Motives for interstellar warfare

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Back to motive-

The Killing Star has an interesting hypothesis, but I think even that is too anthropocentric. Why necessarily would most civilization's technological development lead to rocketry at all? There are plenty of imaginable pathways for humanity that could have skipped rocketry in its current forms, or trapped us in technological stagnation. I think it's far more likely that whatever civilizations exist in the universe, most of them probably do not reach rocketry and don't care, and those that do are very scattered.

It's still an interesting motive for interstellar warfare, though.

Because the ones that achieve rocketry are the only ones we really care about, when it comes to writing these kinds of stories and scenarios. And if a species develops even a passing familiarity with chemistry, it probably wouldn't be all that long until they discover that mixing nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur in a certain way has . . . interesting results. And if one has the sort of low opinion of one's neighbors that comes from being part of a species which has evolved through rigorous natural selection, then the sorts of potential applications one can dream up for black powder become immediately obvious. And given the relative abundance of the basic ingredients, and the relatively forgiving recipe, the advance which black powder represents, occurs well before you have the physics or math grasp to understand how to use it beyond "Aim the pointy-end at enemy, light fuse, and run like hell." Rocketry's pretty easy, when compared to something like . . . say the materials science needed to build space elevators. The physics are simple, and the applications fairly obvious. There isn't a reason a species shouldn't develop rocketry, unless they never progress beyond bows and spears.

[Darth Smiley]

Agreed.

One though has occurred to me - so far we have been assuming, more or less, that the combatants are alien (to each other). What if they are same species? That, I think, makes more conventional motives more plausible.

In addition, what if the combatants' populations, or at least sizable chunks of them, are located off planet ( this would also need to include industrial capacity, as well as a source of food) ? This makes long range annihilation much more difficult for a potential belligerent. If destroying an enemy's planet does not necessarily destroy their ability to hit back, then it becomes much more likely that wars begin to go from ' we MUST hit first' to 'deterrence' to 'fight-able, and possibly win-able'. The idea of larger populations in space allows for competition for space-based resources to be much fiercer, although what those resources might be eludes me.

[frogcurry]

* Help!
* Buy!
* Convert!
* Vacate!
* Negotiate!
* Work!
* Discuss!

Most of them can become motives for interstellar combat if you add the clause "...or DIE!"

"Discuss or die"? What, are we getting invading by Debaters of Doom next? Well, they'd probably still be tougher than the Signs aliens...

A possible reason for alien conflict would be a desire for knowledge, i.e. an alien civilisation has some mega-secret or idea which we want, lets attack them since we can't get it by other means (maybe they are compulsive secretives, or we can't communicate, etc). Or they might have some really good TV programs on DVD only.

Effectively I think I'm suggesting that there might be unique or limited assets beyond basic matter/ energy which a civilisation might create, which due to their nature are not capable of being acquired anywhere as they need to be made by people - and which might not be capable or desirable to be shared. These might well be worth seeking to acquire by forceful means.

[Warsie]

I don't think anyone mentioned pure hatred towards the other side; as seen in Gundam Seed and Seed Destiny.

Or ideological differences (I think someone did mention that); wars of independence or rebellion.

[Guardsman Bass]

Back to motive-

The Killing Star has an interesting hypothesis, but I think even that is too anthropocentric. Why necessarily would most civilization's technological development lead to rocketry at all? There are plenty of imaginable pathways for humanity that could have skipped rocketry in its current forms, or trapped us in technological stagnation. I think it's far more likely that whatever civilizations exist in the universe, most of them probably do not reach rocketry and don't care, and those that do are very scattered.

It's still an interesting motive for interstellar warfare, though.

Because the ones that achieve rocketry are the only ones we really care about, when it comes to writing these kinds of stories and scenarios. And if a species develops even a passing familiarity with chemistry, it probably wouldn't be all that long until they discover that mixing nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur in a certain way has . . . interesting results. And if one has the sort of low opinion of one's neighbors that comes from being part of a species which has evolved through rigorous natural selection, then the sorts of potential applications one can dream up for black powder become immediately obvious. And given the relative abundance of the basic ingredients, and the relatively forgiving recipe, the advance which black powder represents, occurs well before you have the physics or math grasp to understand how to use it beyond "Aim the pointy-end at enemy, light fuse, and run like hell." Rocketry's pretty easy, when compared to something like . . . say the materials science needed to build space elevators. The physics are simple, and the applications fairly obvious. There isn't a reason a species shouldn't develop rocketry, unless they never progress beyond bows and spears.

I still don't think it's that straight forward. The Chinese figured out rocketry with gunpowder, but it took the Europeans considerably longer to make that connection and actually make good use of it, never mind using it to launch spacecraft. And that's even assuming a species that has rocketry, develops a lasting interest in large scale outer space habitation. Hell, we have problems with that today, hence why I added the "don't care" aspect. We even have examples of societies that, when given the chance, rejected gunpowder and rocketry until they were forced to use it, like the 16th century Japanese.

And, of course, that's assuming your species has the biological capability to use it. If you are a race of intelligent squids on an airless world living under an Icy, Europa style crust, you'd have a hard time coming up with fire, never mind rocketry.

In any case, my point wasn't that there would be no rocketry; it's just that I think they would be much farther spaced out, unless the universe is drowning in intelligent life. Think of how much difference in Killing Star it would have made if the aliens had been 500 light years away, or 5000, instead of 40-50. At that point, the fact that you can detect the gamma rays coming off of an anti-matter drive from that distance is much less useful, since it takes you a millenium to send a response.

[Adrian Laguna]

We even have examples of societies that, when given the chance, rejected gunpowder and rocketry until they were forced to use it, like the 16th century Japanese.

The Japanese rejected gunpowder and all things foreign as part of the isolationist policy adopted by the Shogunate after the end of the Sengoko Jidai. Prior to that, the Japanese had taken to firearms like fish to water. In the Battle of Nagashino in 1575, Oda Nobunaga deployed 1000-1500 arquebusiers out of a force numbering 38,000 men. Not only that, but he had them employ volley fire: The arquebusiers were arranged three lines deep, the first line would fire, duck and reload to let the second line fire, which would duck and reload letting the third line fire, then the first line would stand-up restart the sequence.

[Guardsman Bass]

We even have examples of societies that, when given the chance, rejected gunpowder and rocketry until they were forced to use it, like the 16th century Japanese.

The Japanese rejected gunpowder and all things foreign as part of the isolationist policy adopted by the Shogunate after the end of the Sengoko Jidai. Prior to that, the Japanese had taken to firearms like fish to water. In the Battle of Nagashino in 1575, Oda Nobunaga deployed 1000-1500 arquebusiers out of a force numbering 38,000 men. Not only that, but he had them employ volley fire: The arquebusiers were arranged three lines deep, the first line would fire, duck and reload to let the second line fire, which would duck and reload letting the third line fire, then the first line would stand-up restart the sequence.

I know. But the example still stands of a society whose leadership rejected a technological advance, and didn't re-take until they were forced to by outside influences.

[Gil Hamilton]

Or they might have some really good TV programs on DVD only.

Hilariously, in my own universe, I do daydream scenarios where this happened once.

The aliens comes to Earth and land, causing a media frenzy. What could these aliens want?

<snip>

And those aliens were from Omicron Persei 8.

Lurrr: "Why does not Ross, the largest of the Friends, not eat the other five?"
Indenda: "Perhaps they are saving that for sweeps."
Guard: "You highness, the Earth vessel has brought a peace offering from their weak and fearful government."
Lurrr: "Very well, send them in. This was a Joey heavy episode anyway..."