A Borg Cube in Babylon 5

[Kamakazie Sith]

There is another factor that needs to be taken account,well several actually. One of the most important ones is that the Borg, like there federation counterparts are tactically and strategically incompetent. They might have got that way assimilating the federation\klingons etc general ineptitude in the ST-verse. In any event, the borg in space are nothing to write home about(and that is where they are strongest). On the ground, borg drones are slow, clumsy, carry no ranged weapons, and there general style of "combat" both tactically and individually involves little more than shambling around injecting dimwited federation red-shirts.

Very true. One lone cube really has no hope of victory. It may win a battle or two, but it will be destroyed eventually.

There are 3 main groups in B5 a cube would come up against.

At the lowest level, are the weaker younger races, these would includes races like Narn, Brakiri, Gaim etc. A Borg cube would most likely defeat these races forces fairly easily.

Next up from them, are the Major Races, Earth Alliance, Mimbari, Centauri Republic. These races have large fleets of advanced warships of varying degrees of sophistication. But more importantly, these powers fleets are staffed and manned by experienced and competent military personel. Something a borg cube would never encounter in ST. These powers singly or in concert could muster forces sufficent to destroy a borg cube once its nature was understood with only moderate difficulty at worst. Dont forget that EA, Mimbar and the Centauri also possess telepaths that could be used against the borg in various capacities. Sheriden uses Telepaths to good effect against the Shadows, I think its reasonable to assume they would be just as effective against the borg

I don't really have a problem with anything you said except the use of telepaths against the Borg. Is there a B5 episode that involves the use of telepaths against non-shadow ships, and if so why don't you see telepaths used more often in starship combat?

At the top level, are of course, the First ones. Its hard to say exactly how the Vorlons\Shadows would react to race like the borg. They may regard these borg as something the younger races can deal with on there own. Or they might perceive the borg as a low-level threat or possibly even mildly offensive to them. The Shadows for example, may not like them because the Shadows are all about strength through forced evolution. The borg are the antitheses of that ideal. The borg are an evolutionary and technological dead end, thus the Shadows may not care for them assimilating all the races they want to see fighting one another. The Vorlons conversely, want to guide and shepard the younger races, their ultimate goal(and the shadows for that matter), is to see that races that can make the cut to speak, eventually achieve First One status. Having these borg running around trying to assimilate everything in sight, does not advance this goal in any way. In any event, the Borg have nothing on the First Ones, they are millions of years old, the borg would present no challenge to either Shadow Battlecrabs or even standard Vorlon Cruisers. Its would not take a large force from either race to destroy a cube should they wish to.

What numbers are you basing this on? The figures from Babtech, and this website suggest that a Sovereign class starship could possibly destroy a Shadow battlecrap in direct combat. The victor isn't for certain. If a Sovereign poses a lethal danger to a Shadow vessel then it isn't a stretch to say that a Borg cube isn't at least an equal threat.

The closest thing to the B5 verse fighting something similar to the Borg occurs in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5:_Thirdspace. A Scratch Fleet of the Younger races were able to defeat(ok barely) the Thirdspace aliens, which imo, were far more dangerous and capable than the borg could ever hope to be. Compared to the Thirdspace aliens, the borg are cardboard cutouts, a fools imitation. The simple fact that the the major races and indeed most all races, both on the ground and in space, know how to fight. Even if the borg won a battle or two, I have no doubt they would learn from there defeats and eventually prevail. In B5 you would never see something as stupid any of the younger races mustering a large(ish) fleet of non-warships carrying children with them to go into battle with a hostile alien invader

I don't recall seeing children on any of the UFP ships during fleet actions. Do you? Overall I agree with your general point, but I find your flare for drama amusing. "Compared to the Thirdspace aliens, the borg are cardboard cutouts, a fools imitation" LMAO.

[Kamakazie Sith]

This may run the risk of sounding like fanwank, if so let me know, but a Whitestar or a shuttle, packed with those 500 megaton nukes, ramming into the Cube or detonating nearby while on remote. Possibly during the fleet action to keep the cube's weapons busy so it doesn't shoot the delivery system down, should be enough to take it out right?

Simplistic I know, but do the Borg really deserve anything more complicated? Always did like "Nuke'm Johnny" . How well would Mimbari target jamming fare against Trek targeting in general, or is it one of those things that's poorly described so it's hard to say either way?

As for the sci-fi "tactics" often being little more than techno-gimmicks, the more techno-babel the more of a "genius" they were supposed to be , that's something i've been rather tired of myself, and why I really enjoy the strategy page and hope to see more updates.

If you could work up the logistics to move a 500MT nuke into place and move in fleet resources to distract a Borg cube while a whitestar executes a kamikaze attack then chances are you could just destroy the cube in direct combat without sacrificing a whitestar and a 500mt. Doesn't seem simple at all...it seems like a deperate tactic when the situation does not require one.

[Wing Commander MAD]

I don't recall seeing children on any of the UFP ships during fleet actions. Do you? Overall I agree with your general point, but I find your flare for drama amusing. "Compared to the Thirdspace aliens, the borg are cardboard cutouts, a fools imitation" LMAO.

Weren't Sisko's wife and son aboard the Saratoga when it engaged the Borg at Wolf 359? Whether we should consider Wolf 359 as a proper fleet action is questionable of course.

[Teleros]

Given the threat at Wolf 359 it's possible (likely?) that the ships sent simply didn't have the time to get all the civilians evacuated beforehand. If it's a choice between Earth falling and a few thousand civilian & children deaths at most... yeah not much of a moral dilemma to most people.

[Kane Starkiller]

What numbers are you basing this on? The figures from Babtech, and this website suggest that a Sovereign class starship could possibly destroy a Shadow battlecrap in direct combat. The victor isn't for certain. If a Sovereign poses a lethal danger to a Shadow vessel then it isn't a stretch to say that a Borg cube isn't at least an equal threat.

Star Trek ships like Galaxy are threatened by 10TW level radiation with the intensity of 30MW/m2 as seen in Relics while the addition of a flare, itself carrying no more than 1000TJ level energy with the intensity also in tens of MW/m2, will destroy even a large Borg ship outright.
A Shadow ship emits a beam in, at least, 1000TW range with the intensity on the order of 10TW/m2 or million times more than aforementioned incidents.
In other words a Shadow ship will be able to destroy a Sovereign with a one-two second burst at most.
On the other hand we know that a Shadow ship can withstand a several second (at least) burst from a Sharlin whose beam is rated at 50kt/s(Babtech gives a range of 10kt/s-50kt/s depending on whether melt or vaporization is assumed but since the beam in the example sliced through the target without impedance or flicker the target was clearly vaporized).
So a Shadow ship can absorb on the order of 500TJ-1000TJ applied to it at a rate of 200TW and the intensity on the order of TW/m2 making it at least as durable as the Borg ship from Descent which is tactically superior to a Galaxy.
In conclusion endurance of a Shadow ship is at least comparable to a Sovereign while its firepower is far greater giving it a clear edge.

[Lord Insanity]

According to the Tech page Phasers are roughly equivalent to 1 kiloton per second versus armor. (7 megatons versus shields but the Borg weren't using those.) According to the BabTech page on EA ships an Omega-class destroyer's main 'lasers' are roughly equivalent to 9 kilotons per second.

At the lowest level, are the weaker younger races, these would includes races like Narn, Brakiri, Gaim etc. A Borg cube would most likely defeat these races forces fairly easily.

If I remember correctly it was not so subtly implied that the Narn sold beam weapons to the EA during the Earth-Mimbari war. As the Narn beams are mounted on their ships similarly to EA beams and they are both red that certainly fits with the canon anyway. The BabTech page on the Narn has the absolute upper limit of their beams as delivering 60 megatons over 7 seconds.

Given the above I doubt even the Narn would have trouble stomping a single Borg cube. Any larger factions are just as safe for the simple fact that none of them are going to stop shooting like the Enterprise did in Q Who.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Star Trek ships like Galaxy are threatened by 10TW level radiation with the intensity of 30MW/m2 as seen in Relics while the addition of a flare, itself carrying no more than 1000TJ level energy with the intensity also in tens of MW/m2, will destroy even a large Borg ship outright.
A Shadow ship emits a beam in, at least, 1000TW range with the intensity on the order of 10TW/m2 or million times more than aforementioned incidents.
In other words a Shadow ship will be able to destroy a Sovereign with a one-two second burst at most.

It seems that you aren't taking into account the other examples of GCS shield strength. Your Relics example points to a weakness against plasma based weapons. If you review the shield section of the main page which takes into account many different episodes the general conclusion is the GCS has a shield strength in the low megatons.

If we assume that a GCS can withstand a total of 2Mt(8000Tj) before being rendered combat ineffective/destroyed then a GCS/SCS should be able to withstand several seconds of a Shadow beam.

On the other hand we know that a Shadow ship can withstand a several second (at least) burst from a Sharlin whose beam is rated at 50kt/s(Babtech gives a range of 10kt/s-50kt/s depending on whether melt or vaporization is assumed but since the beam in the example sliced through the target without impedance or flicker the target was clearly vaporized).

So a Shadow ship can absorb on the order of 500TJ-1000TJ applied to it at a rate of 200TW and the intensity on the order of TW/m2 making it at least as durable as the Borg ship from Descent which is tactically superior to a Galaxy.
In conclusion endurance of a Shadow ship is at least comparable to a Sovereign while its firepower is far greater giving it a clear edge.

Again, from the information gathered on the main page. The best example of ST firepower is probably from Pegasus. Which a safe figure would probably be 300Kt photon torpedoes. We've seen the Enterprise in TNG Survivors unleash a barrage of roughly nine photon torpedos in roughly one second which roughly adds up to 2.7Mt (11300Tj)...which going off of your figures is more than enough to destroy a Shadow battlecrap. The other factor is the Shadow vessel will be sustaining internal damage immediately while the Sovereign has a second or two of shield protection.

Though if you go off the upper limit from Babtech (60Mt) then that does put give the Shadow vessel the advantage...though this is a very generous upper limit. This is going off the calculations from the Babtech involving the destruction of a Shadow vessel from a 600Mt bomb. The other figure from that page suggests the Shadow vessel may have been destroyed by no more than 50000Tj (11Mt).

[Kane Starkiller]

It seems that you aren't taking into account the other examples of GCS shield strength. Your Relics example points to a weakness against plasma based weapons. If you review the shield section of the main page which takes into account many different episodes the general conclusion is the GCS has a shield strength in the low megatons.

If we assume that a GCS can withstand a total of 2Mt(8000Tj) before being rendered combat ineffective/destroyed then a GCS/SCS should be able to withstand several seconds of a Shadow beam.

Not just Relics but Descent, Redemption and that episode in which Defiant causes a flare that blows up Dominion shipyards points to the fact that starships of major Star Trek powers will be instantaneously destroyed by less than 1000TJ. Shadow beams also aren't lasers since they are visible in space which means they are comprised of some kind of particles which possess mass. I don't see why a concentrated high speed stream of particles will be less effective than the diffuse gas found in solar flares.
The fact that Galaxy can take 8000TJ at a rate of some 10TW and the intensity of about 30MW/m2 doesn't in any way mean it can withstand a concentrated beam of 1000TW for 8 seconds. I can lie on the beach all day and at solar intensity of 100W/m2 receive a MJ of energy. That doesn't mean I can take a 1cm wide 500kW laser beam to the gut and withstand it for 2 seconds.

Again, from the information gathered on the main page. The best example of ST firepower is probably from Pegasus. Which a safe figure would probably be 300Kt photon torpedoes. We've seen the Enterprise in TNG Survivors unleash a barrage of roughly nine photon torpedos in roughly one second which roughly adds up to 2.7Mt (11300Tj)...which going off of your figures is more than enough to destroy a Shadow battlecrap. The other factor is the Shadow vessel will be sustaining internal damage immediately while the Sovereign has a second or two of shield protection.

Though if you go off the upper limit from Babtech (60Mt) then that does put give the Shadow vessel the advantage...though this is a very generous upper limit. This is going off the calculations from the Babtech involving the destruction of a Shadow vessel from a 600Mt bomb. The other figure from that page suggests the Shadow vessel may have been destroyed by no more than 50000Tj (11Mt).

Photon torpedo strength comes form the assumption on what Riker exactly meant when he talked about destroying Pegasus. In fact the SDN page points out that 0.1Mt-3MT is actually an upper limit because of the assumption that the entire asteroid will be pulverized which is not necessary to destroy the cloak. These assumptions can't stand against the directly observed shield limitations.
Secondly, as I pointed out, a Shadow ship withstood several seconds of Minbari fire without any visible damage. Regardless of what is the defense mechanism of the Shadow ship (armor or shields) it will not be damaged if its heat dissipation capacity is not overwhelmed. Which means that Federation ships must be able to provide firepower in excess of 50kt/s in the few seconds (in fact I would say even less than a second) it will take for a Shadow ship to destroy it.

[Teleros]

Shadow beams also aren't lasers since they are visible in space

So are the lasers in the series, although the particle beam weapons look substantially different to say EA or Narn lasers.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Shadow beams also aren't lasers since they are visible in space

So are the lasers in the series, although the particle beam weapons look substantially different to say EA or Narn lasers.

I don't think visibility of beams can be used to indicate their nature in soft scifi. After all, we also hear sound in space. All beam weapons are visible for similar dramatic reasons. We don't know the nature of the Shadow cutting beam, but since it looks different than the EA and Narn beams, which are supposed to be lasers, we probably can deduce that the Shadow beam is not a visible light, IR or UV laser. However, it could still be a hard X-ray or gamma ray laser, which would be sufficiently wanky for the Shadows. However, I agree that most likely it is supposed to be some kind of particle beam.

[Kuroji]

Considering that the various militaries on all sides of the B5 universe are at least competent and will not hesitate to shoot first and ask questions later if the Borg decide to be hostile, about the only way they're going to stand half a chance is finding a lone ship somewhere and doing everything they can to assimilate their technologies without large conflicts. Then again, how often would you see a lone ship running around in B5? Pretty infrequently, I'd wager.

Beside, the Borg aren't that smart. They'll just charge toward Earth or something and be blown to smithereens.

[Ghost Rider]

Again why charge Earth? The problem of this scenario is the twofold.

1. Borg know of the tech levels of all the races but the Shadows and First Ones.

2. Their method of travel allows them more ability then the Jump Gates.

So given the Borg's want of technology and other such things they will see how the others rate, but realize the Vorlons are the ones they want. The problem? They attack a Young Race ships(Since we see fleets in B5 all the time ), they will garner the notice of the Vorlons. The Shadows in single combat can destroy a cube, the Vorlons are on par. The Vorlons, like the Shadows, have their own plans and wouldn't care for an outsider. The Borg do not have the advantage of determining the battlefield as they do against the other races. They die before the Younger races stop arguing of how to handle this new threat in the week it takes to realize this. Fuck at this point of the series they are likely to argue for weeks determining if this isn't some Narn/Minibari/Centauri super weapon.

So yes, let's make this more complex for the sake of making the Younger race gather a fleet to intercept the Borg...because why again? I mean both times the Federation did it was because they knew where the Borg are coming from. What are they going to do here, plaster a sign going "Hot Borg Queen on Earth!"?, instead of going the logical route that the Borg die because a greater power is in the B5 universe.

[Themightytom]

instead of going the logical route that the Borg die because a greater power is in the B5 universe.

Assuming a confrontation between the Borg and the Vorlons is akin to assuming a confrontation with the Borg and Earth. Why do we assume the Borg would challenge a greater power in the first place just to get their tech? Species 8472 isn't a particularly clear example because that species is insanely aggressive, and while the borg may have thought they were safe because fuidic space is apart from normal space, they just happened to be wrong. Are there examples of Borg doggedly sending wave attacks against a superior foe in anything other than fanfic? There's nothing to suggest the borg would suicide their one cube against the Vorlons to gain their tech. the Vorlons aren't entirely dependent on Jump gates, but neither are they as fast in normal space as cubes.

If the borg are out matched they can just run as far as we know, and try to hide somewhere without a lot of traffic, maybe a system with no jump gate. the OP states "Some minor League" race. So not the humans, not the Mimbari so not necessarily crucial to anything the Vorlons were working on during The gathering. In all seriousness the Borg just have to assimilate the purple Drazi leader and they suddenly lead half the damn race. Now they have legitimate access to information about the other races, technology and industry. There are plenty of scenarios in which the Borg work their way up to challenging the Vorlon rather than throwing their one Cube at them.
For their part the Vorlons won't necessarily see the borg as a threat until at the very least... they are one.

[Ghost Rider]

instead of going the logical route that the Borg die because a greater power is in the B5 universe.

Assuming a confrontation between the Borg and the Vorlons is akin to assuming a confrontation with the Borg and Earth. Why do we assume the Borg would challenge a greater power in the first place just to get their tech? Species 8472 isn't a particularly clear example because that species is insanely aggressive, and while the borg may have thought they were safe because fuidic space is apart from normal space, they just happened to be wrong. Are there examples of Borg doggedly sending wave attacks against a superior foe in anything other than fanfic? There's nothing to suggest the borg would suicide their one cube against the Vorlons to gain their tech. the Vorlons aren't entirely dependent on Jump gates, but neither are they as fast in normal space as cubes.

If the borg are out matched they can just run as far as we know, and try to hide somewhere without a lot of traffic, maybe a system with no jump gate. the OP states "Some minor League" race. So not the humans, not the Mimbari so not necessarily crucial to anything the Vorlons were working on during The gathering. In all seriousness the Borg just have to assimilate the purple Drazi leader and they suddenly lead half the damn race. Now they have legitimate access to information about the other races, technology and industry. There are plenty of scenarios in which the Borg work their way up to challenging the Vorlon rather than throwing their one Cube at them.
For their part the Vorlons won't necessarily see the borg as a threat until at the very least... they are one.

So given

This is at the start of B5, Earth and the Alliances are at their weakest points. The Vorlons have, like the Shadows, been noted with massive tinkering before hand. We know the Vorlons consider anything that might threaten their Ragnarok plans as a threat...what makes you think the Borg have to go after the Vorlons? They attack a ship, the Younger races debate until the cows come home of which race it might really possibly be and K'ash comes in going "It is done.".

Unless you somehow think the Vorlons aren't going to consider a race that assimilates and goes on it's kick to devour other races as a non threat. That is a rather large claim, and I'd like to see evidence of the Vorlons ignoring that level of threat.

[Kane Starkiller]

the Vorlons aren't entirely dependent on Jump gates

Shadows and Vorlons aren't at all dependent on jump gates. Even small shadow fighters are capable of phasing to hyperspace independently of a jump gate.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Not just Relics but Descent, Redemption and that episode in which Defiant causes a flare that blows up Dominion shipyards points to the fact that starships of major Star Trek powers will be instantaneously destroyed by less than 1000TJ. Shadow beams also aren't lasers since they are visible in space which means they are comprised of some kind of particles which possess mass. I don't see why a concentrated high speed stream of particles will be less effective than the diffuse gas found in solar flares.

It seems like you are making an assumption that they will be just as effective because you can see these beams in space even though lasers are visible in space in B5. Do you know of a B5 episode which states these weapons are particle weapons?

The fact that Galaxy can take 8000TJ at a rate of some 10TW and the intensity of about 30MW/m2 doesn't in any way mean it can withstand a concentrated beam of 1000TW for 8 seconds. I can lie on the beach all day and at solar intensity of 100W/m2 receive a MJ of energy. That doesn't mean I can take a 1cm wide 500kW laser beam to the gut and withstand it for 2 seconds

I agree with your analogy, but that doesn't necessarily apply to GCS shields. If on screen evidence shows photon torpedo strength ranging from 100Kt - 3Mt and the Enterpise-D took several bare hull impacts in Generations, and in Nemesis the Enterprise-E took several shield impacts, and then several hull impacts. It seems like 2Mt isn't an unreasonable number.

Photon torpedo strength comes form the assumption on what Riker exactly meant when he talked about destroying Pegasus. In fact the SDN page points out that 0.1Mt-3MT is actually an upper limit because of the assumption that the entire asteroid will be pulverized which is not necessary to destroy the cloak. These assumptions can't stand against the directly observed shield limitations.

All those direct shield observations that you're refering to have one thing in common. Solar prominences. Though I'm not sure if the example from the DS9 episode Shadow and Symbols is appropriate as it releases a solar flare that will destroy everything within a hundred million kilometers. This solar flare is much larger than the flares in Descent and Redemption, and according to NASA large flares release insane amounts of energy.

Secondly, as I pointed out, a Shadow ship withstood several seconds of Minbari fire without any visible damage. Regardless of what is the defense mechanism of the Shadow ship (armor or shields) it will not be damaged if its heat dissipation capacity is not overwhelmed. Which means that Federation ships must be able to provide firepower in excess of 50kt/s in the few seconds (in fact I would say even less than a second) it will take for a Shadow ship to destroy it.

You are right we didn't see any visible damage, but we have seen a White Star destroy a Shadow vessel. It took 30 seconds of sustained firing to do so. If we assume that a White star main gun is equal to that of a Sharlin then a Shadow vessel can take 1.5Mt at 50Kt/s before being destroyed.

In TNG Survivors the E-D is able to fire off at least nine photons in roughly a second. Even at 100Kt per photon that should be enough to do some serious damage, and considering that a Shadow vessels was rendered combat ineffective after Narns destroyed a spine then it isn't too far of a stretch to say that a full spread of photons will be enough to at least mission kill the ship.

Of course, if certain weapon fire is more effective due to special properties then that will greatly effect the outcome. If Shadow weapons are particle weapons then they probably will be able to destroy a GCS in roughly a second. However, Shadow ships use shields and are biological in nature. This means phasers will be devastating against them. Using the figures from the main page it will be 7Mt/s. To be conservative we'll say phasers will deliver around 1Mt/s or 4000Tj. Given the White star example a GCS should be able to destroy a Shadow vessel in a second.

Now since this thread is pretty much a Borg vs. Shadow thread and Borg energy weapons demonstrate a vastly superior NDF effect than phasers a Borg cube will be able to kill Shadow vessels in less than a second. Unfortunately for the Shadow vessel it might take a bit longer to carve up a Borg cube before being destroyed.

Now we know Shadow vessels are able to phase in and out of hyperspace...so that gives that a large advantage for first strike.

[Themightytom]

So given

This is at the start of B5, Earth and the Alliances are at their weakest points. The Vorlons have, like the Shadows, been noted with massive tinkering before hand. We know the Vorlons consider anything that might threaten their Ragnarok plans as a threat...what makes you think the Borg have to go after the Vorlons? They attack a ship, the Younger races debate until the cows come home of which race it might really possibly be and K'ash comes in going "It is done.".

Unless you somehow think the Vorlons aren't going to consider a race that assimilates and goes on it's kick to devour other races as a non threat. That is a rather large claim, and I'd like to see evidence of the Vorlons ignoring that level of threat.

The Vorlons call the younger races pebbles. unless the borg are a threat to them they won't care. Their plans for Ragnarok seem extremely flexible anyway. The Vorlons didn't do anything to protect Delenn during Earth/mimbari first contact, they didn't do anything to protect Sheridan during the Earth mimbari War (And actually Purple Kosh tried to kill him) nor did they do anything to protect Sinclair during the zounds of dangerous situations he encountered in B5 Season one. one of which WAS the Vorlons. Those three are pivotal to establishing the time circle that sends B4 back to the Last Great War as well as building and leading the forces the Vorlons wanted to pit against the Shadows.If Sheridan Delenn or Sinclair had died in the war the Shadows aren't defeated in the past which speaks to both Ragnarak plans I can think of (The circle and the parental argument).

if the Borg enter the B5 continuum at the point mentioned they become part of its events, and the Vorlons would believe they won't disrupt their plans, because if they had, Sinclair wouldn't have brought B4 to the past. if the Borg DO disrupt the sequence of events, than the Vorlons would have no plan to protect in the first place as an entirely different series of events would be unfolding.

the Vorlons aren't entirely dependent on Jump gates

Shadows and Vorlons aren't at all dependent on jump gates. Even small shadow fighters are capable of phasing to hyperspace independently of a jump gate.

That's true strictly speaking but in terms of searching a large area its easier to find a ship hiding in space well trafficked by younger races than by hopping in and out of hyperspace at intervals because you don't real space FTL. So the degree of dependence I was referring to would be in terms of scanning an area. They would have to rely for purposes of efficiency on normal ship traffic reporting sightings of a massive cube.

With the Shadows it would be less of a process to search as they seem to blend in and out, the Vorlons on the other hand throw up three second jump point every time they go in and out.

[Kane Starkiller]

It seems like you are making an assumption that they will be just as effective because you can see these beams in space even though lasers are visible in space in B5. Do you know of a B5 episode which states these weapons are particle weapons?

Actually all we really see is that ships get blown up by less than 1000TJ events and with intensity less than 100MW/m2. That those flares are particularly effective in disabling shields as opposed to simply overwhelming them through sheer energy and power is an assumption based on certain incidents like TWoK but which is by no means certain.
Secondly we know that even when the shields are down or rendered irrelevant like in Generations battle against BoP or "Jem'Hadar" episode in which a Galaxy fights against three Jem'Hadar ships the Galaxy class actually didn't sustain large visible damage to its hull even after minutes of combat. Thus the shields don't provide more than a few times more protection than the hull armor itself otherwise a shielded Galaxy should be able to receive sustained pounding for tens of minutes. In First Contact Federation fleet concentrates power on a Borg ship and actually starts digging a hole in it, its shields obviously long gone, and yet the weapons themselves don't cause massive damage. Yet a 1000TJ flare blows up a large Borg vessel outright. So even assuming that flare somehow switches the shields off and proceeds to the hull directly it still puts the limits on the shields and weapons of Federation ships as nowhere near a Shadow ship.
Finally whatever B5 characters call their weapons the fact they are visible means they are not lasers. If they are not photons (massless particles) then they do have mass.

I agree with your analogy, but that doesn't necessarily apply to GCS shields. If on screen evidence shows photon torpedo strength ranging from 100Kt - 3Mt and the Enterpise-D took several bare hull impacts in Generations, and in Nemesis the Enterprise-E took several shield impacts, and then several hull impacts. It seems like 2Mt isn't an unreasonable number.

I don't see why it wouldn't apply to the shields: like human skin they have a certain heat capacity and reradiation rate. If reradiation rate is exceeded then when heat capacity is overwhelmed there will be damage.
If independent measurements against known objects like stars constrain shield capacity then obviously that will constrain photon torpedo yield rather than assumed large photon torpedo yield somehow upping the shield capacity in the face of their performance against stars.
Like I said: the fact that Galaxy can take bare hull impacts without much visible damage and yet be threatened by 10TW radiation puts upper limits on firepower of major Star Trek civilizations.

All those direct shield observations that you're refering to have one thing in common. Solar prominences. Though I'm not sure if the example from the DS9 episode Shadow and Symbols is appropriate as it releases a solar flare that will destroy everything within a hundred million kilometers. This solar flare is much larger than the flares in Descent and Redemption, and according to NASA large flares release insane amounts of energy.

The fact they all include flares makes them very useful since we know so much about stars and flares. Flares do indeed sometimes release enormous amounts of energy but they are also hundreds of thousands or millions of km wide. A Star Trek ship or a shipyard will only intercept a tiny fraction of the total energy and we are talking about energy densities that won't exceed 100MJ/m2-1GJ/m2. That Dominion shipyard would be cut to ribbons by a several second burst from a group of Shadow ships.

You are right we didn't see any visible damage, but we have seen a White Star destroy a Shadow vessel. It took 30 seconds of sustained firing to do so. If we assume that a White star main gun is equal to that of a Sharlin then a Shadow vessel can take 1.5Mt at 50Kt/s before being destroyed.

In TNG Survivors the E-D is able to fire off at least nine photons in roughly a second. Even at 100Kt per photon that should be enough to do some serious damage, and considering that a Shadow vessels was rendered combat ineffective after Narns destroyed a spine then it isn't too far of a stretch to say that a full spread of photons will be enough to at least mission kill the ship.

First I don't remember a Federation ship being able to sustain a phaser beam for 30 seconds under combat conditions. A two-three second burst seems the most they can hold it. Photon torpedoes, on the other hand, can't create the kind of power intensity that enable Narn cruisers to shear off one of its legs. Also 100kt is an upper estimate assuming granite asteroid was completely shattered which is not actually necessary to destroy the cloaking device.

Of course, if certain weapon fire is more effective due to special properties then that will greatly effect the outcome. If Shadow weapons are particle weapons then they probably will be able to destroy a GCS in roughly a second. However, Shadow ships use shields and are biological in nature. This means phasers will be devastating against them. Using the figures from the main page it will be 7Mt/s. To be conservative we'll say phasers will deliver around 1Mt/s or 4000Tj. Given the White star example a GCS should be able to destroy a Shadow vessel in a second.

As demonstrated Shadow ships can withstand power intensity in excess of TW/m2. No normal biological matter can do that. So we are talking about some exotic shields, or heat dissipation capabilities. In any case I don't see why we should assume that phasers will be more effective against Shadow defenses than weapons used by Minbari or Narn.
The 7Mt/s figure for phasers is used specifically as their equivalent power against other Star Trek shields. Secondly this figure is extremely generous since it assumes that Star Trek shields have a heat capacity in excess of 100,000TJ which is calculated by simply multiplying the 10TW radiation from Relics with total elapsed time of several hours. It doesn't take into account the fact that during the many hours shields will have plenty of time to shed the excess heat even as it arrives so the actual capacity is a tiny fraction. One might as well use the 1400W/m2 at Earth and multiply it by 1 year to claim that ISS has shield capacity of several kilotons.

Now since this thread is pretty much a Borg vs. Shadow thread and Borg energy weapons demonstrate a vastly superior NDF effect than phasers a Borg cube will be able to kill Shadow vessels in less than a second. Unfortunately for the Shadow vessel it might take a bit longer to carve up a Borg cube before being destroyed.

Now we know Shadow vessels are able to phase in and out of hyperspace...so that gives that a large advantage for first strike.

Again there is no evidence NDF will be at all effective against Shadow defenses or hull materials which exhibit endurance impossible for a simple biological matter. Nor is there any evidence that phasers will be exceptionally effective against possible Shadow shields. After all they didn't do so well against Species 8472 which was also using bioships. Borg ships aren't even capable of destroying or disabling an Intrepid class vessel one on one in a short amount of time. It seems doubtful they will be able do it to a Shadow ship.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Finally whatever B5 characters call their weapons the fact they are visible means they are not lasers. If they are not photons (massless particles) then they do have mass.

Does the fact that we can hear battle sounds in space also mean that the B5 (or Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate etc.) space is not actually space, but some kind of medium, lets call it 'ether', that can conduct soud waves? It's a highly analogous situation and it would also explain why laser beams are visible; clearly they are being scattered by the same medium!

Now, I am not saying that we should discard all visual evidence as special effects that can not be used to make any conclusions, but like sound in space, visible laser beams in space or air are an extremely well established Hollywood practice even in mainstream crime and agent movies, let alone in scifi.

[Samuel]

Can't we just rationalize it is something that commanders would use for their view screens? It is nice to be able to tell what the heck you are shooting at after all. Now if it doesn't more at c, than it definately isn't a laser, but aside from that we don't have a consistent method to check.

[Kane Starkiller]

We could explain the sound by assuming that the EM radiation reaching the "camera" is also put through audio system. Similar to how there were NASA audio files where we could hear Saturns EM emissions a while back.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Good points, Kane. I guess the solar flare is really the most damaging example against ST shields, and with lazy writing and no measurable demonstrated examples of Trek firepower then that flare is all we really have to go on. Argument conceded.

[Gramzamber]

Given the threat at Wolf 359 it's possible (likely?) that the ships sent simply didn't have the time to get all the civilians evacuated beforehand. If it's a choice between Earth falling and a few thousand civilian & children deaths at most... yeah not much of a moral dilemma to most people.

They couldn't leave them on shuttles at a designated point?
This has always bothered me, especially in Sisko's case. Instead of taking command after the captain died and overseeing the evacuation he panicked and went straight to his wife and son. That's a liability if ever I saw one.

[Batman]

Not all shuttles are FTL capable, from what I recall NONE of them have anything in the way of amenities needed if you want to spend more than a dozen or so hours on them (a starship is big enough to hide the bathroom out of sight somewhere, a shuttle is not) and as TNG Starfleet ship seem to have a rather noticeable civilian population it's entirely possible that their shuttle contingents simply didn't have the capacity to CARRY that many civilians even without the aforementioned impediments.

[Rye]

You also have the special tactics that the B5 races can employ against the cube such as opening a jump point inside the cube, so that special tactic should even out the threat of Borg adapation.

Considering Borg full war tactics amount to bunching a fleet of cubes together and announcing "you will be assimilated" (In Voyager "Scorpion") they'd be particularily vulnerable to the Minbari pinpoint jump point tactic.

It's been a while since I watched B5, but how do we know they can do this "jump point inside the cube" thing? They never did it against the Vorlon planet-killer, IIRC.

I mainly remember it in "In The Beginning" and possibly some of the big warry episodes. To be fair, while JMS probably just forgot in the case of the planet killer, considering the Minbari had sensors that could reach both in and out of hyperspace to the extent they can jump into ships, it seems likely the Vorlons did also, and would detect them coming. They are the ones who built the gates, after all, and can manipulate hyperspace into "folds" that hide their fleets; getting the drop on them by coming from hyperspace is probably a less reasonable tactic.