needing a slow motor it's own, is now free to devote its entire mass to going fast for as long as possible, while carrying a warhead of sufficient power.

Given that this can be done with current technology, albeit with some of the technology being at the prototype stage, I don't see how my claims that Kaiju killing torpedos are possible is in any doubt.

And your designs are *entirely* reliant on this speculative advance existing.

That's a blatant falsehood as proven above.

Do you concede mine, that you're relying on an unknown on the properties of the breach?

No, I don't. Based on what we see in the movie the breach doesn't interact with matter to the degree that would be required to destroy a plug.

I don't see how you get, 'if we don't know something, it must be my way and the breach must be assumed to provide no problem for making a plug,' as a reasonable conclusion.

My actual argument was that the breach doesn't harm the water around it and thus, based on the only evidence we have, wouldn't harm a plug.

Especially not when the thing is clearly high energy enough to make lightning.

Lightning that doesn't flash boil water. That's a point you seem to neglect.

They took significantly more Jaeger weapon fire to take down even when not all *that* different in size (Knifehead was the largest Cat 3, Leatherback was short for a Cat 4), from one plasma blast to a half-dozen or more, and they had better weapons against Jaegers, and EMP, and better mobility (flying). You have an odd definition of 'meaningful'.

Adaptation doesn't mean borg-style immunity, it means altering designs to be better suited for the challenges it faces. Just like fighters and tanks go through different iterations.

Minor increases in toughness! Wow, these Kaiju are so badass!

Given that you claimed they could adapt to high speed missiles which put more energy into a small space than you showed with your poorly done sword calculations I'm going to have to ask you to concede to Kaiju dying to sprint style weapons.

Because they always make sure the Kaiju is stunned first. When they don't do that, the kaiju attacks and tries to rip them them up while they're charging, as happened with both Knifehead and Leatherback. Also Striker's missiles were disabled when it was hit there without stunning the kaiju first.

They never tried to rely on hitting a fully mobile kaiju, they reduced it's ability to evade and attack first.

That's a tactic that wouldn't be needed with missiles that can be 24km away from their launch points in 5 seconds.

It also shows that Kaiju simply aren't that tough.

So a battering-ram looking design that batters through a wall isn't enough to even warrant a speculative possibility mention to you.

Something looking like a ram is subjective. Math is objective and your math has been shit thus far.

False. The movie never shown the time-scale in which the blood was shown to be toxic. We do not see Hannibal Chou hours after exposure. There is no contradiction when we do not see what happens.

Would you care to prove that Hannibal Chou wasn't in the Kaiju's gut for hours in the post-credits scene?

Even beyond that, he didn't seem concerned for his survival. Also, nobody was shown rushing to get him to a hospital/treatment center. When we add this to the fact that nobody in the movie was wearing proper hazmat gear. The protective gear shown in the movie is not the sort of gear that would actually be used near something as toxic as you claim Kaiju Blue is.

Stop jumping down my throat for mentioning things-that-make-sense-with-what's-seen, then assuming completely unseen stuff in the next sentence.

How about you actually make a solid point first?

It's called 'counting the time in which during which a character counts off it's distance in miles.'

You know, for someone so short about not being already provided calcs, you really aren't trying hard.

I'm not required to do your math for you. Nor am I required to dig for the clips and imaged you've used to make your calculations. You've made claims but haven't shown your math nor the source materials required to prove them.

Back Up Your Claims. If you make a contentious statement of fact and someone asks for evidence, you must either provide it or withdraw the claim. Do not call it "self evident", restate it in different words, force the other person to prove your claim is not true, or use other weasel techniques to avoid backing up your claims.

So you're going to need to show the video and the math for your claims or I'm going to take your concession.

Appeal to incredulousness.

You not liking the numbers is not evidence against them.

If I told you that an X-Wing costs 10,000 republic credits would that help you to place its real world value? No, well that's about as much value as your $100 billion claim holds. Thus, I'll ask again for evidence that the $100 billion figure is in 2013 USD and includes all costs.

The sword is stationary, that was a Kaiju swimming in to it. The Jaeger, roughly similar weight ballpark as the Kaiju.

Isn't the Jaeger officially 1,980 tons based on the same source your costs are from?

And the rest? Unknown, stuff like the sword flex and thickness we cannot know.

Sword thickness is easy. Grab an image of the sword and scale from a known constant such as the Jaeger's height.

I'll give you flex, but given the fact that you couldn't even give solid numbers for how fast the sword was moving excuse me for not giving you the benefit of the doubt.

This is arguing by 'insisting on more details until one finds enough details that aren't known to call things wrong.' We are dealing with fictional material where most of the numbers are inaccessable, but we do know the big numbers and those have been presented.

I'm not asking for anything harder than the work done for things like Death Star II size calculations and the asteroid destruction scene.

I don't believe you're debating in good faith here, argument for 'we don't know some information means we must toss out the rest' is simply another way of saying 'we can't use numbers in fictional debate'.

I don't feel you're debating in good faith. First of all, you didn't address any of my points about kaiju being unable to dodge a sprint missile, nor did you address my points about the capabilities of modern deep-diving submersibles. Second of all, you failed to show proof for most of your math. You had one screen cap that wasn't capable of showing speed and didn't show how you calculated the starting distance and then you had the sum of fuck and all for the rest of your proof.

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<snip pointless crying>

That's my original and main point, and I don't feel the need to get bogged down in bad-faith nitpicks and reliance on your several major completely speculative points while being insulted even when I provide evidence and calculation of mine. I've provided calculations, math, quotes, and scenes, you have not, and you don't seem interested in accepting what I show.

Your proof hasn't been anything of the sort; you've made ridiculous claims such as claiming that modern submarines can't reach the breach or that Kaiju can dodge mach 10 missiles; and yet I'm supposed to be the one in the wrong here. Cry me a fucking river buttercup.

If you fail to reply to my points raised in this post, as well as the points you ignored from my last post I'm going to call this a major loss for you.

[Sky Captain]

Why so much focusing on submarines when they are not that necessary as main weapon system. Kaiju are not stealthy at all and can be easily detected and tracked. Torpedo bombers would work much better, they operate in environment where Kaiju can't easily attack, have better speed and response time and there are plenty of existing aircraft and helicopters which could be used in that role. Also bombers could launch missiles if Kaiju surfaces.

Submarines would be required to get to the breach and do something about it, but those don't have to be high end military grade stuff.

[Jub]

Why so much focusing on submarines when they are not that necessary as main weapon system. Kaiju are not stealthy at all and can be easily detected and tracked. Torpedo bombers would work much better, they operate in environment where Kaiju can't easily attack, have better speed and response time and there are plenty of existing aircraft and helicopters which could be used in that role. Also bombers could launch missiles if Kaiju surfaces.

Submarines would be required to get to the breach and do something about it, but those don't have to be high end military grade stuff.

My approach focuses on submarines merely as yet another line of defense. There are also issues with air dropped reaching the depths required to hit a Kaiju outside of a very narrow band of depths where the Kaiju is still hidden from missiles but shallow enough for air launched weapons to hit.

[Sky Captain]

I think it should be possible to design air launched torpedo that is capable of diving straight down to reach great depths quickly. One problem with submarines is if using nuclear torpedoes there would be strong shock waves when torpedo detonate. Extremely strong materials available may be able to somewhat mitigate this, but still you probably don't want to have your submarines nearby when nukes go off underwater. A bomber at least can make a drop and bug out quickly.

[Adam Reynolds]

That was something I wondered in the 1998 Godzilla movie. Why didn't they use air launched torpedoes. They were going after a target in New York Harbor(I forget exactly where) and they had a trio of LA class submarines. Would those have even fit in that location?

[Jub]

I think it should be possible to design air launched torpedo that is capable of diving straight down to reach great depths quickly. One problem with submarines is if using nuclear torpedoes there would be strong shock waves when torpedo detonate. Extremely strong materials available may be able to somewhat mitigate this, but still you probably don't want to have your submarines nearby when nukes go off underwater. A bomber at least can make a drop and bug out quickly.

There would obviously be some shockwaves, but given the 11+ kilometer range of the nuclear torpedo I looked at, you'd be well clear by the time the warhead went off.

That said, a rapidly diving torpedo would still be useful as long as it had the range to maneuver and speed to intercept once it reached the correct depths.