Avatar Force Sub: UNSC (Halo)

[Starglider]

Also: the shuttle could've probably taken gravel with ease, seeing as it can survive re-entry.

Completely different problem. The space shuttle Columbia could take re-entry with ease, but one lump of frozen foam caused its destruction. That was a different failure mode, but it illustrates the potential delicacy of aerospace craft. Small rocks sucked into jets engines can easily shatter compressor and turbine blades, which are highly stressed when the engines are putting out maximum thrust. This is why FOD is such a big deal at airports; one misplaced wrench can wreck an engine. I'd note that the Valkyrie doesn't use its turbofan engines at high speeds; the intakes fold flush with the fuselage, and those big combined cycle engines at the back push it up to hypersonic and orbital speeds.

Then there's the matter of dropping bags of gravel into the thing while swarms of gunships are shooting at you.

They were managing to shoot arrows at fast moving small targets (the gunships) from the backs of their wyverns. Lofting clouds of debris at the shuttle engines (exact hit not required, since the engines have a wide suck-in zone) should be considerably easier.

Which is why the USNC would probably do better, since the Pelicans are A) Armored, B) Much smaller and C) Their loading bays are arranged differently.

Plus the Pelicans would not fly with the rear door open, inviting entry. In fact with the Pelican's copious surplus load capacity, you could just put the bomb in a metal casing and sling-load it with some chains. That removes the need to open the door at all. Plus of course the UNSC would likely have more powerful, compact explosives even disregarding their willingness to use nukes.

They wanted to annihilate the tree and every Na'Vi around it in an apocalyptic display of Godly power so that the Na'Vi would be too scared to ever try and fight them again (how well that would've worked is debatable, but that was the plan). So they didn't just need a bomb, they needed a huge motherfucking bomb.

Definitely should've used antimatter then. They must have portable containment units, since the antimatter to refuel the starship is made on site.

[CBG]

For the sheer shock/scare value antimatter would have done much better than a daisy cutter. Even as little as 1 gram of it makes a good substitute of an A-bomb.
About explosives - RDA could manufacture warheads for rockets and such stuff, so they actualy were able to manufacture ordinary explosives, not just weak, mining ones.
Another interesting question is, why didn't they make a mass use of incendiary munitions. In high oxygen atmosphere and dense jungle they would be insanely destructive.
And about the fortifications, they are pretty serious, heavy weapons included. With air support and ground units reinforcing them, they would be hard to break even for an army with proper artillery and air force.

[Shroom Man 777]

Just write a proper program? WWII-era dumb iron bombs are still used, and with computer assisted targeting they have 100-200m CEP in level drop. Dive bombing would make it even better. It could even be dropped from high altitude at 0 speed, ensuring good accuracy and 100% safety for the shuttle.

And bomb bays are not neccessary for using bombs.
Does F-16 have bomb bays?
Does Stuka have bomb bays?
Can they drop bombs properly?
Even Mi-24 helicopter can drop bombs.

I meant, the Venture Star and the other Scorpion and Dragon gunships did not have provisions for strategic bombing. Stukas and Mi-24 helicopters drop their bombs very close to their targets, certainly nowhere near the "high above" altitudes you are advocating.

Technical support fucked up. Why couldn't they in a very short time just weld some thin steel or aluminium plates into something at least semi aerodynamic that is trying to look like a bomb, and put these explosives inside?

How short? And how accurate would this semi-aerodynamic casing be? Do they have to test this casing with prototypes and dry runs?

The RDA simply did not have time.

Inertial navigation and the fact that trees are stationary targets makes up for the fog.
And dive bombing (=from above) gets around the flying mountain problem much better than level approach, as there were no flying mountains shown directly above the tree.

Can the Venture Star even come down on such a steep approach?

These "miners and mechanics and their scientists" were producing most of their equipment, including heavy vehicles. They can build a huge truck, including powerful engine, suspension, steering, and strudy metal frame (excluding electronics), why couldn't they build something as simple as a steel, bomb shaped container? And they needed to have some aerospace engineers to maintain all their aircraft, especially shuttles. Oh, and they were also manufacturing munitions on site.

Those were probably pre-programmed designs that their fabricators came loaded with. They certainly did not DESIGN any of those products by themselves. Repairmen =/= guys who can design new weapons systems.

There are 2 interesting differences between WW2 style carpet bombine and this:
1 - WW2 bombers over Germany were shot at, even at high altitudes.
2 - show me one WW2 bomber that is VTOL, so it can come to full stop mid air, and then drop bombs.

Show me where their bombs were pieces of crap stuck together with webbing and tape. Even when bombers weren't shot at over Germany, their accuracy was STILL shit.

Do we even know if the Venture Star can VTOL at high altitudes? I mean, Harriers and F-35s are VTOL but they certainly have limits to how high they can hover?

A ot of it's stuff was not given, they had a huge potential in their stereolithography plant that produced it, including pretty complicated stuff, like a huge, remote controlled bulldozer. This means that building something as simple as a bomb body (or even a heavy tank) on their own would be possible.

They were a mining operation. I'm sure their fabricator came with pre-programmed designs for heavy machinery.

So, why weren't they just bombing the shit out of Na'vi from high altitude till they numbers would be miserable? Throwing a critical element of forces (most of combat aircraft) into a mission that is risky, makes serious losses pretty sure, and even if it succeeds, does not guarantee preventing the attack, is not a wise move.

Because they didn't have any dedicated bombers and the only plane they had that could "bomb" was a jerry rigged civilian aircraft? Because they COULDN'T bomb the shit out of the Na'vi, because they lacked the capabilities, and the best they had was the shuttle with its half-assed daisy cutter?

Valkyrie is VTOL, which means it does not have to worry about stalls.
There was no mountain directly above the tree, so diving there would be pretty safe.

Unless it uses anti-gravity technology, its VTOL will have a limit to how high it can hover off the ground. You don't see Harriers or F-35s VTOLing until they reach the stratosphere.

How about when the Venture Star pulls up out of its dive?

Again, critical error in jungle guerilla warfare. Especially in jungle guerilla warfare on an alien planet, against not fully researched aliens.
Expect the unexpected. That should be Quattrich's motto on Pandora.

I don't think even Curtis LeMay would've expected the Vietnamese wildlife to turn against him.

They did not lose. They suffered huge losses, but they also inflicted serious losses on RDA craft (which made repelling the suprise attack by animals impossible), and above all, they have fulfilled their primary mission objective - stopping Valkyrie from dropping the explosives on their tree. RDA failed to fulfill it's primary objective - bombing the shit out of tree of souls.

They didn't inflict serious losses on the RDA craft. They got slaughtered, and they only managed to take down a handful of the RDA craft. The majority of the RDA gunships were still flying and fighting when the animal attack occurred.

Quarritch just fails to be cautious. Not being cautious in a guerilla waragainst opponent, which he does not fully know, and being sure, that he will throw everything he got (not really knowing what exactly he got at his disposal) is an error that can lead to complete defeat (and it did).

He fully knew the Na'vi, he fucking killfucked them. He didn't know Eywa, but I don't think Eywa was the "opponent" in that battle (the Na'vi didn't even think Eywa could even fight!). But, man, you might as well say that knowing is half the battle and that Quarritch would've made a lousy G.I. Joe.



Starglider:

I don't think the space captain would've given Quarritch very expensive starship fuel that they would've had to use for the years-long voyage back to Earth for, you know, genocide-bombs.

[LaCroix]

The assumption that they would be overrun by them is sound.

All they had to do was fly into the structure, and open the doors to make them suffocate. That door at the command station, which should be the most fortified position, for obvious reasons, was easily kicked open by a pissed of Quaritch. It won't stop a Na'Vi.

[Darth Wong]

About a hundred kilometers, judging from the holo-display in the command centre: the Home Tree showed up at 94 clicks IIRC, and the Na'Vi were able to reach the Tree Of Souls in less than a day (it was still the day when Jake and co. were imprisoned, they were busted out in the evening, by morning they had the mobile lab moved and set up again) on foot with their elderly, wounded and children.

Of course, we don't know how Pandora's day/night cycle looks like.

OK, so it would take at least a few days to marshall their reinforcements, assuming Earth-like day lengths.

It seems to me that Quaritch's whole justification for this operation was due to his desire to teach the Na'vi a lesson, and that he probably exaggerated the threat in order to convince everyone else to go along with his plan. They've had that base there for many years; it is virtually inconceivable that it would not have been sufficiently fortified to fend off any assault mounted by Na'vi locals.

That was probably a factor, too, since we all know Quaritch was a racist asshole. Then again, the base's total manpower was tiny. Quaritch was able to brief everyone there at the same time in that mess hall: thinking that 20 000 warriors would be able to overrun the perimeter was quite justified, IMHO, especially since they have fliers.

Yeah, but they're out of the flux area, so all of their toys should work. Computer-aided targeting, etc. If they were setting up a fortified base with minimal manpower, I'd expect them to have automated defenses of some sort. It doesn't have to be Starship Troopers, with men manning the walls at 5 pace intervals.

[Darth Wong]

The assumption that they would be overrun by them is sound.

Why? The fliers are big slow-moving targets, and any kind of auto-tracking AA gun system would annihilate them easily.

All they had to do was fly into the structure, and open the doors to make them suffocate. That door at the command station, which should be the most fortified position, for obvious reasons, was easily kicked open by a pissed of Quaritch. It won't stop a Na'Vi.

Yeah, that's a great plan, assuming the base was designed without any real thought given to defense, which seems inconceivably stupid.

[Shroom Man 777]

OK, so it would take at least a few days to marshall their reinforcements, assuming Earth-like day lengths.

Quarritch did give them a week or so before the Na'vi reached critical mass or something.

Yeah, but they're out of the flux area, so all of their toys should work. Computer-aided targeting, etc. If they were setting up a fortified base with minimal manpower, I'd expect them to have automated defenses of some sort. It doesn't have to be Starship Troopers, with men manning the walls at 5 pace intervals.

I think their total number of gunships were the ones we saw on deployed on both the attack on Home Tree and the Soul Tree, and I think they didn't have much more in the way of infantry than those guys deployed in the Soul Tree attack.

As to how the defense would've gone, Quarritch was mighty doubtful that they would've lasted long. While he might've been bullshitting to get justification for the preemptive strike that he was all hard on for, and maybe the RDA guys could've holed up indefinitely. But I think that if the Na'vi did reach critical mass and declared war, even if they didn't overwhelm the RDA in a head on attack but instead went guerrilla and only attacked the RDA forces that exited their base, that would've been a pretty shit situation. Might've put a dent on their mining operations.

Man, Quarritch was a psycho!

[LaCroix]

The assumption that they would be overrun by them is sound.

Why? The fliers are big slow-moving targets, and any kind of auto-tracking AA gun system would annihilate them easily.

If they come in mass, they would probably be able to punch through, coming in fast and low... That base was not built to defend against mass attack, since all those flyers hunt alone or in small groups. A few AA guns against Leonopterix might be installed, but I doubt it would be enough against hundreds or thousand flyers. He expected between 2000 and 20000 attackers, and most of them were flyers. And the Na'Vi had a leader who knew about the defense capabilities. Those guns would quickly get disabled.

All they had to do was fly into the structure, and open the doors to make them suffocate. That door at the command station, which should be the most fortified position, for obvious reasons, was easily kicked open by a pissed of Quaritch. It won't stop a Na'Vi.

Yeah, that's a great plan, assuming the base was designed without any real thought given to defense, which seems inconceivably stupid.

It is a Mining base. They have a big wall around it with some guns to fend of the wildlife. Some airlock doors. And an angry human could KICK open a LOCKED door in the command tower. How much more undefended can it be?

Once the Na'Vi are inside you have close quarter combat. Most defenders were untrained engineers, who probably would have run in that situation.

Of course, you could fortify that base, but there are limits. Like windows. If a vital door is that flimsily locked, I think the windows would be as vulnerable.

How much oxygen do they have and how do they gain it? They probably have huge filters - a perfect target to attack.
Would power generation be in danger of sabotage? Cutting lines? Causing damage and short circuits?

Once the walls are taken, they could open the doors and try to guide a stampede into the base.

The humans would not fare well in a siege situation.

[Darth Wong]

Modern AA guns are built to defend against helicopters and aircraft; these fliers are slow-ass giant bird things. They can be swatted from the sky very easily. Could a thousand of them overwhelm the defenses? Obviously, that depends on just how robust those defenses are. However, the people running the base would have to be idiots not to install sufficient defenses if they've known for quite a long time that the situation could become hostile, which they did. The fact is that they have low manpower but plenty of technology; plenty enough to install sufficient computer-controlled AA guns to easily swat hordes of these slow-ass bird things from the sky.

As for the strength of the base, you seem to be stuck in a medieval mindset. It's not about how strong the walls and doors are; it's about the use of accurate firepower to kill attackers. These aren't mindless insects; they will falter when they start taking heavy casualties. Again, however, I'm assuming that the base was designed with some kind of intelligence.

[Shroom Man 777]

We didn't see any emplacements though. At least, from what little we saw. I think they relied on their aircraft, infantry and mechs to do the defending. You don't see modern military bases decked out with AA guns. And these are mercenaries - not real soldiers or military guys.

Those aircraft, infantry and mechs would've been sufficient for defense since up till the military guys went psycho, I don't think the RDA guys really thought long and hard about the possibility of all out war with the Na'vi. Selfridge wasn't even committed to conflict at all. Yes, it's kinda stupid, but there seemed to be a whole lot of indecision in the management-level of the RDA (they go from "negotiate a solution, we don't want to look bad" to "they're savages, they live in a tree!" to *gapes in shock and horror at the atrocity they just committed*). Not so much with the mercenary psychos, but hey, they were psychos.

[PeZook]

You know, I have to wonder how motivated Quaritch was by politics. The people on the base were all hooah because he basically told them the Na'Vi were coming to RAR KILL THEM ALL AND EAT THEIR EYEBALLS, but how long would that last before they started to use their brains again? It's not like Selfridge was all that gung-ho with the whole thing in the first place, and when he found a brain and pair of balls, Quaritch could've just as well been told to stand the fuck down and try to salvage the whole thing.

[CBG]

I meant, the Venture Star and the other Scorpion and Dragon gunships did not have provisions for strategic bombing. Stukas and Mi-24 helicopters drop their bombs very close to their targets, certainly nowhere near the "high above" altitudes you are advocating.

But these are still altitudes hard to attain for living creatures.
About huge bombs in general, dropping them from low altitude would be at least a suicidal idea. Modern ones (at least the 7 ton one) cannot be dropped from altitudes lower than 2 km, as the aircraft could be damaged by it's explosion. In dense atmosphere of Pandora, the blast effect would have an increased range, but not knowing the load's power, the minimum altitude cannot be estimated, but it is probable that it would be even higher.
Also, considering the huge blast radious, something that could be considered miss with an ordinary bomb, with such powerful one, still counts as a hit. The effective blast radious is hundreds of meters, maybye even more.

How short? And how accurate would this semi-aerodynamic casing be? Do they have to test this casing with prototypes and dry runs?

The RDA simply did not have time.

It surely would be much better than just a bunch of cargo pallets with explosives strapped to them. And designing a simple, steel bomb casing that would have acceptable aerodynamics is
a matter of hours even today, for an engineering student. Damn it, even i could make them in Solidworks (software similar to AutoCAD), and it would not take much time.
And by the way, the same program can do aerodynamics analysis.
And this is just 21th century, not world war 2 USSR, while RDA have 22th century technology, which i suppose would be at least a bit better than 21th century one.

Can the Venture Star even come down on such a steep approach?

A Valkyrie would be more than enough.

Those were probably pre-programmed designs that their fabricators came loaded with. They certainly did not DESIGN any of those products by themselves. Repairmen =/= guys who can design new weapons systems.

Guys maintaining advanced aircraft are not simple repairmen, like a guy who fixes people's cars. They are highly qualified, and at least a part of them must have actual engineering degrees, which means they were also being taught how to design stuff.

Show me where their bombs were pieces of crap stuck together with webbing and tape. Even when bombers weren't shot at over Germany, their accuracy was STILL shit.

Do we even know if the Venture Star can VTOL at high altitudes? I mean, Harriers and F-35s are VTOL but they certainly have limits to how high they can hover?

They had no computers durning WW2. Anything they used for ballistic calculations then was pretty much crap, compared even to today's cheap, obsolete systems.

About VTOL altitudes, today's aircraft can hover at altitudes about 3,000m.
However, this is dependant on atmosphere density, humidity, composition (high oxygen of Pandora would do wonders on jet engines).
And we do not know if Valkyrie's engines were jet at all. Taking the fact that iw could have powered flight in space, it would need some other propulsion systems, as jet engines do not work in space. Wiki says these are fusion engines, the same ones Valkyrie uses for reaching orbit, which would mean absolutely no limits to hovering altitudes.

A ot of it's stuff was not given, they had a huge potential in their stereolithography plant that produced it, including pretty complicated stuff, like a huge, remote controlled bulldozer. This means that building something as simple as a bomb body (or even a heavy tank) on their own would be possible.

They were a mining operation. I'm sure their fabricator came with pre-programmed designs for heavy machinery.

Heavy machinery, light ground attack vehicles, and on the other side, heavy assault gunships like Dragon. Designs can always be made or bought, and then sent over comms.

Because they didn't have any dedicated bombers and the only plane they had that could "bomb" was a jerry rigged civilian aircraft? Because they COULDN'T bomb the shit out of the Na'vi, because they lacked the capabilities, and the best they had was the shuttle with its half-assed daisy cutter?

Bomb, strafe, pound with unguided rockets, whatever. After all, RDA gunships, especially these huge dragons, could be easily refitted with a few bomb racks.

Unless it uses anti-gravity technology, its VTOL will have a limit to how high it can hover off the ground. You don't see Harriers or F-35s VTOLing until they reach the stratosphere.

How about when the Venture Star pulls up out of its dive?

Bah, i don't see any jet planes without altitude limits. But that's a limitation of jet engines (getting not enough oxygen), not of the VTOL concept. Considering Valkyrie can fly completly without atmosphere, without any outside oxygen supply, this point does not apply to it.
A vehicle with a rocket engine could VTOL it's way even to space, if it had enough fuel.

I don't think even Curtis LeMay would've expected the Vietnamese wildlife to turn against him.

Vietnamese wildlife had no bio-USB ports that vietcong could plug into.
But still, snakes and scorpions were used against US forces.

They didn't inflict serious losses on the RDA craft. They got slaughtered, and they only managed to take down a handful of the RDA craft. The majority of the RDA gunships were still flying and fighting when the animal attack occurred.

Suffering any noticeable losses from overgrown birds with bowmen on their backs (losses that could be avoided) isn't a good idea. These losses made defending against the animal attack less effective.

He fully knew the Na'vi, he fucking killfucked them. He didn't know Eywa, but I don't think Eywa was the "opponent" in that battle (the Na'vi didn't even think Eywa could even fight!). But, man, you might as well say that knowing is half the battle and that Quarritch would've made a lousy G.I. Joe.

So, he ignored the challenges of enviroment he was fighting in?
Just like wehrmacht, which was paralyzed by russian winter not being taken into account?
It can be called a pretty stupid move.

[LaCroix]

Let's start with an analysis of the know defense

From pandorapedia, emphasis mine

Properly, “Resources Development Administration Extra-Solar Colony 01,” but universally known as Hell’s Gate. In constant state of siege because of toxic environment and dangerous animals.

A pentagonal perimeter fence encloses the large human complex on Pandora. Major weapons towers at each apex provide heavy munitions defense against surface and air intrusions by large hostile Pandoran wildlife, while four smaller towers spaced along each side handle intrusions by smaller life forms, including burrowing attacks. A cleared thirty-meter strip wide surrounds the base, regularly patrolled by automatic plant-clearing machinery that keeps the jungle at bay through regular administration of acidic mining by-products.

http://www.pandorapedia.com/lib/exe/fet ... sgates.jpg

The pictures of the towers I found show one tower with two structures that look like heavy machine guns, angled downward, on a tower called A12. There are two identical turrets visible in the background. So it is fair to assume that this is one of the 20 smaller turrets for smaller lifeforms. The fence sides are each side 2.3382 km each.

Still, there is only about 30 meters distance from the wood to the fence, and it was show that a novice flyer is able to fly defensively between the trees. It is not probable that these turrets can fire inward, which would be a catastrophic friendly fire event if they were automated. These turrets also have large glass windows, and a control room, so they probably are operated from in there.

The heavy turrets are not shown, but probably host similar guns and possibly rocket launchers like their air force, sharing ammunition against bigger targets.

The shots also show many mountains surrounding the base that would conceal an approaching force.

Anyone has more data?

[Shroom Man 777]

Can the Venture Star even come down on such a steep approach?

A Valkyrie would be more than enough.

We never saw the Venture Star do any nimble maneuvering. The only other time we saw it fly was when Jake was delivered to Pandora. Yes, it is VTOL, yes it can enter and exit Earth's atmosphere. But hey, Space Shuttle =/= dive bomber and atmospheric reentry/reexit =/= maneuverability.

Guys maintaining advanced aircraft are not simple repairmen, like a guy who fixes people's cars. They are highly qualified, and at least a part of them must have actual engineering degrees, which means they were also being taught how to design stuff.

Yeah. I didn't get the impression that Quarritch was including much of the engineers into his plans. Well, sucks for him.

Heavy machinery, light ground attack vehicles, and on the other side, heavy assault gunships like Dragon. Designs can always be made or bought, and then sent over comms.

I thought those were designs that came with the fabricators.

Bomb, strafe, pound with unguided rockets, whatever. After all, RDA gunships, especially these huge dragons, could be easily refitted with a few bomb racks.

That's already what they did, back at the Home Tree, and probably what they'd do when they reached Soul Tree too.

Bah, i don't see any jet planes without altitude limits. But that's a limitation of jet engines (getting not enough oxygen), not of the VTOL concept. Considering Valkyrie can fly completly without atmosphere, without any outside oxygen supply, this point does not apply to it.
A vehicle with a rocket engine could VTOL it's way even to space, if it had enough fuel.

You're assuming that its VTOL engines are the same as its turboscramramfanjets, which it isn't. I mean, if that was the case, then why did its VTOL things have air intakes at all for Jake to chuck a grenade in?

Vietnamese wildlife had no bio-USB ports that vietcong could plug into.
But still, snakes and scorpions were used against US forces.

Which is why they expected the Na'vi to come riding in animals. But come on, Eywa was a complete wildcard - the Na'vi themselves were totally NOT expecting it either.

Those wild animal swarms certainly did not have Charlies plugged into their bio-USB ports. I did not see any VCs interfacing with those space dinosaurs and pterodactyl swarms that rescued the Na'vi.

Suffering any noticeable losses from overgrown birds with bowmen on their backs (losses that could be avoided) isn't a good idea. These losses made defending against the animal attack less effective.

Yeah, I guess so. I wonder why they bothered flying between the mountains if they could've simply flown over the mountains or something.

So, he ignored the challenges of enviroment he was fighting in?
Just like wehrmacht, which was paralyzed by russian winter not being taken into account?
It can be called a pretty stupid move.

Russia has cold winters. You wear clothes to protect against the cold. Everyone knows this. Russia has had cold winters before. Everyone knows that come December, the snow starts falling and things get cold.

Whereas Eywa, and the animal attack, never happened before and nobody knew it was even possible AT ALL. It's completely different.

Look. Eywa's intervention was NOT a normal part of the environment. The Na'vi themselves didn't expect it. They didn't even think it was possible! It's as much as a challenge of the environment as the USAF not expecting the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees to come to the aid of the Taliban forces!

Come on. Nobody expected that. To say that "Quarritch should've expected and should've been prepared if in case the Pandoran ecosystem attacked him" is complete bullshit since no one in the movie had any reason to expect such a thing either. That's pure hindsight and out-of-character knowledge.

[Darth Wong]

From pandorapedia, emphasis mine

Properly, “Resources Development Administration Extra-Solar Colony 01,” but universally known as Hell’s Gate. In constant state of siege because of toxic environment and dangerous animals.

A pentagonal perimeter fence encloses the large human complex on Pandora. Major weapons towers at each apex provide heavy munitions defense against surface and air intrusions by large hostile Pandoran wildlife, while four smaller towers spaced along each side handle intrusions by smaller life forms, including burrowing attacks. A cleared thirty-meter strip wide surrounds the base, regularly patrolled by automatic plant-clearing machinery that keeps the jungle at bay through regular administration of acidic mining by-products.

These people have machinery which eats through jungle like it's not even there, and they only cleared a 30m wide strip of forest around their base in a potentially hostile zone which the base administrator referred to as being on the brink of war? That's retarded.

In any case, we know they have heavy-duty forest-clearing equipment. With a week to prepare, they could easily clear a damned kilometre-wide firing zone around their base, dig in, and slaughter any attackers with all of those gun emplacements.

[Starglider]

We never saw the Venture Star do any nimble maneuvering. The only other time we saw it fly was when Jake was delivered to Pandora.

You are using the wrong terminology. The starship is called the ISV Venture Star. The SSTO shuttle is called a Valkyrie. You are calling the shuttle a 'venture star' presumably because you think it looks like the Lockheed Martin concept, even though it has a completely different engine configuration and significantly different planform.

The shuttle is a Valkyrie. The starship is the ISV Venture Star. Do not confuse them.

[Sky Captain]

Regarding Valkyrie propulsion it`s got to have some sort of jet/rocket hybrid engines like a SABRE only powered from nuclear heat source. For hovering and atmospheric flight shuttle uses it`s engines in turbojet mode without consuming onboard propellant. When ascending to orbit it probably reaches high supersonic/low hypersonic speed on turbojet power then closes the air intakes and switches it`s engines to pure rocket mode using onboard propellant supply. It makes sense since it`s much easier to make high thrust turbojets than high thrust high specific impulse rockets and for VTOL high thrust is a must have feature. Also hovering on pure rocket exhaust would be extremely hazardous to anything on the ground that`s no built to handle large amounts of heat. It would make impossible to deploy troops when hovering without incinerating them.

IMHO the best option would be to wait (while also fortifying the base and clearing large killzone around it) till the Navi have gathered and are on the move to Hell`s Gate and attack them with repeated airstrikes when they are out of flying mountains area. It would also allow RDA to maximize use of aircraft without fearing surprise attack from above since there would be no flying mountains for navi banshee riders to hide and weapon guidance screwing magnetic fields.

[Darth Wong]

I think a lot of people have seriously overestimated the tactical effectiveness of those fliers, based on their effectiveness in the highly favourable conditions where the on-screen battle took place. Yes, if they can attack from all directions while obscured by inoperable sensors, fog, and giant floating pieces of physical cover, then they can be surprisingly effective against high-tech helicopters. But take them away from that almost perfectly configured ambush environment, put them in open air against enemies with high-tech weapons and working sensors, and you have a slaughter on your hands.

[Serafina]

I think a lot of people have seriously overestimated the tactical effectiveness of those fliers, based on their effectiveness in the highly favourable conditions where the on-screen battle took place. Yes, if they can attack from all directions while obscured by inoperable sensors, fog, and giant floating pieces of physical cover, then they can be surprisingly effective against high-tech helicopters. But take them away from that almost perfectly configured ambush environment, put them in open air against enemies with high-tech weapons and working sensors, and you have a slaughter on your hands.

Two words: Speed and weapons-range.

Both were essentially non-factors in that engagement, due to terrain-restrictions and the mission-requirements.

Now imagine the same forces enaging each other in other terrain (essentially: Everywhere BUT the flying mountains).
The gunships could slaughter the Navi with long-range weapons (miniguns vs. bows: Bad missiles vs. bows: Very bad).
It is also non unlikey that they could outrun the fliers.

Add jets into the equotation and it gets way, way worse.

[CBG]

We never saw the Venture Star do any nimble maneuvering. The only other time we saw it fly was when Jake was delivered to Pandora. Yes, it is VTOL, yes it can enter and exit Earth's atmosphere. But hey, Space Shuttle =/= dive bomber and atmospheric reentry/reexit =/= maneuverability.

Atmospheric exit = pretty nice thrust, VTOL = maneuverability unattainable for non-VTOL aircraft.

Yeah. I didn't get the impression that Quarritch was including much of the engineers into his plans. Well, sucks for him.

While, starting the "let's make a huge bomb" idea, he should think about giving this task to someone who can design stuff, and make sure this bomb as good as possible. With some simple casing, the bomb gets some accuracy. If they would add something as simple as 4 fins on small electrical motors and a battery, the bomb could be wire guided into it's target from a high altitude, with 100% safety and high accuracy.

I thought those were designs that came with the fabricators.
Designs can be always at least slightly modified on spot

You're assuming that its VTOL engines are the same as its turboscramramfanjets, which it isn't. I mean, if that was the case, then why did its VTOL things have air intakes at all for Jake to chuck a grenade in?

I could not find any written material saying that Valkyrie has other engines.
And it would be pointless to have ANY kind of jet, as even turboscramramfanjets etc. do not work in space. It must have something non-jet on board.
The only think i could find about it's engines is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_ ... Technology
# Valkyrie is a space shuttle-like transport which delivers cargo and passengers to the surface. It has VTOL capability by swiveling its fusion engines, and like the C-130 Hercules was adapted as a bomber to drop daisy cutter bombs out of the rear cargo ramp.
And it is clearly saying it uses the same, pivoting engines for both atmospheric and space flight, and these are not jet engines.
Why air intakes? They seem not too vital on fusion powered aircraft, but they could have their place as sources of gas to be heated and compressed by fusion power and then ejected for thrust.

Which is why they expected the Na'vi to come riding in animals. But come on, Eywa was a complete wildcard - the Na'vi themselves were totally NOT expecting it either.

Those wild animal swarms certainly did not have Charlies plugged into their bio-USB ports. I did not see any VCs interfacing with those space dinosaurs and pterodactyl swarms that rescued the Na'vi.

They still could be considered potential danger. Attacks on RDA by wildlife happened before, and they knew it was certainly a kind of wildlife that is dangerous even to fully equipped and trained soldiers.
There still was a possibility that Na'vi or the enviroment have some trick up their sleeves that they did not use yet.

This fuckup is partially justified, but still, Quattrich do not deserve a high grade on cautiousness.

Yeah, I guess so. I wonder why they bothered flying between the mountains if they could've simply flown over the mountains or something.

Because helicopters have pretty low maximum operating altitudes, ant they are generally not made for any serious air to air combat. That's why i have written a few posts before about lack of fighters. Aircraft that are designed for outspeeding, outmaneuver and flying higher than their aerial opponents.
Enemy air force = fighters highly recommended.
Helicopters are not supposed to be main anti air force.

Russia has cold winters. You wear clothes to protect against the cold. Everyone knows this. Russia has had cold winters before. Everyone knows that come December, the snow starts falling and things get cold.

Whereas Eywa, and the animal attack, never happened before and nobody knew it was even possible AT ALL. It's completely different.

Look. Eywa's intervention was NOT a normal part of the environment. The Na'vi themselves didn't expect it. They didn't even think it was possible! It's as much as a challenge of the environment as the USAF not expecting the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees to come to the aid of the Taliban forces!

Come on. Nobody expected that. To say that "Quarritch should've expected and should've been prepared if in case the Pandoran ecosystem attacked him" is complete bullshit since no one in the movie had any reason to expect such a thing either. That's pure hindsight and out-of-character knowledge.

Except for the little part when Quarritch is told that there is a biological, planet sized supercomputer out there, which has the ecosystem as it's part.
And he just laughed off this critical piece of intel.

[Connor MacLeod]

We saw the RDA mop the floor with the Na'Vi on the ground. I doubt the RDA would be any LESS effective from a fortified position. Aerial assault would be more of a problem for them, although out of the flux I expect the dangers of the gunships and transports to go up tremendously - for one thing they ought to be able to use missiles more. Even allowing for some sort of "aerial superiority" the RDA could have been deploying those gunships to attack the Na'Vi forces en route (ground and air) to deplete or weaken their forces and prevent them from establishing camp sites (I would assume the Na'vi would need to rest at least once if they made an assault - the movie seems to indicate they and most o fthe creatures on Pandora still need similar amounts of sleep to what we do.)

I also vaguely recall that when Sully arrives on the planet we see some of the defenses - weren't there some fixed emplacement guns? We know the gunships and such have HMGs that were detachable from the transports (Jake in his Na'Vi form was carrying one and they did agai later) so its likely that the ground forces could access such weapons.

Does anyone remember seeing if the RDA used just the attack gunships or were they using their trooop transports like the one Trudy was flying in the battle? Those things aren't as heavily armed but they are still armed (and the pilot can operate the weapons) - hell I'm a bit amazed they didnt use those more in the ground battle - the attack transports could have really tipped the odds against the supercreatures (esp if they were using Hi explosive rounds again.)

Again the RDA's tactics seemed to be more of the "terror" type thuggery the mercs had a metaphorical hardon for rather than any real attempt at tactics - the whole "the Na'Vi could attack us" was just an excuse for them to go out and kill the natives - something I gathered from teh scene is what Quaritch at least (if not the rest of the mercs, from their expressions) had been wanting to do to the Na'vi all along.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think a lot of people have seriously overestimated the tactical effectiveness of those fliers, based on their effectiveness in the highly favourable conditions where the on-screen battle took place. Yes, if they can attack from all directions while obscured by inoperable sensors, fog, and giant floating pieces of physical cover, then they can be surprisingly effective against high-tech helicopters. But take them away from that almost perfectly configured ambush environment, put them in open air against enemies with high-tech weapons and working sensors, and you have a slaughter on your hands.

One thing I recall in the movie is that while slow moving they had alot of open-air "machine gun" emplacements on the shuttle or gunship, and these made troops highly vulnerable to air attack - that may have been another thing dictating the slow speeds. If they'd ditched those I bet they could have gone faster (although now that I really think on it, why did they have to keep the rear bay open so long? Why not just open it as they were nearly on top of the target, and then pull up and let gravity drop the payloads out rather than having them pushed out?) Closing the doors and removing those open gun pits would have made attacking the RDA vehicles much more difficult for both Eywa and the Na'vi - the only way they gained a normal advantage over them was during that surprise diving attack which added momentum to their initial bowshots. They'd certainly be alot less vulnerable in a defensive role - missiles and greater mobility would take a horrendous toll on the aerial forces especially with the element of surprise gone, and all those door gunners could be deployed fighting from the base itself (just as open air but also a more stable platform, and leave sthe gunships and such to fight more freely.)

That's actually another thing in favor of the Pelican I think. In the novel The Flood I remember a Pelican dropping MC a Warthog from the air (impromptu deployment IIRC but still feasible) - I'd expect it could do the same with a bomb, and it wouldnt have (or need) open hatches with gunnery crews deployed.

[Starglider]

The only think i could find about it's engines is this:

Apparently written by people who do not have a fucking clue what they are on about. If you actually watch the film, it is quite clear that there are four engines used for hovering in swivelling pods, and two more big engine units in fixed pods at the back. The jet pods were folded away flush with the wings when it was in space.

Why air intakes? They seem not too vital on fusion powered aircraft

They are essential if you want any kind of range; google 'nuclear powered bomber' to find out about this worked in real life. Nuclear thermal rockets have relatively low payload fractions if they are forced to rely on stored propellant only.

[PeZook]

I think a lot of people have seriously overestimated the tactical effectiveness of those fliers, based on their effectiveness in the highly favourable conditions where the on-screen battle took place. Yes, if they can attack from all directions while obscured by inoperable sensors, fog, and giant floating pieces of physical cover, then they can be surprisingly effective against high-tech helicopters. But take them away from that almost perfectly configured ambush environment, put them in open air against enemies with high-tech weapons and working sensors, and you have a slaughter on your hands.

I thought so as well during the movie, but it's entirely possibly they simply didn't have enough ammo: the entirety of their production has to go through fabricators, and they make everything the RDA uses. The gear they had on site was being stockpiled for decades, and one can imagine the kind of strain their production capacity was undergoing just to maintain the huge machinery and those refinery buildings we saw in the background. And, of course, it's not like they have all the resources necessary for making explosives and guidance systems on-site, they probably had to survey the area and mine for them outside the base. This can readily explain many things, from the AMP suit's armament to their lack of fixed-wing aircraft, dedicated ground combat vehicles, RPGs, mortars etc.

Among other factors, Quaritch might've been worried they'd simply run out of ammo and/or fuel if they tried to destroy a 20 000 man army from the air. He could've stayed behind the walls, but factors like his character and the character of his men, the short lived nature of the base personnell's enthusiasm, logistical limitations and quite possibly worries about disruptions of mining operations would convince him to make the decision to attack as soon as possible and try to dissuade the Na'Vi from prosecuting a prolonged war.

Plus, despite his pep talk in the mess hall, he really didn't think much of the Na'Vi, and was itching to get back at Pandora itself for being so uppity

These people have machinery which eats through jungle like it's not even there, and they only cleared a 30m wide strip of forest around their base in a potentially hostile zone which the base administrator referred to as being on the brink of war? That's retarded.

In any case, we know they have heavy-duty forest-clearing equipment. With a week to prepare, they could easily clear a damned kilometre-wide firing zone around their base, dig in, and slaughter any attackers with all of those gun emplacements.

We don't know much about that equipment and the jungle. It's not really a given that if their machinery can clear and maintain a 30m strip around the fence, then it can cut out a kilometer wide one as well. Their capacity is probably limited to some degree we are not quite sure about, and they have to balance the needs of the military, the mining operation and the civilians living on the base when it comes to fabricator time.

[aieeegrunt]

But a massive uprising like that, you'd think the military would get absolute priority over resources though. Just clearinging out the jungle close to the base would more or less make them invulnerable so long as ammo held out.