Your thoughts on the Gundam series

[Ford Prefect]

However even with their size, I think they can fulfill the idea of being a highly mobile unit that delivers heavy ordinance with high precision.

I actually like that, now that I think about. It fits with my preference for everything to be ... fast.

Oddly enough, 0083 really got the concept behind MS battles and 08th MS team really fucked it up by trying to copy Votoms (specifically the Kummen arc) but not really accounting for the huge difference in scale. It's like trying to turn the Gunbuster into a Solid Snake robot.

That is unusual. Isn't Stardust Memory supposed to be terrible, going by an earlier comment you made?

[VF5SS]

Well yeah. Tomino was borrowing a lot from Starship Troopers. This one passage is pretty much what I think Tomino was going for, "It isn't a tank-but a single M.I. private could take on a squadron of those things and knock them off unassisted..." and also being difficult to take out from the air. Although that doesn't work quite as well with MS being ten times the height of M.I, but then again an MS can shoot a plane pretty well. Especially if it has beam weapons. The original Gundam was a real monster when it came down to thrashing anything that wasn't a Mobile Suit.

[VF5SS]

That is unusual. Isn't Stardust Memory supposed to be terrible, going by an earlier comment you made?

Stardust Memory is terrible, but they MS combat scenes are fairly good. Stardust Memory takes the idea of Gundam-jacking to the ultimate extreme of stupidity where the new Gundam that was just armed with a ungodly powerful nuclear warhead was taken by a guy who just walked up to it, opened the cockpit, and turned it on. And that was just the first episode. Actually now that I think about it, maybe I just really liked the mock battle between the Powered GM and the Zakus. The rest of it probably doesn't stack up very well.

[Commander 598]

So, I totally imagined all those mecha operating in small teams, taking cover, hurling grenades, and having at least one person kitted out with a squad support weapon? At least that's how I'd even vaguely class them as a form of infantry giant or not.

Dude, the average Mobile Suit is eighteen meteres tall and can weigh anywhere between ten and a hundred and thirty tons. Pretty much anything they can take cover behind, a tank can as well. A Mobile Suit can not occupy ground any more successfully than a tank can. A Mobile Suit is not appropriate to use on patrol missions, because when they walk, the ground shakes. They're just a seriously weird armoured unit which is cool because at the end of the day, it can kick you in the face.

NO WAI! Also, can imagine that they might be vaguely useful for the fact that their combat radius is limited only by how prone to breakdown it is.

They were originally meant to be used in orbital battles, to transition from space combat to combat inside the colonies, so if you think of them as more than just a replacement for a tank...

The only ground battles in the novel are inside colonies. There was concern about Core Fighters being very useful in colonies since a giant enclosed cylinder with varying levels of gravity isn't all that conducive to fighters. We don't really know, they were getting turned into shrapnel by Zakus stomping around on the ground before they could ever do anything.

That is unusual. Isn't Stardust Memory supposed to be terrible, going by an earlier comment you made?

The protagonist pilot and his girlfriend are the primary reason why people might list it as bad. You watch it for giant robot action, nothing else.

[Ford Prefect]

Well yeah. Tomino was borrowing a lot from Starship Troopers. This one passage is pretty much what I think Tomino was going for, "It isn't a tank-but a single M.I. private could take on a squadron of those things and knock them off unassisted..." and also being difficult to take out from the air. Although that doesn't work quite as well with MS being ten times the height of M.I, but then again an MS can shoot a plane pretty well. Especially if it has beam weapons.

You know, the more I think about, the weirder it is for Mobile Suit Gundam to have basically 'invented' the Real Robot genre. Sure, The 08th MS Team did the sand in joints problem before Gasaraki, and they're not exactly treated like robot heroes, but then again, they are enormous. I think Mobile Suits are among the largest 'real' robots around. The only one I can think of with similarily large mecha is Armored Core

In any case, being a Real Robot series is more about attitude compared to your actual plausibility

The original Gundam was a real monster when it came down to thrashing anything that wasn't a Mobile Suit.

The original is the best.

[VF5SS]

You know, the more I think about, the weirder it is for Mobile Suit Gundam to have basically 'invented' the Real Robot genre. Sure, The 08th MS Team did the sand in joints problem before Gasaraki, and they're not exactly treated like robot heroes, but then again, they are enormous. I think Mobile Suits are among the largest 'real' robots around. The only one I can think of with similarily large mecha is Armored Core

Heavy Metals from L-Gaim are mostly in the 18-22 meter range. Then again, they're like the kid gloves versions of what Mamoru Nagano would eventually do with robots around the same size in Five Star Stories with their trillions of horsepower and super buster weaponry. Also the Metal Armors from Dragonar are the same size. Then again, those are both Sunrise shows and one of them had Tomino as a director. Sometimes the merchandise is really important to the size of the robot. I've heard of sketches for Southern Cross having rough calculations for how big the robot will be in various model scales (1/100, 1/144, 1/48, etc) if they made the robot a certain size in the show. Compared to some later shows, Real Robots ran the gamut of sizes. SPTs from Layzner are in the 9-10 meter range. Valkyries from Macross get a pass for being airplanes as well as robots and with the exception of the Koenig Monster, aren't that huge. Combat Armors from Dougram were also in the 9-10 meter range. Combat in Dougram is pretty interesting. Here's a clip. There's a lot of hopping and heavy punching.

In any case, being a Real Robot series is more about attitude compared to your actual plausibility

The same can be said of most sci-fi. I definitely like Japan's idea of a real robot over the closest western counterpart which is Battletech. Battletech's attempts at "realism" are just plain bad.

[Ford Prefect]

Heavy Metals from L-Gaim are mostly in the 18-22 meter range. Then again, they're like the kid gloves versions of what Mamoru Nagano would eventually do with robots around the same size in Five Star Stories with their trillions of horsepower and super buster weaponry. Also the Metal Armors from Dragonar are the same size. Then again, those are both Sunrise shows and one of them had Tomino as a director. Sometimes the merchandise is really important to the size of the robot. I've heard of sketches for Southern Cross having rough calculations for how big the robot will be in various model scales (1/100, 1/144, 1/48, etc) if they made the robot a certain size in the show. Compared to some later shows, Real Robots ran the gamut of sizes. SPTs from Layzner are in the 9-10 meter range. Valkyries from Macross get a pass for being airplanes as well as robots and with the exception of the Koenig Monster, aren't that huge.

Do you know of any series where the mecha in general are significantly larger than roughly twenty metres? Obviously there's stuff like the Psycho Gundam or the Behemoth from Full Metal Panic, but they're usually unusually massive exceptions.

Combat Armors from Dougram were also in the 9-10 meter range. Combat in Dougram is pretty interesting. Here's a clip. There's a lot of hopping and heavy punching.

I've always had something of an interest in Dougram, ever since I read this article on the history of giant robots in the second issue (of two) of Gaijin magazine, and I thought the tiny picture of the Dougram was great.

Man, back in the day everyone had a headband.

The same can be said of most sci-fi. I definitely like Japan's idea of a real robot over the closest western counterpart which is Battletech. Battletech's attempts at "realism" are just plain bad.

You know how we don't like to have Robotech brought up in Macross threads? Suffice to say, don't be bringing up Battletech in this here Gundam thread.

[Ohma]

Well let's see, I'm quite partial to the OYW stuff so my choice would basically be sort of a re-telling of that.

Changes I can think of off the top of my head:

-MSs are scaled down, they become fancified, bigass suits of power armor, rather than the archetypal 'real robot' common in the show. (granted, that sort of totally shits all over one of the rules in this thread, but I think it would work) MS pilots/MS battles still tend to be the focus of the series, but they are shown to be only one aspect of the overall conflict.

-More spaceship battles! If I remember correctly, Gundam series tend to have a problem where they have a bunch of spaceships that never really do anything (or no spaceships at all which end up being kind of weird, like Wing); with mobile suits altered to *not* be the be all end all of combat weaponry, there is now room for spacecraft to fight each other, even if it is in the background while the brave squad of commando MS pilots fights to destroy the enemy orbital supply base.

-I'd try to keep things *looking* hand drawn. I'd be fine with cg when it was blended into the show well enough, but I'd prefer that the show looked more like this than this. (granted, Macross F isn't trying to be particularly serious, but still, other shows that have had more of a pretense to seriousness have used a similar animation style, and the whole sense I get of the animators just thinking "ooh, wouldn't it be cool if we did this?!" and nothing else just rubs me the wrong way)

-Probably have the show as a 13-26 episode OAV. Each episode would more or less be a short story following one of several groups of people involved in the war. (e.g. the group of colony dwellers forced from their homes, the ace MS pilots who keep ending up at the same battle, the lovably inept group of cadets who narrowly survive each of the big battles)

-Background is pretty similar to the original UC stuff (Zeon vs. EF ect.), but with the scope expanded a bit (Mars, the belt and Jupiter are more directly involved, in fact, I think Mars or the belt would be a better location for Zeon's seat of power during the war).

[Darth Yoshi]

I'm partial to a G Gundam sequel/side-story/what-have-you, myself. Go more in-depth on how the Gundam Fight affects society or whatnot. Set it between two tournaments, and have the protagonists try to stop an anarchist group from destabilizing the Earth sphere.

[Ford Prefect]

-MSs are scaled down, they become fancified, bigass suits of power armor, rather than the archetypal 'real robot' common in the show. (granted, that sort of totally shits all over one of the rules in this thread, but I think it would work) MS pilots/MS battles still tend to be the focus of the series, but they are shown to be only one aspect of the overall conflict.

This is probably pushing it somewhat. Mind you, Full Metal Panic! upscales the Arm Slaves in the anime. They're something like six meters tall in the novels, but much closer to VF battroids or Mobile Suits in the anime. I think one of the Code Geass mangas considerably recales the Knightmare Frame, and in both these cases it's more or less acceptable, so we'll leave this pass. It would also be close to the 'ultimate fighting spacesuit' idea which VF5SS has spoken of.

-More spaceship battles!

I can actually get behind this. I wouldn't mind seeing some pitched spacecraft battles, and I certainly don't mind a 'combined arms' approach to space combat, like the first and last big battles of Gunbuster.

-I'd try to keep things *looking* hand drawn. I'd be fine with cg when it was blended into the show well enough, but I'd prefer that the show looked more like this than this. (granted, Macross F isn't trying to be particularly serious, but still, other shows that have had more of a pretense to seriousness have used a similar animation style, and the whole sense I get of the animators just thinking "ooh, wouldn't it be cool if we did this?!" and nothing else just rubs me the wrong way)

While I prefer traditional animation over CGI, which is part of the reason why Eureka 7 or Macross Plus is totally awesome. Macross Frontier has pretty excellent CGI mind you.

I'm partial to a G Gundam sequel/side-story/what-have-you, myself. Go more in-depth on how the Gundam Fight affects society or whatnot. Set it between two tournaments, and have the protagonists try to stop an anarchist group from destabilizing the Earth sphere.

I'm pretty partial in general to G Gundam. Personally, I'd like see whether or not the nations of the Future Century really are flanderised versions of their earlier selves.

[Commander 598]

I think one of the Code Geass mangas considerably recales the Knightmare Frame, and in both these cases it's more or less acceptable, so we'll leave this pass.

It's not like they were particularly large to begin with for piloted robots...

[Ford Prefect]

And I'm fairly sure they made them smaller, no less, but I'm not entirely sure.

[Ohma]

This is probably pushing it somewhat. Mind you, Full Metal Panic! upscales the Arm Slaves in the anime. They're something like six meters tall in the novels, but much closer to VF battroids or Mobile Suits in the anime. I think one of the Code Geass mangas considerably recales the Knightmare Frame, and in both these cases it's more or less acceptable, so we'll leave this pass. It would also be close to the 'ultimate fighting spacesuit' idea which VF5SS has spoken of.

Oh yeah, totally. I'm not even really saying that they'd be person sized, just scaled down enough so that they aren't gigantiranomous, and maybe just enough for it to not stretch SOD as much for them to be able to enter buildings/stations/anything really. 6-10 meters would probably be a good range for any of the MSs not specifically designed to be easier to use in cramped environments. (with a few-mostly crazy Ratte-esque prototypes-that are in the range of the original series)

I can actually get behind this. I wouldn't mind seeing some pitched spacecraft battles, and I certainly don't mind a 'combined arms' approach to space combat, like the first and last big battles of Gunbuster.

Yeah, really if you have robots that are weapons which are useful in space, and they're piloted by one person, treat them the same way you'd treat space fighters, just with cool looking robots rather than cool looking space...plane-like things.

While I prefer traditional animation over CGI, which is part of the reason why Eureka 7 or Macross Plus is totally awesome. Macross Frontier has pretty excellent CGI mind you.

Oh I'll concede that Macross F has good CG, I just can't get into the show...maybe I'm too picky? (you non early eighties giant robot cartoons, with your seegeeai, and your not big green turd looking, giant alien space ships, and your, your, modern pop music...instead of eighties pop music...)

Also: Is Eureka 7 supposed to be serious? Because it has giant robots on flying surfboards, which, if it isn't serious makes me think it's awesome, and if it is serious makes me confused.

OOH OOH ALSO: Female and male members of both sides' militaries will wear the same uniform (adjusted slightly). None of this purplish-pink miniskirt and partial vest shit...at least not if you're under the pretense that your in a srs show...

[Ford Prefect]

(with a few-mostly crazy Ratte-esque prototypes-that are in the range of the original series)

That is totally Zeonic. 'Behold the Zaku! With a Mobile Suit of eighteen meters in height, we will become undefeatable!' 'You're mad!', which would actually be fairly humourous.

Also: Is Eureka 7 supposed to be serious? Because it has giant robots on flying surfboards, which, if it isn't serious makes me think it's awesome, and if it is serious makes me confused.

Eureka 7 is pretty lighthearted to begin with, but it's got dark elements among the awesome Trance soundtrack, totally crazy but still very cool mechanical designs and the gorgeous Itano Circus that goes on. It's a very much (very much) character driven story. Mood whiplash occurs around episode 13, but I very much enjoyed it.

OOH OOH ALSO: Female and male members of both sides' militaries will wear the same uniform (adjusted slightly). None of this purplish-pink miniskirt and partial vest shit...at least not if you're under the pretense that your in a srs show...

Okay, now I can't get behind that. You'd keep the latex spacesuits, yeah?

[Ohma]

That is totally Zeonic. 'Behold the Zaku! With a Mobile Suit of eighteen meters in height, we will become undefeatable!' 'You're mad!', which would actually be fairly humourous.

Exactly what I was thinking, additionally maybe a few Macross Plus like episodes involving super crazy designs (like the Zeong, but like, less functional) getting tested either with sexy-err-wacky results on the testing range or out in 'accidental' real world combat.

OH and DOMS!! Because giant robots with NUCLEAR jet bell bottoms are AWESOME!

Okay, now I can't get behind that. You'd keep the latex spacesuits, yeah?

Bah, philistine you just can't see the beauty in well designed dress uniforms. But why would I do away with the form fitting space suits? Where else am I supposed to show off the magnificent package that the bishie main character has?

[Ohma]

Oh, wait, I forgot the shower scene, and the one where they're at the beach, and where he's riding a bike...wait, what am I writing again?

[Ford Prefect]

Exactly what I was thinking, additionally maybe a few Macross Plus like episodes involving super crazy designs (like the Zeong, but like, less functional) getting tested either with sexy-err-wacky results on the testing range or out in 'accidental' real world combat.

As I understand it though, this is basically what MS IGLOO is about: rolling prototype after prototype on to the field in an attempt to get some victories. This is slightly different, but I can see similarities (though I've never seen IGLOO, which is one funny name).

Bah, philistine you just can't see the beauty in well designed dress uniforms.

I can see the beauty in a really short skirt and thigh-highs. Yes.

But why would I do away with the form fitting space suits? Where else am I supposed to show off the magnificent package that the bishie main character has?

To be serious for a moment in regards to pilot suits, I've been thinking about them in relation to my abortion of an idea. In G Gundam, the Mobile Suits are control through the movement of your body, and I though about integrating that into more standard control schemes. The result is suits which can pick up on muscle movements and translate that into moving the MS (because the controls need to be more complex, obviously).

A fairly simple example would be moving the head, but in combination with joysticks, triggers, pedals and trackballs, it would all up to the full control experience.

[Commander 598]

The control systems in "normal" Gundam can best be described as point and shoot in their stated simplicity. Certainly it gets deeper and more complex with thruster settings and all, but to just stomp around and blow things up on the ground basically requires two sticks, two pedals, and a lot of automation.

[Vendetta]

In any case, being a Real Robot series is more about attitude compared to your actual plausibility

The easiest way to tell the difference is that in a Real Robot show the laws of physics have to shout to make themselves heard, and in a Super Robot show they're sobbing quietly in the corner.

[Ford Prefect]

The control systems in "normal" Gundam can best be described as point and shoot in their stated simplicity. Certainly it gets deeper and more complex with thruster settings and all, but to just stomp around and blow things up on the ground basically requires two sticks, two pedals, and a lot of automation.

This doesn't hold up the moment that Mobile Suit does anything more complex that walk around and shoot something, like engage in close-combat. I have seen a Gundam pull off a damaged forearm so it could be used like a club. It's kind of like when Isamu Dyson pulls off one of his glowy punches in Macross Plus by wiggling the stick around a bit.

[Shadowtraveler]

I think what Gundam really needs is less Shinn and more Lockon, if you get my meaning.

[VF5SS]

It's kind of like when Isamu Dyson pulls off one of his glowy punches in Macross Plus by wiggling the stick around a bit. :)

At least that makes sense in terms of Macross. The sticks are supposed to double as manual arm controls. Up until Char's Counterattack and a lot of the AU designs, most Gundam cockpit control schemes were way too sparse. They really didn't need to stick with the twin throttle style and it made even less sense when you got to the Zeta Gundam and the somehow a machine that flies like an airplane half the time is controlled by two identical throttle bars. Later stuff like Arm Rackers and the twin joystick designs make more sense. Probably the weirdest disconnect between what the controls do and what we see on screen was in 08th MS team where one of the guerrilla guys is in Shiro's Gundam and he pulls one throttle which makes the head turn.

[Vehrec]

I've given it some thought, and as un-likely to fly past executive producers as it may be, I think a Corperate villian might be a nice place to start. Much of the Solar System is colonized, and the distributed nature of it makes decisive victory difficult if not impossible in one series, but I'd like to give it a whirl. The major power block will the the Corperate Partition, a kind of gentlemen's club where a very few CEOs portion up the entire solar ecconomy like a pie to various companies. Governments exist mainly to provide services that generally aren't profitable.

Mercury and venus are majorly underdeveloped, and might not appear at all. Earth is surrounded by colonies, from low orbit all the way out to the Legrange points. It's also a misserable hellhole unless you're a member of the top 10% of the population of the planet. The colonies aren't the only ones being repressed, and workers rights are very much last century. Colonies are a bit smaller and thin-skinned due to being built on the cheep-for the most part colonials live in fear of a piece of space junk punching a hole in their can and sucking the people out. The military corperations, the ones responsible for the first Mobile Suits as novelty units, also make sure that colonies know they can blow the ends out if the people become more trouble than they are worth by causing a general insurection. Mars is a failed terraforming experiment, stopped by lack of funds with only a few thousand die-hard technicians and scientists refusing to abandon the project, even as it crubmles around them. The Asteroid belt is where the action starts, because the Free Miner and Prospector Cooperative isn't organized like the other corperations, and sides with its people when the other corperations start trying to undercut their way of life. Belt colonies are much more durrable with some being built into asteroids. Jupiter and Saturn are as far from Sol as sane men and women venture, but there is a lonely outpost all the way out at Pluto, and some rich eccentric executive launched a Generation Ship to Alpha Centauri over 60 years before.

Warships start as non-existant, become more and more common. Fusion power is done via tokomaks or pulsed laser-ignition, the later being common in MSes and ship engines. AI is not uncommon, but is often restricted to major colonies and ships. They are also nearly human in their emotions and responsies, but are hard-coded in other parts of their minds. The Gundam is a custom MS built by a Military Corperation officer who then is killed in a boarding action against a Belt colony. It gets upgraded, but by the end of the series will only be equal to a mook-suit. The pilot's experience will be the only major factor keeping it ahead of the curve by then. It's not as good as dedicated platforms in any environment-it's an assault unit and the tip of the spear to allow battles to happen in any environment. Its a specilist and a jack of all trades at the same time.

Scenes that need to happen:
-Tank battle on Mars.
-Lunar colonies and Earth trading blows with Mass drivers, with predictable results.
-Killing off half the main cast by the pen-ultimate episode. Including the best character.
-AI operated units rebel against their masters and turn the tide of the war.

[DPDarkPrimus]

-Killing off half the main cast by the pen-ultimate episode. Including the best character.

Gee, only half the main cast? And you'll wait until the penultimate epsiode?

You've got a ways to go before you're called the new "Kill Em All Tomino".

[Commander 598]

That reminds me, what would SEED have been like if Kira had actually died where he presumably should have?