What Hard SF Universe Could Beat the Federation?

[Ryan Thunder]

Wait, what? Since when does the Federation use Warp missiles?

[Starglider]

Wait, what? Since when does the Federation use Warp missiles?

Load a couple of GCS antimatter pods onto a runabout on autopilot, how hard can it be? The Cardassian version had to have speed and defensive weaponary to avoid being intercepted. These ones won't since the hard-sci-fi civ will have no way of detecting it, never mind intercepting it.

[Ford Prefect]

Wait, what? Since when does the Federation use Warp missiles?

It would be so hard for the Federation to jerry-rig one together, given they have decades to get it all together. I mean, it's not like the Cardassians were using some sort incredible technology to make one. It's just a bomb with a warp drive. Even the Federation can put that together.

[Nova Andromeda]

While most HSF civ's are doomed noone has really said how Trek could overcome its vulnerability to information warfare

Barrages with warp missiles in a campaign of mass destruction. You don't need to send a single starship into the enemy homesystem employing that strategy.

-It's true that Trek could doomsday the HSF civ immediately (which I mentioned previously) and I don't think there would be much that could be done, but that isn't exactly consistent with Trek standard opperating procedures. It also doesn't address the diplomatic strategy.

[Darth Wong]

-It's true that Trek could doomsday the HSF civ immediately (which I mentioned previously) and I don't think there would be much that could be done, but that isn't exactly consistent with Trek standard opperating procedures. It also doesn't address the diplomatic strategy.

Federation standard operating procedure is to let the other guy shoot first. However, there's nothing in their modus operandi about turning the other cheek afterwards, and they've been more proactive in the past. They actually initiated hostilities in the Dominion War by launching a pre-emptive strike against Dominion shipyards.

[Gullible Jones]

-While most HSF civ's are doomed noone has really said how Trek could overcome its vulnerability to information warfare (in the case of extremely advanced HSF civs that span a large number of systems) or possibility of the HSF civ making alliances and/or trade agreements with neutral or friendly Trek civs.

Good point. There is a lot of potential for havoc there.

P.S. -- Welcome to SDnet. Flame resistant suits are strongly recommended.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

[Gullible Jones]

Hmm, looks like I forgot about warp missiles. I'd say those pretty much eliminate the possibility of info war in a full-out conflict.

[Patrick Degan]

While most HSF civ's are doomed noone has really said how Trek could overcome its vulnerability to information warfare

Barrages with warp missiles in a campaign of mass destruction. You don't need to send a single starship into the enemy homesystem employing that strategy.

-It's true that Trek could doomsday the HSF civ immediately (which I mentioned previously) and I don't think there would be much that could be done, but that isn't exactly consistent with Trek standard opperating procedures. It also doesn't address the diplomatic strategy.

The diplomatic strategy would essentially be fashioned around a surrender demand after the first few barrages have been launched. I am also obliged to point out, again, that the Federation has shown it is willing to exterminate an enemy if it deems necessary, as they attempted with the Founders.

[Nova Andromeda]

Hmm, looks like I forgot about warp missiles. I'd say those pretty much eliminate the possibility of info war in a full-out conflict.

-That depends on the starting conditions of the war. Under most circumstances the Federation won't simply deicide to doomsday the HSF civ without any of it's ships even being endangered and with little to no contact before hostilities. The HSF civs that would starts hostilities against a complete unknown aren't likely to be much of a danger to Trek either. It's the highly advanced HSF civs that have super intelligences and don't make those kinds of mistakes that are a major threat. However, it's hard to imagine one of those HSF civs starting a war or even failing to attempt a cessation of hostilities while it figures out how the Trek universe works, starts contingency plans, etc.
-There is also the possibility of evacuation (at least limited evacuation) and later (decade to a century maybe?) infiltration of Trek space itself. While the HSF civ home territory can't be saved from anihilation, the HSF civ may be able to covertly infiltrate Trek space and the Federation (I think future Trek is still run by a bunch of relatively dumb apes as opposed to super intelligences?). It could then launch it's info. warfare attack after sufficient covert preparation. It could also attempt to take advantage of the rights given to sentients (even machines like data) by creating such machines/organisms from within the Federation itself. There are probably all sorts of options once the HSF civ infiltrates a Federation system. If one of these strategies is successful it could then rebuild.

[Starglider]

-That depends on the starting conditions of the war. Under most circumstances the Federation won't simply deicide to doomsday the HSF civ without any of it's ships even being endangered and with little to no contact before hostilities.

The OP specifies 'total war'. How that starts is irrelevant. Maybe the Federation will destroy military and industrial space stations first. Certainly they're more likely to go for destroying military and industrial ground targets rather than expressly trying for a planetkill - unless it looks like the only way to win.

The only logical thing to do is surrender, join the Federation, infiltrate it, steal the tech, and then finally start a new conflict a few decades down the line. A HSF with superintelligences and extremely high manufacturing capabilities stands a good chance of winning with those tactics. But that is outside the scope of this debate.

[]There is also the possibility of evacuation (at least limited evacuation)[/quote]

Chances of sublight ships evading Trek technobabble sensors for the decades required to get anywhere are very low - plus any planet within a reasonable range is likely to be either inhabited or at least under occasional surveillence by one or more Trek powers.

It could then launch it's info. warfare attack after sufficient covert preparation.

The home civ is already gone. Yes, potentially infiltrating AIs can pull of a skynet maneuver and take over the Federation that way - eventually. But the original war will be lost.

If one of these strategies is successful it could then rebuild.

I don't think that counts as a victory under the conditions of the OP; for one thing it means reverse engineering Federation computer tech to interface with it, which is ruled out even though it should be relatively straightforward.

[Nova Andromeda]

The OP specifies 'total war'. How that starts is irrelevant.

-It's very relevant since it determines how much information the HSF civ has about Trek and how many opportunities there are to capture Federation equipment. Both of those things are extremely important to the HSF civ.

The only logical thing to do is surrender, join the Federation, infiltrate it, steal the tech, and then finally start a new conflict a few decades down the line. A HSF with superintelligences and extremely high manufacturing capabilities stands a good chance of winning with those tactics. But that is outside the scope of this debate.)

-It's hard to say what options a super intelligence might come up with, but this is certainly one option I'd file under the diplomatic catagory. In fact, now is a good time to point out that the HSF civ almost certainly has the unpredictability chance since we don't have a super intelligence available for comment on this subject.
-It's also well within the OP parameters since it would constitute both survival and neutralization of the Federation threat.

There is also the possibility of evacuation (at least limited evacuation)

Chances of sublight ships evading Trek technobabble sensors for the decades required to get anywhere are very low - plus any planet within a reasonable range is likely to be either inhabited or at least under occasional surveillence by one or more Trek powers.

-Trek sensors are hardly full proof. They routinely miss all kinds of stuff, are easily rendered useless by even minor stellar phenomena, the HSF civ ships don't have technobabble signatures, the HSF civ will probably have a huge variety of ship designs, the HSF civ could have major rainy day assets spread throughout space already as a contingency against major stellar events, and space is very very very big.

It could then launch it's info. warfare attack after sufficient covert preparation.

The home civ is already gone. Yes, potentially infiltrating AIs can pull of a skynet maneuver and take over the Federation that way - eventually. But the original war will be lost.

-The home assets might be gone, but a HSF civ isn't defined by its asset count any more than a bacterium species is defined by its total cell count. The war isn't necessarily over until one side is permenantly neutralized. The goal of the Federation is to eterminate the HSF civ which will require nearly entire erradication or developement of super intelligences (and the resulting benefits) by the Federation before it's subverted by the HSF civ.

If one of these strategies is successful it could then rebuild.

I don't think that counts as a victory under the conditions of the OP; for one thing it means reverse engineering Federation computer tech to interface with it, which is ruled out even though it should be relatively straightforward.

-See above.

[Darth Wong]

Oh great, now we have to deal with vague wanking about "super intelligence". As I said earlier, every fucking Trektard debate tactic under the Sun is being brought out in favour of this HSF civ now: reverse engineering, total enemy passivity, and now ... the ingenuity god! It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

[Peptuck]

Oh great, now we have to deal with vague wanking about "super intelligence". As I said earlier, every fucking Trektard debate tactic under the Sun is being brought out in favour of this HSF civ now: reverse engineering, total enemy passivity, and now ... the ingenuity god! It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Its like the Star Wars vs Star Trek debate, in microcosm, except reversed so that its Trek winning over the HSF universe.

Nearly every single critical advantage that favors Wars over Trek in the SWvsST debate favors STvsHSF in this debate.

[Sea Skimmer]

How is this on page five? The thread premise is like pitting some 1920 British biplanes against tribesman with spears (something which happened more the once) or the battleship Yamato at sea in broad daylight against a car bomb on a bright orange barge. As it is we could on paper build nuclear warhead armed space warships that would be able to attack modern earth with near impunity. I don’t see why certain people can have such a hard time accepting that given impossible sci fi technology you could do the same thing against someone totally grounded in reality.

I’m about the last one to prefer sci tech over hard stuff, and if you gave the hard sci fi civilization just warp drive it would be way different, but that isn’t the thread. Deal with it, the Federation could win with just one well handled ship using the Picard maneuver over and over again.

[Imperial Overlord]

Oh great, now we have to deal with vague wanking about "super intelligence". As I said earlier, every fucking Trektard debate tactic under the Sun is being brought out in favour of this HSF civ now: reverse engineering, total enemy passivity, and now ... the ingenuity god! It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

It's a really good example of how people get attached to "their team" and how much they don't want the "enemy" to win. Even on this board, the same tactics and excuses are pulled out.

[NecronLord]

Wait, what? Since when does the Federation use Warp missiles?

Since it's a canonical tactic thought up by ex-federation citizens and demonstrated to be feisable by the cardassians, and the UFP have been given thousands of years to think about what they want to do.

Never mind that the time limits on this are so generous that they could even re-develop the genesis device and start firing Warp Genesis Torpedos.

[Ryan Thunder]

Wait, what? Since when does the Federation use Warp missiles?

Since it's a canonical tactic thought up by ex-federation citizens and demonstrated to be feisable by the cardassians, and the UFP have been given thousands of years to think about what they want to do.

Never mind that the time limits on this are so generous that they could even re-develop the genesis device and start firing Warp Genesis Torpedos.

Alright alright, my bad.

The original question seems to have been answered rather adequately, but I have on of my own; What happens if the HSF civs are given some form of FTL drive?

[Darth Wong]

The original question seems to have been answered rather adequately, but I have on of my own; What happens if the HSF civs are given some form of FTL drive?

Then they're no longer hard sci-fi civs.

[Starglider]

-It's very relevant since it determines how much information the HSF civ has about Trek and how many opportunities there are to capture Federation equipment. Both of those things are extremely important to the HSF civ.

The relevant point is not how much the HSF civ knows about the UFP, it's whether the UFP knows that the HSF has genuinely dangerous computing and industrial capabilities (assuming of course that this is one of the most impressive HSF civs, not a typical one). If the UFP knows how dangerous the enemy is, they will kill it without messing about. If they don't, there is scope for fake surrenders and infilitration - but this is still strictly limited by the OP which bans reverse engineering etc. Any success via this route won't be within the scope of the original conflict.

-It's hard to say what options a super intelligence might come up with,

DO NOT try to bullshit me with 'superintelligence = get out of jail free card'. I have spent the last four years working on general AI research, specifically self-enhancing systems, and working with people doing theoretical studies of the real dangers of superintelligence.

Intelligence allows you to manipulate the free variables in a system to achieve particular goals. Superintelligence is just much, much better at this. Imagine the UFP versus the Klingons, but the Klingons have Culture minds on their side. It's equivalent to a chess novice versus a chess grand master - the grand master will win every time from a fair start, and will still be able to win reliably at quite a severe handicap. Superintelligence is quite literally an 'ingenuity god' in the right circumstances. It's true that most people don't understand this; they either wrongly write off the argument with 'if you can't explain what it will do you can't invoke it' or go too far the other way (the 'superintelligence is actually magic' fallacy as demonstrated by most of the Orion's Arm crowd).

The are not 'the right circumstances'. Imagine this HSF civ vs a Federation aware of the danger they pose. This is equivalent to a chess novice equipped with an M-16 versus a chess grand master who is standing in an open field 50 metres away, armed with a club and has his shoelaces tied together. Can you see what is going to happen here?

-Trek sensors are hardly full proof. They routinely miss all kinds of stuff,

Not objects in space when the Federation is conducting an intensive sweep for escaping ships - over a relatively small volume.

the HSF civ could have major rainy day assets spread throughout space already as a contingency against major stellar events,

Oh so now it's 'lets see if we can design any vaguely plausible HSF civ that would stand a chance against the UFP'.

and space is very very very big.

The volumes of space the HSF civ can traverse within the weeks to months it will take to finnish this war are minute compared to the volumes of space the UFP is used to traversing and defending on a daily basis.

[Beowulf]

The original question seems to have been answered rather adequately, but I have on of my own; What happens if the HSF civs are given some form of FTL drive?

Then they're no longer hard sci-fi civs.

Well... it's possible that FTL doesn't break relativity, so long as we accept that it breaks causality. In other words, we can go back in time. This probably has fairly nasty repercussions. So far, the existence of closed time-like curves has not been disproven.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What's your science education? Causality is an inherent rational assumption about the universe; science is philosophically itself not rigorous if effects may precede causes. Its an intrinsic premise to science; the universe quite literally makes no sense if there is no causality.

For this reason, and the highly accurate nature of relativity, it is almost certain that faster-than-light information transmission is completely impossible.

[Ryan Thunder]

The original question seems to have been answered rather adequately, but I have on of my own; What happens if the HSF civs are given some form of FTL drive?

Then they're no longer hard sci-fi civs.

Well, no shit.

What difference would it make in terms of the outcome of the conflict? Forget how the drive works, simply assume they have something roughly equivalent to Warp.

[Starglider]

What difference would it make in terms of the outcome of the conflict? Forget how the drive works, simply assume they have something roughly equivalent to Warp.

Now you're just saying 'Federation vs completely arbitrary opponent with undefined capabilities, who wins?' What an utterly pointless question.

[Ryan Thunder]

What difference would it make in terms of the outcome of the conflict? Forget how the drive works, simply assume they have something roughly equivalent to Warp.

Now you're just saying 'Federation vs completely arbitrary opponent with undefined capabilities, who wins?' What an utterly pointless question.

It would seem I overestimated your ability to think in context.

The same situation as the opening post put forward. This time around, however, the HSF civs get a FTL that's equivalent to Federation Warp drive on their ships.

What difference does it make in terms of the outcome of the conflict?

[Ryan Thunder]

Blargh... That should be FTL drive.