Mimbari- pussies?

[MKSheppard]

It's statements like these that make me very glad that you're not in command of anything more dangerous than your mouth.

Those are the standing ROEs for US pilots over Iraq enforcing the UN No-fly
zone. If you're being painted by Iraqi Fire control radar, you don't fly
straight and level. You pump flares/chaff out and send Mr Iraqi a HARM to
put his radar out of action.

[jaeger115]

Even in todays navies you fire a blank shot as a sign of respect to another warship and flag.

If I recall correctly, the Minbari's gunports were charging up.

[fgalkin]

Even in todays navies you fire a blank shot as a sign of respect to another warship and flag.

With special saluting guns that just make lots of noise and smoke,
not with your main armament.

Well, the Minbari targeting sensors were offline, which means that they were not going to fire. The EA would have realized that if they had bothered to check.

The problem, however, was not in the open gunports, but in the fact that Minbari sensors disrupted the jump engines of the Promitheus, which was interpreted as an agressive act by the captain.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stormbringer]

Even in todays navies you fire a blank shot as a sign of respect to another warship and flag.

If I recall correctly, the Minbari's gunports were charging up.

They weren't and the EA couldn't tell.

[fgalkin]

Even in todays navies you fire a blank shot as a sign of respect to another warship and flag.

If I recall correctly, the Minbari's gunports were charging up.

I don't think so.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stormbringer]

Even in todays navies you fire a blank shot as a sign of respect to another warship and flag.

With special saluting guns that just make lots of noise and smoke,
not with your main armament.

I know that's how they do it these days. But in the old days you'd fire of the appropriate number of your main guns with out shot.

It's an adaptation of that tradition for space ships.

[Enlightenment]

Those are the standing ROEs for US pilots over Iraq enforcing the UN No-fly zone. If you're being painted by Iraqi Fire control radar, you don't fly straight and level. You pump flares/chaff out and send Mr Iraqi a HARM to put his radar out of action.

That's a completely different situation and even you aren't too stupid to realize it. The Iraqi NFZs are basically a warzone with only limited risk of escalation. Dropping a HARM on an Iraqi SAM site or bombing an AD C&C complex isn't going to start a major war.

Look to the cold war ROEs regarding contact with Soviet forces for applicable examples of how to deal with situations that might start WWIII.

[Vympel]

I'd like to know WTF is up with people spelling Minbari as "Mimbari"?
WTF???

Bah who cares. The way they say it on the show it's easy to mistake Min for Mim.

[MKSheppard]

Look to the cold war ROEs regarding contact with Soviet forces for applicable examples of how to deal with situations that might start WWIII.

So if my CVBG is being painted with targetting radar from a Kirov
battlegroup, what do I do?

[m112880]

If I recall correctly, the Minbari's gunports were charging up.

The EA could not tell true. Why was that the Minbari scanners were disablering the EA's jump engines and their scanners. Thats why the EA fired was because the only thing they know was that they had unknowed ships coming at them with open gun ports, all their scanners being jam, and jump engines off line.

[Stormbringer]

Look to the cold war ROEs regarding contact with Soviet forces for applicable examples of how to deal with situations that might start WWIII.

So if my CVBG is being painted with targetting radar from a Kirov
battlegroup, what do I do?

If you did it in Soviet waters you'd hightail it out of there.

[Enlightenment]

So if my CVBG is being painted with targetting radar from a Kirov battlegroup, what do I do?

If in the Bear's back yard (e.g. on the edge of territorial waters), corpen and get the hell out of dodge. Barring orders to attack the USSR, of course.

Elsewhere, go GC, power up the ECM gear, arm the missiles, circle zebra, keep the ablative armor (frigates ) between the Kirov and the CV. Keep going and hope the Bear isn't in a killing mood. Keep a CAP up to encourage the Soviet taskforce to behave itself. Inform higher command.

Note that the first situation is almost exactly what EF ran into.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm not making excuses for the Minbari; I'm aruging that EA was nothing more than a bunch of worthless hatfuckers who deserved to get cut down to size and that xenocide--even if the Minbari intended to go that far--wouldn't have removed anything of value from the B5 universe.

But I like the EA

[Malecoda]

Even in todays navies you fire a blank shot as a sign of respect to another warship and flag.

With special saluting guns that just make lots of noise and smoke,
not with your main armament.

I know that's how they do it these days. But in the old days you'd fire of the appropriate number of your main guns with out shot.

It's an adaptation of that tradition for space ships.

OK, for one thing, who said Minbari traditions were adapted from ours? If that were the case, this situation would have been much simpler. The point was that neither side understood each other. To say it is an adaptation would imply that conflict would have been avoided in the first place.

Second, the Minbari made a stupid choice. I hate when plot points of movies turn on stupid decisions. This one was so boneheaded (koff) it ruined the movie. It wouldn't matter what the cultural mores were, it's still stupid. It's my biggest sci-fi pet peeve, that Minbari gunport scene. The second biggest was the "they have the same soul as we do" deux ex machina. Oh fuckin puke. Strange, bec I really do like that movie. It was much more enjoyable than any ST, for sure. Everything in that movie was so solid and right, but for those 2 big fuckin dumps it shit all over the audience. DW has done a better job articulating the problems with the gunports than I could, so I'll leave it at that.

Finally, navy ships don't salute each other with their saluting batteries. Those are used when a real salute is called for, such as funerals, Independence Day, or whatnot. Navy ships do salute each other with Morse code and, if they get close enough to see, by dipping the ensign (the junior captain dips his flag first). All that is is lowering the ensign to half-mast, waiting for the return salute, and then hoisting it back up. If one ship doesn't dip, it's generally not a big deal.

[Stormbringer]

With special saluting guns that just make lots of noise and smoke,
not with your main armament.

I know that's how they do it these days. But in the old days you'd fire of the appropriate number of your main guns with out shot.

It's an adaptation of that tradition for space ships.

OK, for one thing, who said Minbari traditions were adapted from ours? If that were the case, this situation would have been much simpler. The point was that neither side understood each other. To say it is an adaptation would imply that conflict would have been avoided in the first place.

It's not one adapted from us. But presumeably a space age adaptation of a similar Minbari tradition.

Second, the Minbari made a stupid choice. I hate when plot points of movies turn on stupid decisions. This one was so boneheaded (koff) it ruined the movie. It wouldn't matter what the cultural mores were, it's still stupid. It's my biggest sci-fi pet peeve, that Minbari gunport scene. The second biggest was the "they have the same soul as we do" deux ex machina. Oh fuckin puke. Strange, bec I really do like that movie. It was much more enjoyable than any ST, for sure. Everything in that movie was so solid and right, but for those 2 big fuckin dumps it shit all over the audience. DW has done a better job articulating the problems with the gunports than I could, so I'll leave it at that.

It's was dumb move. Why do you think Duhkat wanted them closed? It was a solely Warrior Caste tradition on the other hand; not a Minbari tradition at large. The problem is the Warrior Caste approached them as they would another of their ships. A dumb mistake, but understandable given the Caste involved.

Finally, navy ships don't salute each other with their saluting batteries. Those are used when a real salute is called for, such as funerals, Independence Day, or whatnot. Navy ships do salute each other with Morse code and, if they get close enough to see, by dipping the ensign (the junior captain dips his flag first). All that is is lowering the ensign to half-mast, waiting for the return salute, and then hoisting it back up. If one ship doesn't dip, it's generally not a big deal.

Funny, I've sailed a couple of times on US Navy Frigate, and they did use the Saluting Battery to salute the harbor masters at both the ports and for a WW2 submarine anchored as a museum.

Either way, the Minbari must have treated it as a formal ocassion worthy of rendering such honors.

[Malecoda]

yeah, i forgot abt the argument onboard abt the gunports. too bad, so sad. i think that one's been covered ok. I can't tell you abt the frigate salutes, but it sounds like a tiger cruise, and given the nature of the cruise and the people who were saluted, it sounds like it was all part of the show. really, navy ships don't use the saluting battery to salute a ship every time they see one. more thoughts on that:

navy ships are busy, continuously loud, stressful places to live. they actually try to minimize the noise. all the other noise that goes on is essential, but the saluting battery is for show, not for routine.

by the same token, why bother the gunner and waste the time and effort?

the saluting procedures are in a confidential pub, i.e., it's codified. what I said still stands. I was on a ship for 2 years, and we didn't use the saluting batteries once.

[Stormbringer]

yeah, i forgot abt the argument onboard abt the gunports. too bad, so sad. i think that one's been covered ok. I can't tell you abt the frigate salutes, but it sounds like a tiger cruise, and given the nature of the cruise and the people who were saluted, it sounds like it was all part of the show. really, navy ships don't use the saluting battery to salute a ship every time they see one. more thoughts on that:

navy ships are busy, continuously loud, stressful places to live. they actually try to minimize the noise. all the other noise that goes on is essential, but the saluting battery is for show, not for routine.

by the same token, why bother the gunner and waste the time and effort?

the saluting procedures are in a confidential pub, i.e., it's codified. what I said still stands. I was on a ship for 2 years, and we didn't use the saluting batteries once.

I understand that, it was essentially a publicity cruise of the Great Lakes and I don't doubt that such saluting is usually not done with the batteries. But the point stands. The saluting battery is used for special occasions.

[SyntaxVorlon]

Unless you'd forgotten, none of these minbari would have had any contact with other races. Contact had been limited for centuries, the Centauri and all the other Earth friendly species had roughly zero current contact with them. If they had actual contact in the first place then the EA would not have sent warships to explore and make contact.
In such a cultural vacuum the Minbari would have acted as if they were approaching other minbari, and opened their gunports. Granted this is a stretch, but not as big a one as many are trying to make it. Perhaps if you had been the highest ranking warrior on that ship, maybe you'd have had the sense not to order such a thing. However, as the Minbari warriors had not had to use such sense, they would not have known to use it. Indeed they tried to turn off the weapons as soon as they found out that they were open, but they were too late. The Grey council had not ordered that gun ports be opened, it was just the accepted polite thing to do.
"Statistics is just Common Sense boiled down to Calculus"-Fermat(to Voltaire)
"Common Sense is not so common"-Voltaire(in response)

[Malecoda]

by that token, if one of our ships discovered an unknown country, naturally we'd send off a challenge and reply bec it's "what we normally do".

and to the other guy, I never said saluting wasn't for special occasions. i said the exact opposite. Someone said that saluting batteries were used to honor other ships, I contradicted it, and you say basically what i said.

what is wrong with you people?

[m112880]

As an aside, the "gun ports open" idea is the most fantastically stupid idea I've ever heard. It's cultural relativism gone wild. Since when did JMS think that any culture, no matter how alien, would consider bared weapons a peaceful sign?

Many Militarys today do it. When troops are at formation officers hold their swords up. Theres a little movement called present arms where troops will hold their rifles out.

[AdmiralKanos]

As an aside, the "gun ports open" idea is the most fantastically stupid idea I've ever heard. It's cultural relativism gone wild. Since when did JMS think that any culture, no matter how alien, would consider bared weapons a peaceful sign?

Many Militarys today do it. When troops are at formation officers hold their swords up. Theres a little movement called present arms where troops will hold their rifles out.

When you present arms, you hold your rifle out, but it's sideways relative to your body. You couldn't exactly shoot someone while holding your rifle in that position.

There's a huge difference between holding your rifle out and pointing it at someone.

[Vympel]

Many Militarys today do it. When troops are at formation officers hold their swords up. Theres a little movement called present arms where troops will hold their rifles out.

I should also add that this is only done in parades. Hardly analagous to naval maneuvers.

[Bob McDob]

So if my CVBG is being painted with targetting radar from a Kirov battlegroup, what do I do?

If in the Bear's back yard (e.g. on the edge of territorial waters), corpen and get the hell out of dodge. Barring orders to attack the USSR, of course.

...

Note that the first situation is almost exactly what EF ran into.

They couldn't jump, remember?

[Enlightenment]

Yeah, so? Turn tail at sublight. It's a non-threatening gesture (at least in the B5 universe; ships with photon drives shouldn't try this) and the EF fleet would be making the point that they're prepared to leave as soon as the Minbari decide to let them go.

[Coalition]

If the Earth Alliance vessels had turned tail, they would have left themselves vulnerable to engine hits.

Not to mention the Captain in charge of the mission was gung-ho, "We handled the Dilgar, we can handle a few stray ships"type

Also, the Warrior caste could have opened gunports for another reason, to show off their weapons to each other. They try to play it off as a "gesture of strength, we approach them open-handed", but in reality they are a bunch of gun nuts showing off their latest toys. <G>

Warrior Caste tradition + Gung-ho EA Captain = trouble

I wonder if the Admiral who selected that Captain got into any trouble for the choice. "Okay, Captain Jankowski was a known loose cannon. Who sent HIM into a First Contact situation?"