Doctor Who 9X08 - The Zygon Inversion

[Iroscato]

That was possibly the best ep of S9 so far, for me personally. I think this series has consistently been at its best when the noise and insanity settles down, and people just...talk. I really loved the climax, especially Capaldi's performance which would've solidified him as my favourite ever Doctor if I hadn't already watched his previous episodes.

God help me, I also think I'm warming somewhat to Clara as well, just in time for her inevitable gruesome death in a few episodes

[The Romulan Republic]

Clara is good once in a blue moon.

I liked her in Asylum of the Daleks and Day of the Doctor, at least. And I guess she was mostly okay in this one.

[Bedlam]

I did like it, the doctors rant was very good and it was quite interesting, to me anyway, that Capaldi's face looked quite like a Zygon, I think it was the hair.

Although, maybe I'm not as forgiving as I should be, but it seems to me that the Zygon's were getting a better deal than the humans, in the story, as far as we know they've killed hundreds, maybe thousands of humans (The population of Truth or Consequences, a chunk of UNIT and apparently a fair number of other humans here and there) where as the Zygon's have apparently lost a dozen or two? Is that a fair trade off? The Zygon's were organised to war on the humans where as the human's offensive in Truth or Consequences seemed to be a misunderstanding and the attack on the 'training camp' was totally ineffective. And apparently this or similar has happened 15 times before, that's a lot of humans dead.

Even the boxes options didn't seem entirely equal (although I can see an argument for them being equivalent) the human's box was 'kill all Zygons' or 'Nuke London killing everyone there Zygon or human, including the button pusher' vs the Zygon options 'Reveal all Zygons for an hour starting the war they wanted' or 'all Zygons become human (give or take)' neither of which automatically results in any dead Zygons.

Still, I will agree it was a good episode.

[SpottedKitty]

And apparently this or similar has happened 15 times before,

You caught that as well? Interesting. I wonder if we'll ever find out any more details.

[The Romulan Republic]

Belated correction:

I mistook this for the other Zygon episode thread. I haven't yet seen this one, and thus cannot comment on Clara's quality or lack thereof in it.

[Steve]

I think this might be the best episode of this entire series.

[Bedlam]

And apparently this or similar has happened 15 times before,

You caught that as well? Interesting. I wonder if we'll ever find out any more details.

I doubt it but it is a bit odd, particularly linked to the 'only Clara, Osgood and the Doctor can get into the black archive' bit. Without that I think it would work, the previous 15 times were smaller incursions, one or two Zygons made their way to the archive with this being the only, or one of only two larger 'take over London' scale things. But if the Zygons have killed thousands of humans 15 times so far and have apparently kidnapped or duplicated Clara that many times as well, they just don't seem to very good neighbours.

Of course the Doctor could just be screwing with them.

[bilateralrope]

Even the boxes options didn't seem entirely equal (although I can see an argument for them being equivalent) the human's box was 'kill all Zygons' or 'Nuke London killing everyone there Zygon or human, including the button pusher' vs the Zygon options 'Reveal all Zygons for an hour starting the war they wanted' or 'all Zygons become human (give or take)' neither of which automatically results in any dead Zygons.

You're assuming that the boxes do what the Doctor said that they would do. I think that Bonnie was right when she realized that the boxes are empty. If the Doctors plan fails and someone pushes one of the buttons, I can't think of any scenario where the buttons doing what the Doctor claimed that they would do would help anyone.

Then there is the matter of locking all Zygons into human forms. Think how quickly the uprising would have been ended if such a capability was under the Doctors or UNITs control. Even temporarily locking the Zygons into human form would derail the uprising and make it easier for UNIT to call in outside help without breaking the secrecy, because the outside help wouldn't need to know they are facing anything beyond humans. Locking Zygons might even have become a condition of the treaty. So I really doubt that such a capability exists.

[Parallax]

You're also assuming that the Doctor wasn't bullshitting.
Like he did with that name exchange. At least, we hope he was bullshitting.

[Broomstick]

Although, maybe I'm not as forgiving as I should be, but it seems to me that the Zygon's were getting a better deal than the humans, in the story, as far as we know they've killed hundreds, maybe thousands of humans (The population of Truth or Consequences, a chunk of UNIT and apparently a fair number of other humans here and there) where as the Zygon's have apparently lost a dozen or two? Is that a fair trade off? The Zygon's were organised to war on the humans where as the human's offensive in Truth or Consequences seemed to be a misunderstanding and the attack on the 'training camp' was totally ineffective.

We don't actually know how many Zygons have been killed. I assume a certain number died for the same reasons many Humans do: accidents, murders, allergic reactions to certain foods, whatever.

Maybe proportionally as many Zygons have been killed as Humans - say, 0.0005% of each population (number obviously pulled out of my ass).

And, of course, there is point that NO, NOTHING IS FAIR, LIFE IS NOT FAIR. It's not about murdering equal numbers on both sides, it's about stopping the killing. Now. Without demanding things be "equalized".

And apparently this or similar has happened 15 times before, that's a lot of humans dead.

It's ambiguous - have there been 15 rebellions, or has the Doctor been standing in that room for days replaying that scene 15 times before we get the ending we have here?

[FaxModem1]

Moral of the story: "Remember everybody, if there's a terrorist out there, you're equal to them in your morality and evil, and you just need to tell them, 'I forgive you.', and give them a big hug. Then they'll completely drop their ideological/ethnic/religious differences and become just like you.

It doesn't matter that you're negotiating in good faith with their people's leadership, have provided areas for them to settle within your homeland freely, and don't even monitor them, you are just as morally evil as them for the very act of wanting to defend yourself from harm."


I know they wanted to equate this back to the idea of a Cold War, two button pushers on the brink of destroying everything, but it's rather silly.

Also, why were the humans in London so stonefaced to the Zygon's transformation? It seemed as if he might as well have been just taking his hat off for all the reaction they were giving. If you want to have a story in which the humans fear the incoming Zygons, have the humans actually, you know, react in fear.

Also, Doctor, what are you ranting about? The Time War didn't matter, no one on Gallifrey was killed, you retconned the whole Time War. You shouldn't be making angsty speeches about it anymore.

[madd0ct0r]

Moral of the story: "Remember everybody, if there's a terrorist out there, you're equal to them in your morality and evil, and you just need to tell them, 'I forgive you.', and give them a big hug. Then they'll completely drop their ideological/ethnic/religious differences and become just like you.

It doesn't matter that you're negotiating in good faith with their people's leadership, have provided areas for them to settle within your homeland freely, and don't even monitor them, you are just as morally evil as them for the very act of wanting to defend yourself from harm."

lookup the good friday agreement.

[Broomstick]

Moral of the story: "Remember everybody, if there's a terrorist out there, you're equal to them in your morality and evil, and you just need to tell them, 'I forgive you.', and give them a big hug. Then they'll completely drop their ideological/ethnic/religious differences and become just like you.

It doesn't matter that you're negotiating in good faith with their people's leadership, have provided areas for them to settle within your homeland freely, and don't even monitor them, you are just as morally evil as them for the very act of wanting to defend yourself from harm."

One of the points was that the rebel Zygons had disregarded their leadership and were a splinter group. In fact, the group killed the Zygon leaders.

I know they wanted to equate this back to the idea of a Cold War, two button pushers on the brink of destroying everything, but it's rather silly.

Yes, the entire Cold War and MAD was "rather silly". Except it involved real lives. Which was another point - it's a "game", but it involves real lives and that it's not a "game".

Also, why were the humans in London so stonefaced to the Zygon's transformation?

Given the graffiti in the area, the guy sweeping up the sparky-hairballs, and so on those "humans" were probably also Zygons.

Also, Doctor, what are you ranting about? The Time War didn't matter, no one on Gallifrey was killed, you retconned the whole Time War. You shouldn't be making angsty speeches about it anymore.

Except he spent two lifetimes thinking he HAD killed his entire species. Plus any other atrocity he committed during the Time War that wasn't retconned.

[FaxModem1]

lookup the good friday agreement.

Are you saying that the leadership of the IRA would have joined the British military, completely dropped all differences, in order to protect the UK from within and without, because of bygones? Because that's what happened with 'Bonnie'.

'Bonnie' joined UNIT as Osgood, completely forsaking her prior identity. As Romulan Republic noted in the previous thread, it's an 'out of sight, out of mind' policy for the refugees. The only good Zygon is one who acts completely human.

[FaxModem1]

Moral of the story: "Remember everybody, if there's a terrorist out there, you're equal to them in your morality and evil, and you just need to tell them, 'I forgive you.', and give them a big hug. Then they'll completely drop their ideological/ethnic/religious differences and become just like you.

It doesn't matter that you're negotiating in good faith with their people's leadership, have provided areas for them to settle within your homeland freely, and don't even monitor them, you are just as morally evil as them for the very act of wanting to defend yourself from harm."

One of the points was that the rebel Zygons had disregarded their leadership and were a splinter group. In fact, the group killed the Zygon leaders.

And yet the episode tries to paint Kate Stewart as just as guilty for getting into the position to 'push the button', when it's really UNIT trying to face off yet another alien invasion. Seeing as how the only 'good' Zygon we saw was the one who killed himself, and potentially Osgood, it's hard to fault her reasoning here.

I know they wanted to equate this back to the idea of a Cold War, two button pushers on the brink of destroying everything, but it's rather silly.

Yes, the entire Cold War and MAD was "rather silly". Except it involved real lives. Which was another point - it's a "game", but it involves real lives and that it's not a "game".[/quote]

I'm saying that putting it into the Cold War box was silly. It was out of place, and didn't belong here in this type of story.

Also, why were the humans in London so stonefaced to the Zygon's transformation?

Given the graffiti in the area, the guy sweeping up the sparky-hairballs, and so on those "humans" were probably also Zygons.

That's possible. But it could have been executed better if he's running for his life and everyone's reaction is a solid, "Meh."

Also, Doctor, what are you ranting about? The Time War didn't matter, no one on Gallifrey was killed, you retconned the whole Time War. You shouldn't be making angsty speeches about it anymore.

Except he spent two lifetimes thinking he HAD killed his entire species. Plus any other atrocity he committed during the Time War that wasn't retconned.

Yes, and about one and a half lifetimes knowing he HADN'T, one of which was more than both combined.

[madd0ct0r]

lookup the good friday agreement.

Are you saying that the leadership of the IRA would have joined the British military, completely dropped all differences, in order to protect the UK from within and without, because of bygones? Because that's what happened with 'Bonnie'.

'Bonnie' joined UNIT as Osgood, completely forsaking her prior identity. As Romulan Republic noted in the previous thread, it's an 'out of sight, out of mind' policy for the refugees. The only good Zygon is one who acts completely human.

The alleged leadership of the ira are now mps, able to vote on British law and whether we go to war or not. Several known murderers were released in the agreement and several other cases were dropped, with evidence secretly destroyed. the central ira policed the cease-fire to a degree with suspected punishment kneecappings of other members who refused to stop the fighting. A peace process cannot leave either side satisfied and requires a degree of forgiveness. Tge scales are never balanced when you have two points of view.

As for the specific character of Bonnie, it is made clear the donor identity influences the thought process of the zygon. Becoming Osgood may not be more the a cynical attempt to avoid reprisals, but once she becomes an osgood she is committed.

[SpottedKitty]

It's ambiguous - have there been 15 rebellions, or has the Doctor been standing in that room for days replaying that scene 15 times before we get the ending we have here?

Now that's a reading of events that never occurred to me. Plausible, certainly — especially given the capabilities of the flashy-thingy-smoke-alarm.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Honestly that was an excellent episode. The acting was brilliant (especially from Capaldi), it was well-paced, and Clara was actually a good character. The "evil Clara" was also jolly interesting to see, but I'm a sucker for alternate-character interpretations

Though I will say I could see the "Kate Stewart is the real one not the Zygon" coming a mile off, after last week's episode actually. I did like the "five rounds rapid" explanation.

Incidentally, why exactly does Clara have access to the Black Archive? And the Doctor? Didn't they say in Day of the Doctor that it was specifically meant to keep the Doctor out (as well as others)?

EDIT: On the subject of the Doctor's rant about war: Yes he retconned away the final genocide that ended the Time War, but everything else the War Doctor did still happened, so his line about hearing more screams then Bonnie could ever imagine still work.

[SpottedKitty]

Incidentally, why exactly does Clara have access to the Black Archive? And the Doctor? Didn't they say in Day of the Doctor that it was specifically meant to keep the Doctor out (as well as others)?

I'm sure there's a bit in DotD where it's mentioned that Clara, and many of the other Earth-based companions, have been allowed into the Archive many times — they just don't remember, of course. As for the Doctor, maybe it's just UNIT finally being realistic about the fact that they really can't keep him out if he wants in.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I can see her being allowed access while escorted, like she was in DotD with Kate. but her bodyprint unlocking the Archive? Um, right, sure.

[JLTucker]

I thought it was obvious that the climax was repeated until someone made a decision the Doctor liked.

[SpottedKitty]

Just watched the repeat a bit more carefully, and noticed Clara told !Clara that the Doctor changed the Black Archive access list after the events of the treaty.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Just watched it again. It remains excellent on a second viewing.

Seems to be a pattern for this series. The first half of the story is kinda meh and/or stupid, and the second half by and large mitigate that into an excellent tale (as in this case and The Witch's Familiar, though YMMV) or a solidly enjoyable one (Before the Flood and The Woman Who Lived).

Oh, and the "You're sending out very mixed messages here. You do know I'm over 200 years old? I'm old enough to be your Messiah!" line cracked me up