How many Spartan-IVs to take down an Ultramarine squad?

[NecronLord]

Purple, what in fact we need to do is analyse the effects and draw conclusions based on the effects in action. Not try and work forward from what it's described as being. We have plentiful information on what bolter shells do. While there's two different types of effect it has, there's plenty of data of them in action in both regards.

[Purple]

What you need to do is analyse the effects and draw conclusions based on the effects in action. Not try and work forward from what it's described as being. We have plentiful information on what bolter shells do.

That works too.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Given what a bolter is described as being (a rapid-fire armour-piercing grenade launcher) I would think it would have a roughly similar effect on Spartans as a faster-firing Brute Shot would. Those were a real bitch in Halo 2/3, so that may give us at least a low-end estimate for effects against Spartans.

[Lord Revan]

Given what a bolter is described as being (a rapid-fire armour-piercing grenade launcher) I would think it would have a roughly similar effect on Spartans as a faster-firing Brute Shot would. Those were a real bitch in Halo 2/3, so that may give us at least a low-end estimate for effects against Spartans.

Roughly I suppose but don't brute shot fire in an arc kind of like an unholy mix between a granade launcher and a shotgun? While bolters are generally fired like rifle or SMG.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, bolters are sort of a SMG that fires explosive ammunition. They aren't quite like a grenade launcher in that they don't use indirect fire. I honestly don't remember the Brute Shot very well, never played Halo 3 and when I played through 2 I didn't bother picking up the Shot very often.... plus it was almost 10 years ago now... (jesus)

[Eternal_Freedom]

Given what a bolter is described as being (a rapid-fire armour-piercing grenade launcher) I would think it would have a roughly similar effect on Spartans as a faster-firing Brute Shot would. Those were a real bitch in Halo 2/3, so that may give us at least a low-end estimate for effects against Spartans.

Roughly I suppose but don't brute shot fire in an arc kind of like an unholy mix between a granade launcher and a shotgun? While bolters are generally fired like rifle or SMG.

Yes they're fired as a rifle, but I was more talking about the effects of the rounds hitting the Spartans. Sure, a grenade exploding on your shield is not as effective as a similar-sized round exploding after it penetrates your torso, but as I said it can give us a very rough low-end estimate for what bolter rounds might do to Spartans on impact.

[Jub]

Yes they're fired as a rifle, but I was more talking about the effects of the rounds hitting the Spartans. Sure, a grenade exploding on your shield is not as effective as a similar-sized round exploding after it penetrates your torso, but as I said it can give us a very rough low-end estimate for what bolter rounds might do to Spartans on impact.

There's also the fact that, unless you go with high velocity low explosive power bolter rounds for your calculations, a bolter shell will send more energy into the shield due to its explosive detonating than it will through sheer kinetic energy.

Shields, at least in Halo 3 multiplayer, take 11 shots with a 9.5 x 40 mm rounds to take down. These rounds are around twice the mass of a 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round with a faster muzzle velocity. It's not stated just how much faster these rounds are, but I'm going with 3,000 ft/s, 3,250 ft/s, and 3,500 ft/s as rough estimates. That puts the breaking strength of a spartan's shield at 91.97 KJ, 107.94 KJ, and 125.19 KJ respectively. This also helps set a lower limit for what a full charged Covenant plasma pistol shot can put out.

Assuming roughly 50% of a bolter's explosive energy is added to the kinetic energy, and that all four rounds in a bolter's burst hit a spartan's shield even a 1,000 ft/s bolter round with 10 g of TNT equivalent will drop a shield with a burst or two. At 3,000 ft/s and above with the same low-powered explosive that burst drops the shield and probably kills/badly wounds the spartan. With 50 g of explosive the shields start to fall from a single round with the follow-up round killing the spartan.

[Purple]

Shields, at least in Halo 3 multiplayer, take 11 shots with a 9.5 x 40 mm rounds to take down. These rounds are around twice the mass of a 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round with a faster muzzle velocity. It's not stated just how much faster these rounds are, but I'm going with 3,000 ft/s, 3,250 ft/s, and 3,500 ft/s as rough estimates. That puts the breaking strength of a spartan's shield at 91.97 KJ, 107.94 KJ, and 125.19 KJ respectively. This also helps set a lower limit for what a full charged Covenant plasma pistol shot can put out.

I am not familiar with Halo at all. But what you say makes very little sense to me. As far as I understand Halo firearms are essentially grounded in modern technology just a tad updated. So of anything, assuming modernish powders and technology 9.5 x 40 should behave and be designed something like the Soviet 9×39mm. Or at best a supercharged version of it and definitively not what you describe.

Either way really the math just does not check out. 40mm is a really stubby case length for such a high caliber. Unless you have radically better powders and case materials to withstand the increased pressure you simply won't be getting those kind of velocities from such a stubby cartridge.

[Jub]

Shields, at least in Halo 3 multiplayer, take 11 shots with a 9.5 x 40 mm rounds to take down. These rounds are around twice the mass of a 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round with a faster muzzle velocity. It's not stated just how much faster these rounds are, but I'm going with 3,000 ft/s, 3,250 ft/s, and 3,500 ft/s as rough estimates. That puts the breaking strength of a spartan's shield at 91.97 KJ, 107.94 KJ, and 125.19 KJ respectively. This also helps set a lower limit for what a full charged Covenant plasma pistol shot can put out.

I am not familiar with Halo at all. But what you say makes very little sense to me. As far as I understand Halo firearms are essentially grounded in modern technology just a tad updated. So of anything, assuming modernish powders and technology 9.5 x 40 should behave and be designed something like the Soviet 9×39mm.

The fluff for the round says they used a more advanced powder getting more oomph from a smaller casing. Which is why a larger more massive round also flies faster than a 7.62 NATO.

[Purple]

The fluff for the round says they used a more advanced powder getting more oomph from a smaller casing. Which is why a larger more massive round also flies faster than a 7.62 NATO.

Even in that case if they are going to have a bullet that is of a realistic shape for proper ballistic performance they won't really go above the 15-16 gram range. That's where all the pointy 9+mm rifle cartridges tend to gravitate around. That's about 1.5 times the weight of 7.62 OTAN ball. The larger 17+ gram stuff tend to be old school round nosed bullets.

So most likely we are looking at a rifle round with about the performance of say this thing.

[Jub]

The fluff for the round says they used a more advanced powder getting more oomph from a smaller casing. Which is why a larger more massive round also flies faster than a 7.62 NATO.

Even in that case if they are going to have a bullet that is of a realistic shape for proper ballistic performance they won't really go above the 15-16 gram range. That's where all the pointy 9+mm rifle cartridges tend to gravitate around. That's about 1.5 times the weight of 7.62 OTAN ball.

Eh, for our purposes that doesn't really change that much with regards to how many bolter rounds it takes to drop a spartan. It does weaken the lower-end estimate of how powerful a plasma pistol is, but again not by a ton. There's also the fact that these rounds are said to be armor piercing and those kinds of rounds tend to be a bit heavier than a normal round.

Doing the math with a lighter round gives us shield strengths of 73.58 KJ, 86.35 KJ, and 100.15 KJ which is weaker, but not by enough to change what happens when a bolter round or Imperium plasma weapon hits a spartan. It also doesn't do much to change the 100-150 KJ range that a fully charged plasma pistol likely operates within.

[Lord Revan]

Should be look at the fluff or at most the hardest single player difficulty for the shield resilience of the Spartans, Multiplayer is always subject to game balance first fluff accuracity second, or should we assume that modern soldiers can take several hits from an assault rifle and just be fine if they don't get shot for a few seconds.

[Jub]

Should be look at the fluff or at most the hardest single player difficulty for the shield resilience of the Spartans, Multiplayer is always subject to game balance first fluff accuracity second, or should we assume that modern soldiers can take several hits from an assault rifle and just be fine if they don't get shot for a few seconds.

Halo cannon is, IIRC, that the hardest single player is cannon for how much punishment a character can take. If anybody wants to test standard weapons against the Spartan-IVs on the hardest difficulty and get me better numbers I'd gladly use those.

[Lord Revan]

Should be look at the fluff or at most the hardest single player difficulty for the shield resilience of the Spartans, Multiplayer is always subject to game balance first fluff accuracity second, or should we assume that modern soldiers can take several hits from an assault rifle and just be fine if they don't get shot for a few seconds.

Halo cannon is, IIRC, that the hardest single player is cannon for how much punishment a character can take. If anybody wants to test standard weapons against the Spartan-IVs on the hardest difficulty and get me better numbers I'd gladly use those.

first off it's canon with 2 "n"s (cannon with 3 "n"s is a big ass weapon), but that's a minor nitpick and I'd say that in cases like this it's better to declare it "unsolveble due to lack of accurate data" then to use known inaccurate data.

Sadly I don't have any Halo games apart from the PC version of the first and I'd say it would be better to use fluff if avaible as that isn't subject to game balance, though sadly the Halo fluff material I have (Forward onto dawn and Nightfall) don't hits to Spartant shields so I cannot tell the durability.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The one incident I can recall from one of the books (First Strike) involved the Brute Shot. Several (more than one, though probably less than four) shots hit Grace, a Spartan-II who had her shields at full strength and goes down. After the fight, John goes to help her...to find that the shots had ripped her in half or something like that.

[Jub]

Should be look at the fluff or at most the hardest single player difficulty for the shield resilience of the Spartans, Multiplayer is always subject to game balance first fluff accuracity second, or should we assume that modern soldiers can take several hits from an assault rifle and just be fine if they don't get shot for a few seconds.

Halo cannon is, IIRC, that the hardest single player is cannon for how much punishment a character can take. If anybody wants to test standard weapons against the Spartan-IVs on the hardest difficulty and get me better numbers I'd gladly use those.

first off it's canon with 2 "n"s (cannon with 3 "n"s is a big ass weapon), but that's a minor nitpick and I'd say that in cases like this it's better to declare it "unsolveble due to lack of accurate data" then to use known inaccurate data.

Sadly I don't have any Halo games apart from the PC version of the first and I'd say it would be better to use fluff if avaible as that isn't subject to game balance, though sadly the Halo fluff material I have (Forward onto dawn and Nightfall) don't hits to Spartant shields so I cannot tell the durability.

Writing cannon instead of canon was a typo, I know the difference.

In this case, I don't think that 11 hits versus some lower number changes things by a large amount. We're still talking about one to two bursts of bolter fire to drop a Spartan-IV any way you slice it. If I was doing a Spartan-IV calculation thread I'd use better data, but the bolter is just so strong that in this case it would take a fairly large adjustment to shield strength in favor of the Spartan-IVs to cause the bolter to take a third burst to kill on.

[Balrog]

So it seems platoon-strength is the minimum people are arguing for, at least restricted to small arms. Would there be any vehicles in the last scenario which would help bring that number down?

Also how do you think the S-IV's new armor abilities would match up in an individual match against a Space Marine?

[Q99]

Vehicles are good, since they have heavy weapons, but can be a double-edged sword since they're bigger more obvious targets. Pumas with heavy weapon mounts do sound like a good idea.

As for armor abilities, none would balance the field in an even match, though some are useful in group combat. Jumppacks probably aren't smart since they're fairly easy targets when jumping and SMs are used to them. Regeneration field, definitely not worth it, Spartans will go down too fast anyway.

Bubble shields would help their surviveability some but the lack of offense while in use plus the ability to leap through and melee (which Spartans do *not* want to do with SMs) gives it a limit, armor lock too to a lesser extent (since while it helps protection, it also makes you stuck there), and hardlight shields are probably the best since it's the ability that can both withstand fire the best and allow squadmates to maintain offense while hiding behind the user.

Active Camo and Holograms would *definitely* help, makes it easier to get some kills, better for survival than anything durability-based... if used smartly at least. I'd say active camo is probably the single best pick for Spartans here, and the one that gives them the best chance in a solo matchup if paired with a proper heavy weapon.

Promethean Vision, obviously good to have to prevent SMs from getting the drop/increasing odds of getting an ambush.