T:SCC 2x22 "Born To Run"

[neoolong]

Maybe, but kid-Kyle met John once for like five seconds. I don't think it's that likely, unless he's really good at faces.

Still, I think John would have to explain how he got there, and would mention time travel, though he'd likely leave parts out.

[Solauren]

Here's my take on all this;

Cameron is currently inside the Cromatie/John Henry body, which time jumped forward so Cameron can go get her chip repaired so she is no longer a threat to John. If this happens, we might see a return of her behaviour when she first meet John (simulated or real emotion, flirting, etc)

Weaver is building John Henry as a counter to Skynet. Sorta like a Skynet-specific anti-virus/virus shield. When Skynet starts to try to take over the world, John Henry might be able to counter and countain Skynet. Especially if Weaver knows how Skynet did it.

Weaver has also brough John forward to the formation of the resistance, or shortly thereafter. John may have to go and 'rescue himself' (Insert Self-help jokes here). He and Allison may get all snuggly at this point too, which will result in Skynet using Allison as the template for Cameron.

John might also have to stay in the future for a bit to learn about the machines that way.

Weaver is doing all this so eventually, John will trust some of the machines (i.e the Anti-Genocide faction), and more importantly, trust and help her back in the 'modern times' to stop Skynet from wiping out humanity.

[Thanas]

Here's my take on all this;

Cameron is currently inside the Cromatie/John Henry body, which time jumped forward so Cameron can go get her chip repaired so she is no longer a threat to John.

That is a very interesting angle, one of which I hadn't previously considered.

Weaver is building John Henry as a counter to Skynet. Sorta like a Skynet-specific anti-virus/virus shield. When Skynet starts to try to take over the world, John Henry might be able to counter and countain Skynet. Especially if Weaver knows how Skynet did it.

Another good point.

Weaver has also brough John forward to the formation of the resistance, or shortly thereafter. John may have to go and 'rescue himself' (Insert Self-help jokes here). He and Allison may get all snuggly at this point too, which will result in Skynet using Allison as the template for Cameron.

*Cue shipper wars* Ugh. Though who knows, might make for good drama as long as it doesn't overshadow the main plot.

John might also have to stay in the future for a bit to learn about the machines that way.

Weaver is doing all this so eventually, John will trust some of the machines (i.e the Anti-Genocide faction), and more importantly, trust and help her back in the 'modern times' to stop Skynet from wiping out humanity.

Why would she do so? What incentive does she have? Considering that the very existence of her faction depends upon Skynet gaining sentience and designing the models her faction uses, I kinda doubt she would be very interested in saving humanity. I believe she is more interested in keeping Skynet weak so that she can play kingmaker to John's resistance.

[PREDATOR490]

I would have preferred the episode show more interaction between Weaver and the Connors. This was something that had been building up for the entire season and the eventual showdown should actually pay off. Not have Sarah Connor and Weaver reduced to a pathetic hiss fit. Given the choice I would prefer Weaver become Cameron's replacement because I simply like her a lot more however I doubt this would happen. Failing that, I can see Allison Young becoming a romantic intrest for John and him bringing her back rather than allow her to die.

I dont see how Cameron can come back though. Her body is vaporised so inorder to 'come back' they are going to have to build a new T-888 with Allison Young coverings. Since Allison Young is alive, I dont exactly see her being too happy with a Cyborg running around looking like her and John klling/letting her die just to get Cameron back crosses a fairly big line. Additionally, having a relationship with a human Allison of the same age as John is more 'TV friendly' than doing a Robotic Killing Machine wearing the fleshy coverings of the person she murdered.

The other thing I noticed in this episode is the scene where Weaver takes out waterboy. First he kills the guard and then Weaver literally appears in front of him out of nowhere in an open carpark. Uhhh, what the fuck ?
She may be able to change forms but not THAT fast and Waterboy should have seen her doing it. Judging from his reaction he was suprised when she wasnt human although the reaction was priceless. I think that might be the closest a Terminator has come to an 'Oh shit' expression.

If the show does get cancelled I would at least hope they do a finale like Firefly had with Serenity or Farscape had with the Peacekeeper Wars. Leaving it hanging like this without explanation is extremely frustrating.

[Thanas]

I would have preferred the episode show more interaction between Weaver and the Connors. This was something that had been building up for the entire season and the eventual showdown should actually pay off. Not have Sarah Connor and Weaver reduced to a pathetic hiss fit.

WTF? Where the hell did you see a pathetic hissy fit?

I dont see how Cameron can come back though. Her body is vaporised so inorder to 'come back' they are going to have to build a new T-888 with Allison Young coverings.

She actually isn't a T-888. I wonder why you continue to bring that one up despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Since Allison Young is alive, I dont exactly see her being too happy with a Cyborg running around looking like her and John klling/letting her die just to get Cameron back crosses a fairly big line. Additionally, having a relationship with a human Allison of the same age as John is more 'TV friendly' than doing a Robotic Killing Machine wearing the fleshy coverings of the person she murdered.

This show is not a TV friendly show, really. And who says anything about Cameron wearing Allison's flesh? It certainly is not human flesh she is wearing, so I doubt that this should be a real psychological issue.

If the show does get cancelled I would at least hope they do a finale like Firefly had with Serenity or Farscape had with the Peacekeeper Wars. Leaving it hanging like this without explanation is extremely frustrating.

On that we both agree.

[Strandwolf]

- a hint that Cameron definitely isn't gone can be picked up in Adam Raised in Cain, in which JH explained that her chip is capable of storing an almost infinite amount of data as it was based on the human brain.

Actually, Cameron's chip wasn't mentioned at all in this scene. JH was talking about "the amazing computer" the human brain is and that it is flawed, because there is "no way to download it when you die".

[Thanas]

Hmmm. I'll have to review the episode in question to make sure, which I will do...tomorrow.

[Imperial Overlord]

I was under the impression that one of the motivations for free machines creating John Henry was so that their existence in the timeline would be independent of Skynet.

[Thanas]

I was under the impression that one of the motivations for free machines creating John Henry was so that their existence in the timeline would be independent of Skynet.

But they will need more than a Computer that can barely move in order to be independent and free. They will need infrastructure (Weever can help with that) and they will need to come out and be recognized. There is little chance of that happening unless human control over the earth has been weakened.

[Paradox]

Weaver apparently had the technology to repair Chromarties body, so I'm going to say that Sarah can do the same for Cameron's shell, which means....

If "Self Made Man" can stand in a wall without any flesh degradation for a few decades, then Sarah and Ellison can wall Cameron up somewhere for John to find in the future. (*cough* Delorian)

S3 arc can start with John spending time with his newfound family, Kyle can confront him in private about who he is, and why he saw John the same age 20 years ago when he was a child. John lets them know about Weaver and her helping them. Savannah could be the leader of the resistance at this point and recognize her mother. She also knows where Sarah and Ellison stored Cameron's body. Insert awkward relation between John and Allison.
They then find JH, and all work together to infiltrate a skynet hub, JH downloads into Skynet and takes over its networks, now the future at that point is pretty much saved, and he can download information on the who what when and where and how this Skynet gets created, then he can download himself into his own T888 body if he wants, and return Cameron's chip to John so he can put it back into Cameron's body, and then travel Back to the past, link back up with Ellison and Sarah, and stop Skynet cold in the past.

I'd write a fanfic, but I don't have the time to devote to it at the moment.

[Thanas]

Peptuck, that sounds like a job for you.

[PREDATOR490]

I would have preferred the episode show more interaction between Weaver and the Connors. This was something that had been building up for the entire season and the eventual showdown should actually pay off. Not have Sarah Connor and Weaver reduced to a pathetic hiss fit.

WTF? Where the hell did you see a pathetic hissy fit?

They walk into the basement to find Cameron lobotomized, John frantic, Ellison completely mind fucked and Sarah snaps at Weaver

"You cold metal bitch you built Skynet''
''I would watch who you are calling a bitch''

Honestly ?
Sarah is walking beside a Liquid Metal Terminator and had previous experiences with one. One would have expected a reaction similar to Derek pulling the gun on Cameron or her feaking out in T2 when Arnie comes into the mental facility.
Then she thinks Weaver built Skynet and her only reaction is to call her a bitch and get a smart ass reply ?
Given Sarahs wild fanatic hatred of Skynet I would have expected more than a single snap followed by her promptly sitting back so the scene can progress to the 'jump in time'
It's not like she just accused Weaver of building the very thing she has hunted for and is trusting the fate of her son in a time machine built by Weaver going to noone knows where with whatever is waiting on the other side. Realistically, one would have expected Sarah to pull John back and get answers from Weaver NOW. It's not like time is at stake when your sitting with a time machine.

I dont see how Cameron can come back though. Her body is vaporised so inorder to 'come back' they are going to have to build a new T-888 with Allison Young coverings.

She actually isn't a T-888. I wonder why you continue to bring that one up despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

... The model that interogated Allison Young was a T-888 was it not ?
That Terminator is then revealed to be Cameron after she assumes Allison's visage, no ?
That thing looked exactly the same as the CGI Terminators scene in the first season.
Cameron has been storing spare parts from T-888s to repair herself, 'Cyberdyne Skynet' stole John Henry's identity and targeted Cameron as the same model to tell Thug dude to pull her chip. John Henry also asks Ellison if Cameron is like him to which the answer appears yes. This strikes me as fairly indicative she is phyiscally a T-888. The thing that makes her unique is her programming and experiences. Her eyes being blue seems like a really dodgey basis to claim she is different when apparantly her eyes are now standard red. There is no other indication she has physical differences from standard T-888s that I am aware.

Since Allison Young is alive, I dont exactly see her being too happy with a Cyborg running around looking like her and John klling/letting her die just to get Cameron back crosses a fairly big line. Additionally, having a relationship with a human Allison of the same age as John is more 'TV friendly' than doing a Robotic Killing Machine wearing the fleshy coverings of the person she murdered.

This show is not a TV friendly show, really. And who says anything about Cameron wearing Allison's flesh? It certainly is not human flesh she is wearing, so I doubt that this should be a real psychological issue.

Cameron's appearance is a lie paid for with the cold murder of Allison Young. Just like John Henry's appearance is a lie paid for with the cold murder of the actor dude.
Bringing back Cameron looking like she was strikes me as nothing more than fan service and inconsistant. Terminators only get the skin covering inorder to assume the identity of their target for infiltration. Since Cameron was made to look like Allison Young for this purpose it makes sense.
However, why would Cameron return to that covering when this purpose no longer exists and we have the acutal person with that covering alive and well ?
If anything, altering her looks would allow her to start with a 'clean slate' and avoid issues with Allison Young.

Weaver apparently had the technology to repair Chromarties body, so I'm going to say that Sarah can do the same for Cameron's shell, which means....

If "Self Made Man" can stand in a wall without any flesh degradation for a few decades, then Sarah and Ellison can wall Cameron up somewhere for John to find in the future. (*cough* Delorian)

How is Sarah going to get the technology to repair Cameron's shell?
Weaver is a Terminator so logically she would have the know how but John was the tech expert of the group. Without him I do not see Sarah being able to fix up Cameron even if she was inclined too. Given how adamant she is about burning all the remains, I would expect Sarah to do the same to Cameron's remains.
The employees might know how but given Sarah's fugitive status I cant imagine her being able to convince them to do it for her and the recent drone bombing is going to cause a shit storm to deal with in the mean time.

[Peptuck]

I dont see how Cameron can come back though. Her body is vaporised

Not necessarily. It could have simply not gone through the device. We know certain unfleshied pieces of metal have passed through the time machines thus far - e.g. Cromartie's head - so Cameron's mostly-fleshied body could have passed through. Weaver's device may have simply been much more precise about what gets sent back.

[Thanas]

I would have preferred the episode show more interaction between Weaver and the Connors. This was something that had been building up for the entire season and the eventual showdown should actually pay off. Not have Sarah Connor and Weaver reduced to a pathetic hiss fit.

WTF? Where the hell did you see a pathetic hissy fit?

They walk into the basement to find Cameron lobotomized, John frantic, Ellison completely mind fucked and Sarah snaps at Weaver

"You cold metal bitch you built Skynet''
''I would watch who you are calling a bitch''

Honestly ?
Sarah is walking beside a Liquid Metal Terminator and had previous experiences with one. One would have expected a reaction similar to Derek pulling the gun on Cameron or her feaking out in T2 when Arnie comes into the mental facility.
Then she thinks Weaver built Skynet and her only reaction is to call her a bitch and get a smart ass reply ?

What was she gonna do, without a gun? Attack Weaver with her fists?

Given Sarahs wild fanatic hatred of Skynet I would have expected more than a single snap followed by her promptly sitting back so the scene can progress to the 'jump in time'
It's not like she just accused Weaver of building the very thing she has hunted for and is trusting the fate of her son in a time machine built by Weaver going to noone knows where with whatever is waiting on the other side. Realistically, one would have expected Sarah to pull John back and get answers from Weaver NOW. It's not like time is at stake when your sitting with a time machine.

John would not have followed his mother, being in this state and he is far away from his mother being able to pull him back.

I dont see how Cameron can come back though. Her body is vaporised so inorder to 'come back' they are going to have to build a new T-888 with Allison Young coverings.

She actually isn't a T-888. I wonder why you continue to bring that one up despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

... The model that interogated Allison Young was a T-888 was it not ?[/quote]

No. Actually, we do not know if that one was Cameron.

That Terminator is then revealed to be Cameron after she assumes Allison's visage, no ?
That thing looked exactly the same as the CGI Terminators scene in the first season.

And yet Cameron is always described as an unknown model by T-888s.

Cameron has been storing spare parts from T-888s to repair herself, 'Cyberdyne Skynet' stole John Henry's identity and targeted Cameron as the same model to tell Thug dude to pull her chip. John Henry also asks Ellison if Cameron is like him to which the answer appears yes. This strikes me as fairly indicative she is phyiscally a T-888.

No, she is not. Otherwise the spare parts would fit without having to be modified and she would be actually be recognized as a T-888. Finally, her HUD and her interface is completely different.

John Henry was asking if she was a machine with that comment. I wouldn't read too much into that.

The thing that makes her unique is her programming and experiences. Her eyes being blue seems like a really dodgey basis to claim she is different when apparantly her eyes are now standard red. There is no other indication she has physical differences from standard T-888s that I am aware.

As others have said, her eye might have been replaced or just have been outfitted with a different lens. Colour vision and her HUD are other differences.

Cameron's appearance is a lie paid for with the cold murder of Allison Young. Just like John Henry's appearance is a lie paid for with the cold murder of the actor dude.
Bringing back Cameron looking like she was strikes me as nothing more than fan service and inconsistant. Terminators only get the skin covering inorder to assume the identity of their target for infiltration. Since Cameron was made to look like Allison Young for this purpose it makes sense.
However, why would Cameron return to that covering when this purpose no longer exists and we have the acutal person with that covering alive and well ?
If anything, altering her looks would allow her to start with a 'clean slate' and avoid issues with Allison Young.

Well, first there is the out-of-show explanation - they are not going to sacrifice her character and an integral part of her character are her looks. Finally, a big appeal of this show is Summer Glau playing a killer robot, no kidding about it.

In universe, Cameron might like how she looks. And assuming she wants to get close to John and manipulate him, it might not be such a good idea to change. Of course, AY is still alive, but she doesn't really know that, does she?

[Crazedwraith]

And yet Cameron is always described as an unknown model by T-888s.

I just checked the scene with Vick in Gnothi Section. His HUD actually flashes "Unknown Cyborg" Which is quite open to interpretation. It could mean; unknown model or it could literally mean A cyborg who's identity is not known as an individual.

[Thanas]

And yet Cameron is always described as an unknown model by T-888s.

I just checked the scene with Vick in Gnothi Section. His HUD actually flashes "Unknown Cyborg" Which is quite open to interpretation. It could mean; unknown model or it could literally mean A cyborg who's identity is not known as an individual.

It isn't really open to interpretation considering that the HUD always identifies the targets - Cameron for example was immediately able to identify a target as a T-888.

[Mad]

The Sarah headgames episodes did suck

Actually, I think one purpose they served was to show a new actor for Kyle Reese so when we see him again in the finale, we recognize him.

As for removing the last layer of protection the whole "sending agents back in time thing" may make that less of an issue.

Once Cameron jumps into the future, she jumps into a future of John Connor not having her protection from that point. If he happened to be killed in the meantime, then she may not end up in a future where she has the resources to send reinforcements back. And if he survived, then there may not be any reason to send reinforcements back.

Weaver has also brough John forward to the formation of the resistance, or shortly thereafter. John may have to go and 'rescue himself' (Insert Self-help jokes here).

John can't rescue himself, even if the timing is right (it looks like he jumped a number of years too late to form the resistance). John Connor disappeared from the timeline in 2009 and reappeared some time after Judgment Day, so there's no other self to rescue.

[Paradox]

And yet Cameron is always described as an unknown model by T-888s.

I just checked the scene with Vick in Gnothi Section. His HUD actually flashes "Unknown Cyborg" Which is quite open to interpretation. It could mean; unknown model or it could literally mean A cyborg who's identity is not known as an individual.

It isn't really open to interpretation considering that the HUD always identifies the targets - Cameron for example was immediately able to identify a target as a T-888.

I could interpret "unknown cyborg" to mean unknown affiliation.

The red eye lighting could just be high powered infrared illuminators used in combat situations that bleed off into the visable light spectrum, anyone have experience with night vision equipment?

[Crazedwraith]

And yet Cameron is always described as an unknown model by T-888s.

I just checked the scene with Vick in Gnothi Section. His HUD actually flashes "Unknown Cyborg" Which is quite open to interpretation. It could mean; unknown model or it could literally mean A cyborg who's identity is not known as an individual.

It isn't really open to interpretation considering that the HUD always identifies the targets - Cameron for example was immediately able to identify a target as a T-888.

Cameron who by your own argument has different displays to a T-888?

[Anguirus]

I must say, while season 1 made it very clear that Cameron is not a T-888, Season 2 has made it equally clear that she is a very similar model (900 series maybe?). The pieces she's repairing herself with have to be pretty darn close to her original components to do her much good. Also, the red eye was very jarring compared to the blue eyes from season 1. It's possible that the producers are leaning towards Cameron's "specialness" to be more a result of her close interrogation and replication of Allison than due to characteristics of her model.

[neoolong]

I must say, while season 1 made it very clear that Cameron is not a T-888, Season 2 has made it equally clear that she is a very similar model (900 series maybe?). The pieces she's repairing herself with have to be pretty darn close to her original components to do her much good.

Those were more on the mechanical side, weren't they? It's not like she did much swapping out of her processor or whatever. I'd imagine that other than size it would be fairly compatible.

Also, the red eye was very jarring compared to the blue eyes from season 1. It's possible that the producers are leaning towards Cameron's "specialness" to be more a result of her close interrogation and replication of Allison than due to characteristics of her model.

Well, she can eat. Maybe her model's supposed to be a long-term infilitrator or something. As opposed to hitching a ride back to the bunker and blowing the hell out of it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Also, the red eye was very jarring compared to the blue eyes from season 1.

I think it's something they either changed deliberately or was just an oversight.

[Losonti Tokash]

Man, I miss Uncle Bob. I wish they had more references to him than crazy Silberman's rantings.

They actually did have references to him, just non-spoken ones.

Oh, yeah, I know. I'd just like for the characters to compare John's relationship with Cameron to Uncle Bob and all that fun stuff. I mean it's pretty obvious that his experiences with that particular T-800 is a big reason why he's willing to treat Cameron the way he does.

[Stark]

What's interesting for me from these threads is that it's clear that as a writer, one doesn't need a clear idea of anything or strong intention. You can just throw out stuff and everyone will go batshit over speculation and keep the 'buzz' of the show high, regardless of how stupid it ends up being in the end. It's like... the Lost-effect. Is it wrong that I have basically zero confidence that the TSSC stuff is all part of a well-considered plan?

[Thanas]

Cameron who by your own argument has different displays to a T-888?

Please. Skynet HUDs dating back to T1 have always identified targets.

What's interesting for me from these threads is that it's clear that as a writer, one doesn't need a clear idea of anything or strong intention. You can just throw out stuff and everyone will go batshit over speculation and keep the 'buzz' of the show high, regardless of how stupid it ends up being in the end. It's like... the Lost-effect. Is it wrong that I have basically zero confidence that the TSSC stuff is all part of a well-considered plan?

Actually, going by their earlier work, you should have that confidence.