The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I don't know. The Oracle may not be casual towards killing, but she manipulates people knowing that her manipulations will result in suffering and death (presumably believing that their will be a net positive outcome). She strikes me as one of those chess master types who don't get their hands dirty but kill countless people indirectly as a result of their decisions.

Edit: Which actually describes the Doctor fairly well at times.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by Simon_Jester »

The Romulan Republic wrote:So, here's my take on how this might play out (bearing in mind that my knowledge of the Matrix is a bit incomplete beyond the first film):

I'm fairly confident in saying Eleven and possibly Twelve would stick around and ask questions, that the Nebuchadnezzar crew would detain them and any companions (barring successful use of the psychic paper, anyway, and I'm not sure how easy someone who saw through the Matrix would be to fool with that trick)...
Not easy, I imagine. Also, it's inherently a hard sell. The crew of the Nebuchadnezzar is tightly knit and small, and they live in an isolated environment that only rarely contacts the outside world. There's no good explanation for how a random person could appear aboard their ship.
NecronLord wrote:
Do the machines have any forces outside of the Matrix besides sentinels (flying shit as far as serious combat is concerned) and the artillery you mentioned?
Yes, they do. The Animatrix historical footage shows they had a full combined arms force including infantry bots, planebots, tankbots, nuclear weapons, titan-scale harvester bots, and more.

That was obviously hundreds of years ago, but we've no evidence they've been decommissioned; they send only sentinels to the war but sentinels are more than enough and destroying Zion is basically a policing operation; you don't see the full panoply of the US war machine when they send riot police somewhere.

The Wachowskis have also said that the games form part of the official story and I believe some of them have yet more killbots.
On the other hand, if the Doctor and/or the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar remain in the guts of the machines' world, most of those heavy weapons cannot be brought to bear against them. They don't seem inclined to use nuclear weapons to blow up individual ships full of guerillas that are operating inside their own machine spaces.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27383
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by NecronLord »

On the other hand, if the Doctor and/or the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar remain in the guts of the machines' world, most of those heavy weapons cannot be brought to bear against them. They don't seem inclined to use nuclear weapons to blow up individual ships full of guerillas that are operating inside their own machine spaces.
I wasn't saying they were Rommie was asking what other gear they have; the answer is lots.

Do they have more lethal tools to send into the tunnels? Almost certainly yes, they have the sentinels' grenade things at least.

But of course they're not too interested in destroying Zionists most of the time, and they have plenty of sentinels to do the job the rest of the time.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Maelstrom
Redshirt
Posts: 21
Joined: 2011-04-09 02:10pm
Location: Kansas

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by Maelstrom »

I tend to think the Doctor would do nothing...what with his knowledge that Great and Bountiful human empires are forthcoming from this...hiccup. He would, of course, defend himself and any of his companions. And let's be honest, if he can handle Cybermen and Daleks, he'd handle the shit out of the Matrix and its sentinels.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27383
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by NecronLord »

Maelstrom wrote: And let's be honest, if he can handle Cybermen and Daleks, he'd handle the shit out of the Matrix and its sentinels.
Both of those he can talk down and induce to capture him. It's not clear if individual Sentinels can be reasoned with.

If words are his weapons, then an unreasoning killbot that can fly at highway car speeds and kills people by lifting them and dropping them is the perfect answer.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by Themightytom »

FaxModem1 wrote:The sentinels don't take prisoners or give speeches, two things that all of the Doctor's enemies do that he usually exploits. As for his sonic screwdriver saving the day, that would really depend on him being able to make EMPs with it. Something that, as shown in 'Voyage of the Damned' against the robot angels, he and the passengers needed the cybernetic power source of an alien cyborg in order to fight them at all. Has the Doctor ever demonstrated the ability to make EMPs with his screwdriver?

His only hope is that the sentinels determine he's alien enough to warrant investigation and bring him before the sentinel baby face to talk it to death.

Wow what trilogy did YOU watch, bad guys in the matrix never shut up. I would expect the doctor honestly to just reprogram the agents to want to help humanity.

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by FaxModem1 »

Themightytom wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:The sentinels don't take prisoners or give speeches, two things that all of the Doctor's enemies do that he usually exploits. As for his sonic screwdriver saving the day, that would really depend on him being able to make EMPs with it. Something that, as shown in 'Voyage of the Damned' against the robot angels, he and the passengers needed the cybernetic power source of an alien cyborg in order to fight them at all. Has the Doctor ever demonstrated the ability to make EMPs with his screwdriver?

His only hope is that the sentinels determine he's alien enough to warrant investigation and bring him before the sentinel baby face to talk it to death.

Wow what trilogy did YOU watch, bad guys in the matrix never shut up. I would expect the doctor honestly to just reprogram the agents to want to help humanity.
Please point to the scene where the sentinels monologue to the humans.
Image
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by Themightytom »

FaxModem1 wrote:
Themightytom wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:The sentinels don't take prisoners or give speeches, two things that all of the Doctor's enemies do that he usually exploits. As for his sonic screwdriver saving the day, that would really depend on him being able to make EMPs with it. Something that, as shown in 'Voyage of the Damned' against the robot angels, he and the passengers needed the cybernetic power source of an alien cyborg in order to fight them at all. Has the Doctor ever demonstrated the ability to make EMPs with his screwdriver?

His only hope is that the sentinels determine he's alien enough to warrant investigation and bring him before the sentinel baby face to talk it to death.

Wow what trilogy did YOU watch,bad guys in the matrix never shut up. I would expect the doctor honestly to just reprogram the agents to want to help humanity.
Please point to the scene where the sentinels monologue to the humans.
You missed my point, just because the Sentinels don't monologue doesn't mean the other bad guys don't and... are they not in charge? I think you assume the sentinels operate autonomously when what we actually see in the movies is highly coordinated behavior. The sentinels obviously answer to them and are connected to the Matrix in real time, the same vulnerability to chattiness extends through the Sentinels, even if they can't literally talk themselves.

https://youtu.be/I0CosykifEM

They are definitely connected to the Matrix...
or Neo has mind powers, which the doctor has too, but I think it's more likely he qualified himself as some kind of Admin, when he was in the matrix, so once he waved his arms and said "Stop" the Sentinels did. The Doctor can probably cobble together some kind of access to do the same, and might not even need to insert himself into the Matrix to do it.

The Sentinel baby WAS able to stop the entire army of sentinels from wiping out Zion, once the Agent was dealt with, both the agent driving them forward and the Deus Ex Machina exerted control over them.

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
User avatar
Tribble
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3105
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by Tribble »

IIRC in "Let's Kill Hitler" the 11th Doctor used the Sonic screwdriver knock a knife out of River's hand when she went to go stab him, so it's not entirely useless against primitive weapons.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by FaxModem1 »

Themightytom wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:
Themightytom wrote:

Wow what trilogy did YOU watch,bad guys in the matrix never shut up. I would expect the doctor honestly to just reprogram the agents to want to help humanity.
Please point to the scene where the sentinels monologue to the humans.
You missed my point, just because the Sentinels don't monologue doesn't mean the other bad guys don't and... are they not in charge? I think you assume the sentinels operate autonomously when what we actually see in the movies is highly coordinated behavior. The sentinels obviously answer to them and are connected to the Matrix in real time, the same vulnerability to chattiness extends through the Sentinels, even if they can't literally talk themselves.

https://youtu.be/I0CosykifEM

They are definitely connected to the Matrix...
or Neo has mind powers, which the doctor has too, but I think it's more likely he qualified himself as some kind of Admin, when he was in the matrix, so once he waved his arms and said "Stop" the Sentinels did. The Doctor can probably cobble together some kind of access to do the same, and might not even need to insert himself into the Matrix to do it.

The Sentinel baby WAS able to stop the entire army of sentinels from wiping out Zion, once the Agent was dealt with, both the agent driving them forward and the Deus Ex Machina exerted control over them.
Neo's powers in the 'real world' are never explained. So, for all we know, he does have psychic powers. If it's another level of the Matrix, as others have posted, the Doctor should be able to hack the system with his strength of mind. The Doctor's psychic powers require physical touch, and are still nothing impressive. And again, if the Doctor can use his sonic screwdriver on them, great. If not, he's meat loaf. The Architect, while seemingly in charge, doesn't seem to command the sentinels like a remote controlled drone, they're more like dogs that take orders from their master, as shown in this scene: link.

So, unless the Architect broadcasts, "Do not kill, only capture that man.", the sentinels are going to rip the Doctor apart.
Image
User avatar
Themightytom
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2818
Joined: 2007-12-22 11:11am
Location: United States

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by Themightytom »

FaxModem1 wrote:
Themightytom wrote:
Neo's powers in the 'real world' are never explained. So, for all we know, he does have psychic powers. If it's another level of the Matrix, as others have posted, the Doctor should be able to hack the system with his strength of mind. The Doctor's psychic powers require physical touch, and are still nothing impressive. And again, if the Doctor can use his sonic screwdriver on them, great. If not, he's meat loaf. The Architect, while seemingly in charge, doesn't seem to command the sentinels like a remote controlled drone, they're more like dogs that take orders from their master, as shown in this scene: link.

So, unless the Architect broadcasts, "Do not kill, only capture that man.", the sentinels are going to rip the Doctor apart.
Does the doctor require physical touch? I can't name a specific example, but I got the sense especially with the tenth and eleventh doctors that they could at least intuit things that were going on without any physical evidence, and they could often bamboozle, bluff or force their will on others.

The doctor has his tardis, that probably has all kinds of things that would work against a Sentinal anyway, square gun, forcefields, how hard would it even be for him to create an EMP.

All of that aside, I think the architect would be very likely to order the Doctor captured not killed. Sentinels can detect humans, I'd imagine they would notice the near human who has two hearts and a very low body temperature.

"Since when is "the west" a nation?"-Styphon
"ACORN= Cobra obviously." AMT
This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27383
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by NecronLord »

The Doctor doesn't carry guns or weapons in a premeditated way, although he possess them.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: The Doctor encounters the Matrix.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

NecronLord wrote:The Doctor doesn't carry guns or weapons in a premeditated way, although he possess them.
While their might be some exceptions I'm not aware of, this is actually a remarkably consistent point. Even the War Doctor apparently doesn't carry a gun with him generally, having to borrow one off a Time Lord infantryman during the Fall of Arcadia.

But then, he has means of causing destruction far more powerful than guns at his disposal, from technological sabotage all the way up to rewriting reality or triggering paradoxes (not that he would normally do the latter deliberately). So this may be less an aversion to violence, at least for some regenerations, than guns simply being rather crude weapons compared to the level he operates on (although Ten, as I recall, did seem to have a very strong aversion to guns and killing in general at times).

Also, again, Eleven can apparently turn his sonic screwdriver into an energy weapon if he wishes ("Day of the Moon").
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Post Reply