Fourth Empire vs Lensman

[Shortie]

You really think it can stand up to a n-space weapon? Those things were so powerful even the Arisans couldn't concive of a method of defending against them or understanding the phyics behind the effects of using them. I have no reason to belive its that strong.

Except for the fact that 4th Empire planetary shields could handle a 56 ZT kinetic impact (I think; have find Shortie's calcs on SB); the 4th Imperium shield that the same impact would've taken out was a 1/4 of the power of Dahak's.

The actual calc was that of Iapetus being thrown at Easrth to trash an already battered, jury-rigged and obselete shield. They got a glimpse of it moving at 500km/s and were not at all happy. That's a planet-killing (e32J) event, and while there is no way of estimating how much overkill it was, and how much tougher planetoid shields (or Birhat's one) would be, I think it's fair to say that they'd be fairly serious. OTOH, a moon at 500km/s does not compare to a planet at > c.

I like Weber. But Doc Smith was just about the first scifi I ever read. Pure class.

[Black Admiral]

The actual calc was that of Iapetus being thrown at Easrth to trash an already battered, jury-rigged and obselete shield. They got a glimpse of it moving at 500km/s and were not at all happy. That's a planet-killing (e32J) event, and while there is no way of estimating how much overkill it was, and how much tougher planetoid shields (or Birhat's one) would be, I think it's fair to say that they'd be fairly serious. OTOH, a moon at 500km/s does not compare to a planet at > c.

I like Weber. But Doc Smith was just about the first scifi I ever read. Pure class.

So, any rough estimates on how absurdly hard to breach Birhat's system shield is?

[FBHthelizardmage]

isn't the hieght of the lensmans power the bit were they mentally blast Eldoria out of existance?

Plus, while the fourth empire may be able to one hit on kill lensman ships, Lensman planet killers can probabbly manage the same feet.

[Black Admiral]

isn't the hieght of the lensmans power the bit were they mentally blast Eldoria out of existance?

You'll note that I specified in the OP that the Children aren't involved.

[Darth_Shinji]

Black Admiral, there is simply no way the Birhat shield is going to sustain a massive barrage of planets and N-space weapons, no way. Sooner or later, they will go down, my bets are on sooner, and onces its done, bye bye Birhat's sun.....Considering this is acdemic as a shield isn't going to stop a hyper tube anyway.

I checked that part; you're right. It still doesn't mean that a planetoid pulling evasive action at 800 C can get caught.

We're talking about them in realspace, which means no E-drive or hyper on. Your talking about reacting to a ftl object at non-ftl speeds.

Still, Dahakverse shields are pretty damn different from any in the Lensman-verse; besides the blocking hyperspatial weapons fire, there's the fact that they're evidently multi-dimensional, and kind of don't go down that easily (AFAIA the only way to take them down (short of huge amounts of energy weapons fire that'd likely vape a planet several times over) is to hit the generator with a hyper missile).

Nega-spheres are not Dahak hyperspace related, nor do they work in terms of yields. Dahak-verse has nothing like it to compare.

How about the fact that we've seen planetoids manouvre in E-drive before (would've had to when evading the supernova they set off)?

The wave only reached Zeta after they left in the jump. Plus thats in ftl, we are talking about a planetiod in realspace, no hyper or e-drive, just in realspace.

Well, since Amanda uses a sustained warp rifle beam during the boarding action on Vindicator to remove a blast door (page 225), and warp cannons are basically scaled up versions, *shrugs*

Quite a difference between a blast door and chunks off a planet. Your trying to show warp cannon size not a rifles.

That's less than a hypermissile's flight time, and Dahak-verse ships can react fast enough to fire that quickly.

And how are they going to get thru the fleet or weapon that just came thru? Plus be in postion in the first place as I've pointed out.

Parasites don't rely on shields and armour to survive; instead they live by evading. Remember what happened when they hit the 'Tani head-on?

Hard to evade someone faster in non-ftl. Remember, partol ships can go as fast as they want uo to thier ftl limits. They just have to go slow enought to see the other side, they can still go faster.

I'm saying that Colin can't be called completely reliable here, as, while he intellectually understands that the 4thE's warheads are bigger, he still thinks of gigatonne range weaponry as ridiculously powerful. Did you forget that he's from an Earth that isn't that much more advanced than ours?

His wife isn't, and they aren't the only ones. The difference is that they are calling them monsters after having 4th empire tech. All the others call them nasty too.

No, my quote says what the missile's yields are measured in. And besides which, we never see any 3rdI tech in the books. I think you're referring to the 4thI missiles.

Yes I screwed up, its 4th imperuim-4thempire. 4thi are never measured in yeilds in the books, just 4th empire. The rest is naritor stating the yeild to us the audence.

[Black Admiral]

Black Admiral, there is simply no way the Birhat shield is going to sustain a massive barrage of planets and N-space weapons, no way. Sooner or later, they will go down, my bets are on sooner, and onces its done, bye bye Birhat's sun.....Considering this is acdemic as a shield isn't going to stop a hyper tube anyway.

*shrugs* Gotta try and argue for my favourite 'verse.

We're talking about them in realspace, which means no E-drive or hyper on. Your talking about reacting to a ftl object at non-ftl speeds.

Um, they are in realspace under E-drive D_S. Dahak specifically differentiates between multi-dimensional drives like hyper engines and the E-drive in the first book.

Nega-spheres are not Dahak hyperspace related, nor do they work in terms of yields. Dahak-verse has nothing like it to compare.

*shrugs again* Just pointing out that Dahakverse shields work differently to Lensman ones.

The wave only reached Zeta after they left in the jump. Plus thats in ftl, we are talking about a planetiod in realspace, no hyper or e-drive, just in realspace.

Like I said, E-drive is realspace.

Quite a difference between a blast door and chunks off a planet. Your trying to show warp cannon size not a rifles.

Well, the rifle's the only warp weapon we really see, aside from warp grenades, and I can't exactly apply their operating principles to naval warp guns now can I?

And how are they going to get thru the fleet or weapon that just came thru? Plus be in postion in the first place as I've pointed out.

Um, hypermissiles can and do gho through anything in realspace that isn't in the co-ordinates they were programmed to come out in, and you can launch them any direction you damn well like.

Hard to evade someone faster in non-ftl. Remember, partol ships can go as fast as they want uo to thier ftl limits. They just have to go slow enought to see the other side, they can still go faster.

Fair enough.

His wife isn't, and they aren't the only ones. The difference is that they are calling them monsters after having 4th empire tech. All the others call them nasty too.

I've found exactly one reference to Achuultani missiles being 'monstrous warheads', and that is from Colin's POV the first time he's actually seen them in action.

Yes I screwed up, its 4th imperuim-4thempire. 4thi are never measured in yeilds in the books, just 4th empire. The rest is naritor stating the yeild to us the audence.

True.

[Currald]

Okay, A little info about Lensmen.

Weapon strenght:
Primaries
I don't have access to the searcch engine on archive right now, but I do know there's a calc in there that puts original primaries in the TT range. If anyone wants to find it, the thread is calcing lensmen or lenmen techinical info, something along those lines. Note, this is the orginal primarie before medon conductors upped the power of all ship tech and the creation of superdreadnoughts that forcus all of thier power in a single primary.

The midrange calculation was 3.337e14 tons per shot. This, IIRC was after the implementation of Medonian technology and represents the primary armament of the superdreadnoughts and maulers. The supermaulers' gun would over 16 times more powerful, though. http://bbs2.stardestroyer.net/Archive/v ... 6&start=75 The superdreadnoughts and maulers were designed to destroy other ships, while the supermaulers were to destroyed heavily-screen ground installations on dirigible planets.

A hyperspace-travelling missile would probably be ineffective against GP ships unless it came out of hyperspace directly inside the target. It's possible that a Palainian or other frigid-blooded species could detect such missiles before they arrived, but that is mere speculation on my part. Just because a species can perform brain surgery without opening someone's skull does not necessarily imply a complete mastery of all fourth-(spacial) dimensional phenomena.

[Black Admiral]

A hyperspace-travelling missile would probably be ineffective against GP ships unless it came out of hyperspace directly inside the target. It's possible that a Palainian or other frigid-blooded species could detect such missiles before they arrived, but that is mere speculation on my part. Just because a species can perform brain surgery without opening someone's skull does not necessarily imply a complete mastery of all fourth-(spacial) dimensional phenomena.

Well, where a hypermissile appears depends on whether there's a hyper shield of the appropriate frequency blocking it, and how good the firing ship's lock is.

4th Empire ships were consistantly placing hyper missiles inside Achuultani ships during The Armageddon Inheritance, which is no mean feat since 'Tani shields are actually better at blocking hyper bands than their Imperial counterparts, as 'Tani shields are a series of plate-like projections pulled tightly to the hull, reducing the target cross-section, and each plate can cover several different hyper bands, which makes it hard to guess which ones to fire through.

Two questions: what's Lensman hyperspace like, and do the GP have shields against hyperspatial phenomona (like, say, a hyper-travelling munition)?

[Darth_Shinji]

Um, they are in realspace under E-drive D_S. Dahak specifically differentiates between multi-dimensional drives like hyper engines and the E-drive in the first book.

Read the part when they are entering Birhat, there blind and afraid there about to be wiped out.

*shrugs again* Just pointing out that Dahakverse shields work differently to Lensman ones.

True, but unless theres are reason to think it would stop them it's more likly that they don't.

Like I said, E-drive is realspace.

Fine, non-ftl if I really have to spell it out.

Well, the rifle's the only warp weapon we really see, aside from warp grenades, and I can't exactly apply their operating principles to naval warp guns now can I?

Which is why saying there anywhere near the size needed is kinda far-fect.

Um, hypermissiles can and do gho through anything in realspace that isn't in the co-ordinates they were programmed to come out in, and you can launch them any direction you damn well like.

So there going to go thru something as weird as a hypertube in weber hyperspace? I doubt it, they not the same thing and I think most likly they don't connect at all.

I've found exactly one reference to Achuultani missiles being 'monstrous warheads', and that is from Colin's POV the first time he's actually seen them in action.

There called big and nasty by at least one of the guys when the Tani scouts first attacked.




And as far as hyper missles go no, Lensmen shields will not work on hyoerbands, but are skin tight on the ship and I'm under the immpression a inner hit was not usaul. Take the defenses in the third book constantly missed a inner hit on the parasite the kids were on. It did happen, but more likly it hit shields, expesaly Tani ships.

[Captain Cyran]

Well, where a hypermissile appears depends on whether there's a hyper shield of the appropriate frequency blocking it, and how good the firing ship's lock is.

4th Empire ships were consistantly placing hyper missiles inside Achuultani ships during The Armageddon Inheritance, which is no mean feat since 'Tani shields are actually better at blocking hyper bands than their Imperial counterparts, as 'Tani shields are a series of plate-like projections pulled tightly to the hull, reducing the target cross-section, and each plate can cover several different hyper bands, which makes it hard to guess which ones to fire through.

Two questions: what's Lensman hyperspace like, and do the GP have shields against hyperspatial phenomona (like, say, a hyper-travelling munition)?

Actually I think it is stated that Hyper missiles can't be put into a ship. At the very least they can't enter the ground. As it's stated that a very well placed Hyper missile can be put almost inside a planet... ALMOST. Putting a hypermissile in a ship is, as far as I know, impossible.

[Black Admiral]

Read the part when they are entering Birhat, there blind and afraid there about to be wiped out.

I did. They aren't blind in E-drive, they just don't have any idea what's going to be waiting for them.

True, but unless theres are reason to think it would stop them it's more likly that they don't.

True. Of course, since we have no idea how it penetrates shields it's nebulous, at best.

Fine, non-ftl if I really have to spell it out.

Fine, non-FTL. In which case the planetoid is likely toast (unfortunately of course we have absolutely no idea what kind of punsihment a 4thE planetoid can take from non-hyperspatial weapons).

Which is why saying there anywhere near the size needed is kinda far-fect.

There's always wide-field mode.

So there going to go thru something as weird as a hypertube in weber hyperspace? I doubt it, they not the same thing and I think most likly they don't connect at all.

I was thinking more prescision jump-out in all honesty.

There called big and nasty by at least one of the guys when the Tani scouts first attacked.

Yep, which is people using 4thI tech, and that didn't have bigger AM weapons than 10 GT. It's mentioned at one point that the 'Tani warheads are at least equal to any M/AM weapons that Nergal can reply with.

And as far as hyper missles go no, Lensmen shields will not work on hyoerbands, but are skin tight on the ship and I'm under the immpression a inner hit was not usaul. Take the defenses in the third book constantly missed a inner hit on the parasite the kids were on. It did happen, but more likly it hit shields, expesaly Tani ships.

Internal hits actually tend to be fairly common (against the Achuultani at least), and do the GP have any way of blocking the fold-space scanners which seem to be the 4thE's main fire control systems?

[Black Admiral]

Actually I think it is stated that Hyper missiles can't be put into a ship. At the very least they can't enter the ground. As it's stated that a very well placed Hyper missile can be put almost inside a planet... ALMOST. Putting a hypermissile in a ship is, as far as I know, impossible.

Well, it may be impossible, but Earth's defences managed it anyway:

Slayer crumpled in on himself as a missile breached his shield; War Hoof simply disappeared, and the range was far too long for his own hypermissiles.

[Currald]

Two questions: what's Lensman hyperspace like, and do the GP have shields against hyperspatial phenomona (like, say, a hyper-travelling munition)?

Lensman hyperspace is the classic 4D wormhole. A ground-based generator is required at one end, and the appropriate equipment must be installed on the ship. Transmissions want' go through the hyper-tube, but ships, dirigible planets, negaspheres, etc. can. It can be aimed accurately (within feet, or within millimeters with a homing device at the target), but cannot be aimed too close to a large gravitational body (In the Sol system, for instance, it cannot be aimed at anything within over 1AU of Sol).

[Black Admiral]

Lensman hyperspace is the classic 4D wormhole. A ground-based generator is required at one end, and the appropriate equipment must be installed on the ship. Transmissions want' go through the hyper-tube, but ships, dirigible planets, negaspheres, etc. can. It can be aimed accurately (within feet, or within millimeters with a homing device at the target), but cannot be aimed too close to a large gravitational body (In the Sol system, for instance, it cannot be aimed at anything within over 1AU of Sol).

I see. Well, Dahakverse hyperspace is described as a grey mass which looking at for too long can cause nausea, vertigo and eventually madness, so they probably aren't the same.

[HRogge]

OTOH, a moon at 500km/s does not compare to a planet at > c.

We don't know this because we have no idea how to calculate the KE of an FTL object... all we know is that you cannot use newton/einsteins formulas, because you get infinite KE as soon as you are NEAR c...

[Atlan]

A question here, but are there instances of GP ships fighting at FTL relative to their target? It's ben a while since I read the books, but from what I remember was that while combat could be at FTL speeds, the ships were not moving very fast relatively to each other.
Also, how can the GP ships fight FTL relative to a non-FTL object? Their reflexes are still human, so any object dodging like a Planetoid can would be a bit of a problem to hit. Hit it with a tractor beam (if you can detect it through it's obscene ECM) and it most likely will just pull you along for a BAD ride.
Just some thoughts.

[Black Admiral]

A question here, but are there instances of GP ships fighting at FTL relative to their target? It's ben a while since I read the books, but from what I remember was that while combat could be at FTL speeds, the ships were not moving very fast relatively to each other.

Well, I've only read Children of the Lens and Galactic Patrol, but the impression I got was that while engagements take place at FTL speeds, as you say, the ships weren't going FTL relative to each other.

[technomage]

Some Imperial warships mount ship-scale warp cannons. After the Siege of Earth, the planetoid Sevrid, a planetary assault vessel, used warp cannons to surgically remove the remaining active weapons turrets on Vindicator, prior the the Marines' boarding it.

Empire From the Ashes, p. 343

MacMahan flinched as the after section of the wrecked hull lashed his shuttles with fire. The crude energy weapons were powerful enough to burn through any assault boat's shield, but they'd fired at extreme range. Only three were hit, and the others went to evasive action, ripping at the wreck with their own energy guns. Sevrid's far heavier weapons reached past them, and warp beams plucked neat, perfect divots from the hull. Air gushed outward, and then the first-wave assault boats reached their goal.

Imperial shield technologies are multi-dimensional, but they're also very simple in how they stop something. They're force fields that manifest as physical objects and block incoming fire. If negaspheres and the like can be stopped by something that simply gets in the way, they're useless. Especially since these shields can undoubtedly regenerate lost sections.

I can't find the quote out of hand, but there is a line which describes Imperial energy-state circuitry and then says that shields were simply a different application of the same technology, on a larger scale.


Dahakverse hyperspace is an entire series of discrete universes in which two corresponding points are in closer congruity than they are in realspace. It's also a universe of pure energy, with no material substance. A ship's drive field is the only thing that keeps something in hyper from instant annihilation. This is also why warp weapons are instant-killers: anything they hit is projected into hyper and obliterated.

EFtA, pp.391-392

The Imperium's mines had entered hyper only to jump into lethal proximity to hyperships as they reentered n-space; the Empire's mines popped into hyper, located the nearest operating hyper field, and then gave selflessly of their own power to make that hyper field even more efficient.

But only locally. A portion of the field was abruptly boosted a dozen bands higher, taking the portion of the ship within it with it, and even ships large enough to lose a slice of themselves and continue fighting in normalspace were doomed in hyper. Its potent tides of energy rent and splintered them and swollowed their broken bones.

pp. 481-482

Then there was hyperspace. Imperial Terra, like all Battle Fleet planetoids, had three distinct drive systems: sublight, Enchanach, and hyperdrive, and her top speed in hyper was over 3200 times that of light. Yet "hyperspace" was more a convenient label for something that no human could envision than an accurate description, for it consisted of many "bands", actually a whole series of entirely different spaces, whose seething tides of energy were lethal to any object outside a drive field. Even with Imperial technology, human eyes fould h-space's gray, crawling nothingness... disturbing. Vertigo was almost instantaneous, longer exposure led to more serious consequences, up to and including madness.

pp. 485-486

"Three minute launch warning," a calm, female voice interrupted the Narhani. "Parasite launch in three minutes. Assume launch stations."

Sean whirled to the command console. Launch stations? You couldn't launch a parasite in hyperspace without destroying parasite and mothership alike--any moron knew that!--but the boards were blinking to life, and his jaw clenched as the launch clock began to count down.

"Oh my God!" Harriet whispered, but Sean was already hammering at the console through his neural feed, and his dark face went white as the computer refused to let him in.

"Computer! Emergency voice override! Abort launch sequence!"

Nothing happened, and Brashan's voice was taut behind him. "The transit shaft has been closed down, Sean."

"Jesus Christ!" With the shaft down, it would take over five minutes to reach the nearest hatch.

"Two minute warning," the computer remarked. "Parasite launch in two minutes. Assume launch stations."

"What do we do, Sean?" Tamman asked harshly, and Sean scrubbed his hands over his face. Then he shook himself. "Man your stations! Try to get into the system and shut this damned thing down, or this crazy computer'll kill us all!"

I've never read any of the Lensman novels, so I don't truly know how the two would compare to each other. The closest comparison I can make is that the Fifth Imperium, the descendant of the Fourth Empire, would be a minor power in comparison to the Culture, and I understand the Culture is an equal match for Civilization and the Galactic Patrol.

[Darth_Shinji]

I'll come back to the whole hyper missle thing when I read more, but here is a few things I wanted to comment on.

FTL fighting: Yes, as I said before Lensmen ships seem to have to fight relative to each other. But they can commincate and scan things non-ftl while in ftl. Which brings us too:

Senors and cloaking: Both sides use sensors that are compleatly different, Dahak uses fold-space which uses hyperspace, and Lensmen uses ultrawave which is a sub demension of realspace (sub either). This means while both can see each other niether can cloak or jam the other.

Shields: AmInh pg 20:

"Shield density is a function of shield area; after a point, you can't make it any denser, no matter how much power you put into it."

Which means while Dahak has more power, there's still a inhert limit to the stenght of his shield compared to a planets. His will always be weaker, same for 4th empire tech.


Oh and I'll respond to you properly Black Admiral, but...

I did. They aren't blind in E-drive, they just don't have any idea what's going to be waiting for them.

You relise this is a contradiction? They coudn't see what was in the system untill they stopped the E-drive.

[Darth_Shinji]

Some Imperial warships mount ship-scale warp cannons. After the Siege of Earth, the planetoid Sevrid, a planetary assault vessel, used warp cannons to surgically remove the remaining active weapons turrets on Vindicator, prior the the Marines' boarding it.

Empire From the Ashes, p. 343

MacMahan flinched as the after section of the wrecked hull lashed his shuttles with fire. The crude energy weapons were powerful enough to burn through any assault boat's shield, but they'd fired at extreme range. Only three were hit, and the others went to evasive action, ripping at the wreck with their own energy guns. Sevrid's far heavier weapons reached past them, and warp beams plucked neat, perfect divots from the hull. Air gushed outward, and then the first-wave assault boats reached their goal.

The problem here is that its been suggested that these cannons can be used on objects of planetary size when this is the only time we see them in action.

Imperial shield technologies are multi-dimensional, but they're also very simple in how they stop something. They're force fields that manifest as physical objects and block incoming fire. If negaspheres and the like can be stopped by something that simply gets in the way, they're useless. Especially since these shields can undoubtedly regenerate lost sections.

Negasphere's are basicly sphere's of negative mass that when brought into contact with matter and energy nullify each other. The only thing that can effect is gravity in a oppersite effect. Which means a tractor beam set to "push" would only pull it in faster.

[Black Admiral]

I'll come back to the whole hyper missle thing when I read more, but here is a few things I wanted to comment on.

FTL fighting: Yes, as I said before Lensmen ships seem to have to fight relative to each other. But they can commincate and scan things non-ftl while in ftl. Which brings us too:

Senors and cloaking: Both sides use sensors that are compleatly different, Dahak uses fold-space which uses hyperspace, and Lensmen uses ultrawave which is a sub demension of realspace (sub either). This means while both can see each other niether can cloak or jam the other.

Which means any engagement is likely to be fairly damn bloody.

Shields: AmInh pg 20:

"Shield density is a function of shield area; after a point, you can't make it any denser, no matter how much power you put into it."

Which means while Dahak has more power, there's still a inhert limit to the stenght of his shield compared to a planets. His will always be weaker, same for 4th empire tech.

No, the 4thI could never make a shield more powerful past planetoid scale. That was why they never built ground bases; they couldn't effectively defend them.

Oh and I'll respond to you properly Black Admiral, but...

I did. They aren't blind in E-drive, they just don't have any idea what's going to be waiting for them.

You relise this is a contradiction? They coudn't see what was in the system untill they stopped the E-drive.

No, they picked up (IIRC) active targetting etc. while still under E-drive, they just didn't know what the sources were.

[Darth_Shinji]

Which means any engagement is likely to be fairly damn bloody.

Shields: AmInh pg 20:

Where's that? I'm trying to scan thru all I see it thats it's prefered to make defenses on airless moons and asteriods becuase you can't use hypermissles in a atmosphere. No mention of thier shields being the reason.

They picked up that something scanned them from realspace, but they themselves couldn't scan back. It appears to be a natural limatation of E-drives....Quite bad a bad flaw to have against Lensmen too.

[Black Admiral]

Where's that? I'm trying to scan thru all I see it thats it's prefered to make defenses on airless moons and asteriods becuase you can't use hypermissles in a atmosphere. No mention of thier shields being the reason.

I think it might be mentioned in the first book, but since I've leant my copy of that to a friend, I can't confirm.

They picked up that something scanned them from realspace, but they themselves couldn't scan back. It appears to be a natural limatation of E-drives....Quite bad a bad flaw to have against Lensmen too.

I see.

[XaLEv]

They picked up that something scanned them from realspace, but they themselves couldn't scan back. It appears to be a natural limatation of E-drives....Quite bad a bad flaw to have against Lensmen too.

The Armageddon Inheritance, page 140

"There had been no hails or challenges, but they'd been thoroughly scanned by someone (or something) while still a full day short of Birhat."

A full day, at 720 c; ~ 1.86e13 km. Long way.


Could it then, perhaps, be that their inability to scan it in return is a problem of sheer distance?

[Darth_Shinji]

pg 141

The last minutes raced even as they tickled agonizingly slowly. Then Colin felt the start of supralight shutdown in his implants, and suddenly the stars were still.

"Core tap shutdown," Dahak reported, and then, almost instantly, "detection at ten light-minutes. Detection at thirty light-minutes. Detection at five light-hours."

"Display system," Colin snapped, and the sun Bia, Birhat's G0 primary, still twelve light-hours away, was suddenly ringed with a system schematic.

No.