Thoughts on Eclipse Phase rpg?

[Composeure]

So this rpg first came to my attention when I happened to find a lone copy in a high school storage closet. I read through it with no real reaction beyond mild interest before almost forgetting it. I would later find a few reddit posts that thoroughly eviscerated the game's premise, and the SD.net website and came to realize that Eclipse Phase is genuinely pretty biased and nonsensical and might actually be a bad rpg.

In terms of the premise, basically Earth got taken over by robots and evil AI. Humanity-- wait, sorry-- transhumanity now lives on space habitats, the other planets, and the moons of Jupiter (and maybe the asteroid belt). Also, everyone who lives on the moons of Jupiter is fascist and evil. You can tell this because they have capitalism and don't use a ton of biomods. There are "free anarchist" havens in the form of the "scum" and their "scum ships" and other such "autonomists" as well as "hypercorp" ruled areas.

In terms of technology, the gear lists are based off of Shadowrun (unsurprisingly because the guys who write this rpg splintered off from the Shadowrun writers to make this). At least this rpg does not have a dozen different versions of the same handgun unlike Shadowrun, They make up for this by introducing a heck ton of "biomodifications" and cybernetics with there being much more bio stuff because "biotech" can do absolutely everything better than "metal based" tech right? Also, a bunch of "nanite healing" stuff, like "healing vats" and "spray on cans" and such, as well as "nanofacs" and specialized "nanite hives", and "smart tools and materials" that integrate mini nanite resevoirs in them, and can become practically any other tool/clothing (can you detect a theme here, readers?). Also there's a sidebar on enhanced senses which, if you are the kind of GM to whom the phrase "wait I have darkvision!" is a constant source of distraction, will likely drive you mad (only slightly joking here).

Some other notable pieces of tech involve "basic mesh inserts" (read: internal computer/AR implants) that house a "limited assistant AI" as well as "basic biomods" which prevent all aging, negate biological "shock", causes one to heal far faster than a normal human, and regrow limbs (slowly). Mentioned here because they are standard with every "morph" and the latter is somewhat suspect in terms of actual viability.

And of course, the main two selling points to those who would buy this rpg in the first place are a. "morphs" and "body switching" and b. "nanotech."

The first basically involves the basic scifi "upload your mind to a computer/"ego bridge" then reupload it into a new morph (body)". As might be expected, there is a ton of "improving the human body" stuff that goes on with morphs, as well as some genuinely concerning stuff in the form of "child morphs", as well as the "upload mind to a robot" thing. Also "uplifted" animals. Note that "perfect cloning" exists too, and incidentally that this game subscribes to the notion that "yeah, a really good photo of you is totes you." Ironically the fact that travel long distances in this game means basically emailing your mind to a different computer in the solar system means that PCs who travel a lot almost certainly won't have their "tricked out morph" on hand. (Note that spaceships exist and are more or less equal to ,say, the Expanse ships-- so in system only-- with the exception of using "antimatter torpedoes" and having some AIs pilot the "fighter craft.")

On the second point, the book's descriptions of "nanotech" bring to mind certain arguments on the Star Trek replicator, and their refutations. The "nanofacs" in this rpg seem to function basically like shittier replicators, yet the book's own descriptions (I should add this rpg has a tendency to hide actual game material behind paragraphs and paragraphs of the writer's loredumps and ramblings on ""post scarcity"" and such) describes them in glowing terms as things that will "end capitalism" and allow anyone to be ""post scarcity"" (paraphrasing loosely here). In actual game terms, these "nanofacs" come in varying sizes, require dedicated feedstock and electronics plans, and require many minutes, if not hours, to produce anything. On "feedstock, note that as the "nanofacs" can assemble things "at the molecular level", that probably means just "disassembled" (by attached nanite disassemblers) waste material, but could mean actually needing specific stuff if one wants to fabricate more exotic things.

In terms of "metaplot," (ie in the GM's section) basically what caused the aforementioned evil AI to become evil was an ancient alien civilization that, millions if not billions of years ago, sent a bunch of self-replicating probes throughout the galaxy to monitor for AI and them make the AI go evil when detected. This was done through the release of a ""nanobiological/digital"" super-virus that can cause people/computers to mutate into monsters, become evil, or a combination of this. Also, psionics exists in this game, and the aforementioned ""nanobiological/digital" super-virus can give psionic ability to people. Hard sci-fi! /s There is also a "benign" strain of this super-virus that just gives one psionics without the "become and inhuman monster" part of it for the obligatory "PC who has psionic powers." There's also a bunch of "evil AI tech", divided into "built by the evil AI using its own knowledge" and "built by evil AI using evil alien instructions/possibly built by evil aliens themselves" with such charming things as "self-replicating nanoswarms" in the former category and "femto/picoswarms" in the latter.

Another major setting element that owes its existence to metaplot in some part includes a bunch of interstellar "gates" that a corporation maintains control over and which humanity uses to access other worlds. According to the metaplot, these "gates" were made by the evil AI according to the evil alien probe's instructions for whatever reason.

There is also some plot with aliens from another system arriving to meet transhumanity. These aliens are evolved amoeboe/slime molds that have nebulous intentions that are never explained ever beyond possibly being emissaries from some alliance of alien races (this extremely interesting plot point is not examined at all outside of the GM's sections, in fact I don't recall ANYTHING mentioned about these guys outside of the GM's section). Also there are some other aliens that were destroyed by their evil alien induced AI uprising that don't really have much relevance to the story other than as the source of some "mysterious ruins" on some other planets.

Speaking of PCs, the general assumption of this game is that you play as agents belonging to an organization called "Firewall" that are dedicated to protecting humanity (and "solving the metaplot"), which is news to me since this seemingly incredibly important to the game's assumptions group isn't even mentioned till almost the end of the book, which to me is another sign that the book's writers couldn't make up their minds on how one was actually supposed to play a game in their little "realm" so to speak.

In terms of the "lore" of the game, it suffers from a lack of direction. I understand that familiarizing players with an entirely new setting is difficult to some degree or other, but actually useful info is buried beneath lore that is either boring, useless, or outright contradicting. For example the setting is meant to be "post scarcity" yet apparently there are only something like half a billion to a billion actual people with bodies in the solar system now, with the vast majority in "information form" as uploaded consciousnesses in computers (don't quote me on exact numbers though-- all I know is that, all in all, the total pop is now way less than even 7 billion), not counting things like the "Jovian fascists." Mechanics don't seem incredibly janky, except for using a percentile system that rapidly becomes cluttered, as well as forcing players to use the infamous "scatter table" for grenades.

In conclusion, this rpg earns the dubious distinction of being something I would rather cannibalize for parts so to speak rather than actually play. TBH, I would probably only be half as bothered as I am about this game if, like some other things, it weren't so fanatically insistent that it's ""totally HaRd ScI-Fi!!111!!"" I'm curious however what you people think of this (feel free to ask for additional info if needed).

[LadyTevar]

I think Sir Nitram, my husband and a former board member (RIP) helped beta-test the first edition. I think his character "Four-10" was immortalized as one of the sample PC/NPCs in the rule book?

Or maybe I'm wrong. It's been nearly 10yrs since Nitram died.

[bilateralrope]

I remember looking at the first edition years ago. I want to do something with the whole uploading your mind into a new body aspect of transhumanism, but the rules were a bit too mechanically complicated for it to be something I'd want to run.

[Composeure]

Tbh I feel the mechanical jankiness mostly stemmed from being crammed into a system (the Shadowrun base) that wasn't really a good fit for it (it seemed like every other "rules calculation" verged into the infamous "treading water in Shadowrun" level of meaningless complexity). The fact that important info (on the same topic, no less) was scattered across multiple different parts of the book didn't help either.

I still won't forgive the game for taking the most exciting/interesting parts of an otherwise poorly written setting and marginalizing them to almost not being mentioned.

Although to give some credit, the general themes of this rpg are probably things I would crib for my scifi settings and rpgs in general (including SW, etc.).

And tbh, I wouldn't have as much a problem with the things this game tries to push (especially in terms of tech and stuff) if it weren't so dead set that all of it is ""hard scifi"" (scientific errors notwithstanding).

[Jub]

Tbh I feel the mechanical jankiness mostly stemmed from being crammed into a system (the Shadowrun base) that wasn't really a good fit for it (it seemed like every other "rules calculation" verged into the infamous "treading water in Shadowrun" level of meaningless complexity). The fact that important info (on the same topic, no less) was scattered across multiple different parts of the book didn't help either.

I still won't forgive the game for taking the most exciting/interesting parts of an otherwise poorly written setting and marginalizing them to almost not being mentioned.

Although to give some credit, the general themes of this rpg are probably things I would crib for my scifi settings and rpgs in general (including SW, etc.).

And tbh, I wouldn't have as much a problem with the things this game tries to push (especially in terms of tech and stuff) if it weren't so dead set that all of it is ""hard scifi"" (scientific errors notwithstanding).

There's a much simplified second edition if you enjoy the ideas behind the system but didn't like the way the first edition handled things.

As for the setting, I think it leaves things unsaid so that different groups can find their own answers. If it's said in a book you'll always get that one player who will try to railroad the game toward it. For Eclipse Phase when exploration is a core theme I think it was smart to leave many questions open-ended.

[Composeure]

Problem is, I didn't get "exploration is a main theme" from the setting. If anything, it seems very insular. I still honestly don't like certain lore descriptions (especially not how the book is structured in a way in which lore overtakes actual useful material).

Tbh I feel this game suffers from being too setting specific.

[Jub]

Problem is, I didn't get "exploration is a main theme" from the setting. If anything, it seems very insular. I still honestly don't like certain lore descriptions (especially not how the book is structured in a way in which lore overtakes actual useful material).

There's a whole section on gatecrashing where you go an explore alien worlds via gateways left behind by the Titans. That might have been in a supplement in 1st edition but it's right in the main book in the current edition.

Tbh I feel this game suffers from being too setting specific.

I don't feel the same, you could very easily run the setting as an Altered Carbon game, or with a little more work you could set it in the Culture Universe. It's not as broad as GURPS or Traveller but far less specific than a Star Wars game or even D&D and Pathfinder tend to be.

[Composeure]

Fwiw the nlf nanowank and biowank kind of grates on me as well. Although that's a rather minor complaint anyhow-- so long as people don't insist that it's ""hard scifi"".

I'd like to see your interpretation of that, considering it really is a rather specific game setting-- spaceships have practically no focus, the default environment are space habitats/environment habitats, total population is actually tiny (reviewed the pop numbers, apparently it's half a billion total in the entire solar system!?), entire vibe is set up as a very fragmented place. On your specific examples, Altered Carbon actually already has an rpg of its own. I admit I would actually like to see the Cultureverse* in rpg form though, but I disagree that Eclipse Phase would work well for that.

Note that GURPS Transhuman probably is a better take on the "themes" of Eclipse Phase than Eclipse Phase. Also note that the GURPS tech table is somewhat janky though and makes questionable decisions in terms of "tech progression."

*[insert obligatory rant about how that series has been ruined by wankers on SB who have turned it into this ridiculous sacred cow on that board and will not tolerate any dissent]

[Jub]

Fwiw the nlf nanowank and biowank kind of grates on me as well. Although that's a rather minor complaint anyhow-- so long as people don't insist that it's ""hard scifi"".

The setting was laid down in a period when people were a little more hopeful and thought the singularity was coming any day now. I can cut it some slack for having aimed high on where it thought certain technologies might end up.

I also can't speak for other forums, but the crowd on the EP forums, before they closed, were generally pretty reasonable about what bits worked as hard sci-fi and which were there because they made the gameplay smoother.

spaceships have practically no focus

They really don't need one. Most characters will ego cast into and out of situations so a ship is just set dressing for a mission or a chance for downtime activities to progress between story beats.

the default environment are space habitats/environment habitats

Where else would it be set given that Earth is home to active hunter-killer weapons?

total population is actually tiny (reviewed the pop numbers, apparently it's half a billion total in the entire solar system!?)

Yeah, the Titans kind of killed off a lot of people and the solar system was under-colonized before the fall. There are many more infomorphs awaiting servers and/or bodies to awake into and the powers that be are selective about who gets revived and who stays forgotten.

I admit I would actually like to see the Cultureverse* in rpg form though, but I disagree that Eclipse Phase would work well for that.

Fantastic medical tech, radical body morphs, easy access to fabrication tech, magitech that solves plot-related issues. Tweak muses into AI drones and change Firewall to contact and you could get a game going.

-----

This all said I wouldn't ever run Eclipse Phase myself. It feels like a setting that's more interesting to pick apart for other games with rules that are passable but kind of bland.

[Composeure]

The setting was laid down in a period when people were a little more hopeful and thought the singularity was coming any day now. I can cut it some slack for having aimed high on where it thought certain technologies might end up.

I also can't speak for other forums, but the crowd on the EP forums, before they closed, were generally pretty reasonable about what bits worked as hard sci-fi and which were there because they made the gameplay smoother.

Yeah not really much to say here, beyond pointing out that a GURPS Transhuman game with the "tech levels" reworked to whatever you think works best probably would handle the system better.

(quotes on setting details)

The point stands that the actual setting is not very "generic"; in fact, it is actually very specific. With the exception of the tech, which I will address shortly.

Fantastic medical tech, radical body morphs, easy access to fabrication tech, magitech that solves plot-related issues. Tweak muses into AI drones and change Firewall to contact and you could get a game going.

Tbh the real problem with this is that it requires one to really take a look at developing a coherent "tech level" progression and figure out which technologies should be available, considering the "main focuses" of these settings are still very different. Also, I don't recall any such "magitech" in Eclipse Phase, outside of crazy psi stuff (hard scifi!! /s) and possibly leftover evil alien stuff.

This all said I wouldn't ever run Eclipse Phase myself. It feels like a setting that's more interesting to pick apart for other games with rules that are passable but kind of bland.

Yeah this is something I actually agree with. I would vastly prefer to strip out its basic themes and ideas and use them in my own settings rather than play the base setting of this game.

[Jub]

Also, I don't recall any such "magitech" in Eclipse Phase, outside of crazy psi stuff (hard scifi!! /s) and possibly leftover evil alien stuff.

The nanotech gets there as does some of the handwaved hacking and software development stuff.

[Composeure]

Also, I don't recall any such "magitech" in Eclipse Phase, outside of crazy psi stuff (hard scifi!! /s) and possibly leftover evil alien stuff.

The nanotech gets there as does some of the handwaved hacking and software development stuff.

Yeah tbh I feel that's more a product of the book's own lore contrasting slightly with the actual stats at times. The non-evil AI/evil alien stuff isn't extremely out there, with the possible exception of things like "basic biomods" and, depending on your opinion, certain "smart materials" and "nanite based utility" gadgets (and "healing vats"). Most of it is the result of having a lot of logical issues get handwaved.

"Handwaved hacking/software" stuff I don't really mind because I really don't think telling the players to go spend all their skill points on learning a dozen different programming languages is a viable design decision.

[Adam Reynolds]

I have rather mixed feelings about it as a setting/game, which is why I've never actually used it despite the fact that of the big established settings it is probably among the ones closest to what I really want in a setting. I'd also agree that the second edition is vastly better and there is also a regular Fate version for the first edition if you'd rather use that as well, but I would personally just used a build of Fate Accelerated instead because you can keep approaches even as you change morphs and it doesn't require explaining what the stats mean.

In terms of the setting rather than the system, on one hand, its spacecraft are actually more plausible than The Expanse, given that they use mattter/antimatter, fusion, and metallic hydrogen rockets that are more in line with real physics than the more or less impossibly efficient engines in The Expanse. I also think that given current technological trends, biotech and AI seem more likely to advance than spacecraft or space habitats, and the use of upload based travel(referred to as egocasting) is a nice way to get around the limitations of space travel itself. On some leve I also like the Ghost in the Shell concept of allowing people to upload their consciousness into android or synthetic biology bodies on some level, as it allows all sorts of cool action premises in ways that could be interesting to play with.

At the same time, I think The Expanse is actually just better as an overall setting in nearly all respects in terms of being interestingly gameable(even though I actually dislike the offical RPG in terms of rules even more than Eclipse Phase). The dynamic of allowing morphs and forking makes it extremely hard to have consequences for the heroes when they are in physical danger, and there are plenty of ways for PCs to exploit this dynamic for literal profit. When contrasted with The Expanse, Eclipse Phase also just plain has too many options, in which PCs can use anything from lasers to clouds of nanobots, in contrast to the much simpler dynamic of powered armor and low level enhancement with otherwise fairly conventional tech like guns.

I don't feel the same, you could very easily run the setting as an Altered Carbon game, or with a little more work you could set it in the Culture Universe. It's not as broad as GURPS or Traveller but far less specific than a Star Wars game or even D&D and Pathfinder tend to be.

I feel like Star Wars is far more broad in terms of genre options, having done everything from a horror-survival game about the immediate aftermath of Order 66, a mystery-thriller in the last days of the Imperial Senate, a combination engineering challenge/heist about building and then stealing the X-wing, and a Star Trek style game of exploration about redrawing hyperspace lanes in the early days of the New Republic that featured an archaeological mystery. Though this might also just be a result of the fact that I know Star Wars better than just about any other setting in a way that makes it easier to use.

Also, if you want a system that is more or less The Culture, Mindjammer seems like a better fit than Eclipse Phase. The default version uses the Fate system, but there is also a version for Traveller(Mongooses's updated version of the classic SF RPG). Mindjammer also does another thing vastly better than Eclipse Phase which is that it manages to avoid much of the confusing terminology despite featuring a universe that is just as complicated. Just trying to explain the rules to players in EP requires an entirely new set of terminology despite the fact that Somantics are just STR and Reflex is just DEX.

The setting was laid down in a period when people were a little more hopeful and thought the singularity was coming any day now. I can cut it some slack for having aimed high on where it thought certain technologies might end up.

I also can't speak for other forums, but the crowd on the EP forums, before they closed, were generally pretty reasonable about what bits worked as hard sci-fi and which were there because they made the gameplay smoother.

When The Expanse gets referred to as semi-hard SF even though its engines are more or less impossible and it has FTL via the ring gate, that term is rather muddled anyway. No interesting setting is hard SF because everyone cheats, with the most impossible thing FTL being the most common form of cheating.

[Jub]

Yeah tbh I feel that's more a product of the book's own lore contrasting slightly with the actual stats at times. The non-evil AI/evil alien stuff isn't extremely out there, with the possible exception of things like "basic biomods" and, depending on your opinion, certain "smart materials" and "nanite based utility" gadgets (and "healing vats"). Most of it is the result of having a lot of logical issues get handwaved.

"Handwaved hacking/software" stuff I don't really mind because I really don't think telling the players to go spend all their skill points on learning a dozen different programming languages is a viable design decision.

I think you could handwave wifi hacking and nano swarms as the results of an effector but it's kind of moot as any game set in the culture universe would likely be set in some backwater and you could use whatever setting you like with some added "magic" to represent such worlds.

[Jub]

PCs can use anything from lasers to clouds of nanobots, in contrast to the much simpler dynamic of powered armor and low level enhancement with otherwise fairly conventional tech like guns.

I think the setting has a "You could but should you?" attitude toward players massing up toys and going in guns blazing. There's also the fact that the places that would let you build such toys freely would take months to ship them to your next adventure location and the settings you're likely to adventure in restrict what can be printed such that making anything fun risks blowing your cover.

I feel like Star Wars is far more broad in terms of genre options, having done everything from a horror-survival game about the immediate aftermath of Order 66, a mystery-thriller in the last days of the Imperial Senate, a combination engineering challenge/heist about building and then stealing the X-wing, and a Star Trek style game of exploration about redrawing hyperspace lanes in the early days of the New Republic that featured an archaeological mystery. Though this might also just be a result of the fact that I know Star Wars better than just about any other setting in a way that makes it easier to use.

I think you can, broadest strokes, do much of that anywhere. It's just a matter of how well the rules support the theme and how much the GM needs to flavor the fluff to make it work.

The issue is that Eclipse Phase is pretty meh in terms of rules so I can't see why I wouldn't take the neat ideas and use them with rules I like better.

When The Expanse gets referred to as semi-hard SF even though its engines are more or less impossible and it has FTL via the ring gate, that term is rather muddled anyway. No interesting setting is hard SF because everyone cheats, with the most impossible thing FTL being the most common form of cheating.

For an RPG I think hard sci-fi would be a tough sell to most groups anyway. You'd have extremely high lethality in a setting that, by and large, feels like modern-day but IN SPAAAAACE. It'll always be more interesting and/or playable to fudge things in favor of a good story.

[Composeure]

In terms of the setting rather than the system, on one hand, its spacecraft are actually more plausible than The Expanse, given that they use mattter/antimatter, fusion, and metallic hydrogen rockets that are more in line with real physics than the more or less impossibly efficient engines in The Expanse. I also think that given current technological trends, biotech and AI seem more likely to advance than spacecraft or space habitats, and the use of upload based travel(referred to as egocasting) is a nice way to get around the limitations of space travel itself. On some leve I also like the Ghost in the Shell concept of allowing people to upload their consciousness into android or synthetic biology bodies on some level, as it allows all sorts of cool action premises in ways that could be interesting to play with.

At the same time, I think The Expanse is actually just better as an overall setting in nearly all respects in terms of being interestingly gameable(even though I actually dislike the offical RPG in terms of rules even more than Eclipse Phase). The dynamic of allowing morphs and forking makes it extremely hard to have consequences for the heroes when they are in physical danger, and there are plenty of ways for PCs to exploit this dynamic for literal profit. When contrasted with The Expanse, Eclipse Phase also just plain has too many options, in which PCs can use anything from lasers to clouds of nanobots, in contrast to the much simpler dynamic of powered armor and low level enhancement with otherwise fairly conventional tech like guns.

I have no real problem with the first part of this. Notably, however, as brought up already, egocasting also means that the PCs will functionally never have their "best morphs" on hand if they are traveling. Note that "crafting toys" can be limited depending where you are, and shipping them in will likely take weeks depending where you are.

Tbh I have no real problem with the themes of EC; I think they could be handled much better.

I feel like Star Wars is far more broad in terms of genre options

This is definitely a setting I am thinking of applying the basic themes of EC into.

When The Expanse gets referred to as semi-hard SF even though its engines are more or less impossible and it has FTL via the ring gate, that term is rather muddled anyway. No interesting setting is hard SF because everyone cheats, with the most impossible thing FTL being the most common form of cheating.

Yeah that's why I really dislike how quick people are to claim there favorite work is ""hard scifi!!11!"" considering the term is practically meaningless. If you want me to be frank, I think I have only read one truly "hard scifi" work and it is Weir's Artemis. The more I read the more I think that writing is about setting up themes and tones to tell a story in a setting (how well this actually goes is a point of contention in the literary criticism of the work imo).

but it's kind of moot as any game set in the Cultureverse would likely be set in some backwater and you could use whatever setting you like with some added "magic" to represent such worlds.

I don't agree, considering this is vague enough of a term that one could play a campaign about Thak and Gork, stone age hunter-gatherers on "planet middle of nowhere zeta, the stone age world" in a desolate place of the galaxy. I also don't agree that the tech is '"magic"', if anything I get the sense that a decent portion of it seems like souped up/sidegraded Trek tech, ie definitely not ""hard scifi"" (series also has some serious "early continuity dissonance", not mentioning the interdimensional shenanigans). However, the main themes (that of the Great Powers/Powers That Be of the galaxy and the relative newcomers and mediocrities of the galaxy's interactions with them) are things I would integrate into my settings.

In terms of an actual RPG I would rather include the whole thing in a "universal" system/setting.

The issue is that Eclipse Phase is pretty meh in terms of rules so I can't see why I wouldn't take the neat ideas and use them with rules I like better.

Yeah, the fact remains that I would much rather use the base themes of this rpg and integrate them into a setting (or settings) I like. Also, Mindjammer sounds interesting, might check that out.

[Composeure]

Tbh I have no real problem with the themes of EC; I think they could be handled much better.

To elaborate, I would greatly like to integrate the themes of this setting, as well as those of other media, into settings I actually like (pre-existing or custom).

However, I think however that being tied to certain settings as they are greatly damages their usability.

(This is not mentioning the nigh-rabid fanwanking that certain individuals seen on this very forum as well as-- big maybe-- elsewhere displayed that tend to be associated with some of the aforementioned themes-- if you know you know. Particularly in declaring their favorite work is totes "hard scifi!!111!" and ignoring all argument to the contrary. This is part of why I was somewhat harsh in tone towards EC in the original post. Again, I would have much less of a problem if they had admitted that it's not "hard scifi".)