Forerunners Vs. the Galactic Empire

[Norade]

Except you would need to show a reason why they weren't firing at full power. I can't prove that they aren't firing at full power you retard.

I HAVE PROVIDED THIS REASON IN MULTIPLE POSTS, EVEN THE ONE YOU JUST RESPONDED TO. Firing a mac at .4c in atmosphere would cause catastrophic environmental damage.

Yet you clearly didn't acknowledge the fact that they didn't need to use this level of firepower to kill a Covenant ship. Seems a bit dishonest to me.

Yay, we have a concession as well as definitive proof that every book that describes above megaton level firepower is full of shit.

All of these books were written before halo 3. They would have no way to conform with in game evidence that didn't exist yet.

Then we get some intent as well, had they wanted to show numbers that go with the books they could have, they clearly didn't showing they are either morons or didn't care about the books. Also, the scenes from Halo 2 also show similar numbers to these as well.

[Jake]

Yet you clearly didn't acknowledge the fact that they didn't need to use this level of firepower to kill a Covenant ship. Seems a bit dishonest to me.

Show me this now, link and time at which it occurs, like I've been asking for the last few posts.

Then we get some intent as well, had they wanted to show numbers that go with the books they could have, they clearly didn't showing they are either morons or didn't care about the books. Also, the scenes from Halo 2 also show similar numbers to these as well.

I don't think you can call an artist a moron for not realizing that ftl speeds would ignite the atmosphere. I'm an engineering student and it didn't even occur to me until you brought it up. The scene from Halo 2 that you can prove is a mac gun has a tiny, extremely difficult to see 'projectile' that you essentially have to be looking for to see. Or maybe they didn't care about the books. They bring in extra royalties so the MACs could be firing at 4c for all they care.

[Norade]

Yet you clearly didn't acknowledge the fact that they didn't need to use this level of firepower to kill a Covenant ship. Seems a bit dishonest to me.

Show me this now, link and time at which it occurs, like I've been asking for the last few posts.

Pretty demanding for a little prick. Anyway the scene is here the explosion is first seen at 0:34 and is faded by 0:42 when it is completely faded we no longer see a ship.

Then we get some intent as well, had they wanted to show numbers that go with the books they could have, they clearly didn't showing they are either morons or didn't care about the books. Also, the scenes from Halo 2 also show similar numbers to these as well.

I don't think you can call an artist a moron for not realizing that ftl speeds would ignite the atmosphere. I'm an engineering student and it didn't even occur to me until you brought it up. The scene from Halo 2 that you can prove is a mac gun has a tiny, extremely difficult to see 'projectile' that you essentially have to be looking for to see. Or maybe they didn't care about the books. They bring in extra royalties so the MACs could be firing at 4c for all they care.[/quote]

Yes we can, a little research would show that they are clearly doing it wrong. I only have my high school diploma and I know that, were I assigned to do art for a major project I would do my research. The scene in Halo 2 also doesn't show the gun hitting anything so oops, I guess Bungie was just being lazy again, as usual (ie: Halo: ODST).

[Jake]

Anyway the scene is here the explosion is first seen at 0:34 and is faded by 0:42 when it is completely faded we no longer see a ship.

Where is the original ship? Give the area of the screen because I still don't see it.

Yes we can, a little research would show that they are clearly doing it wrong.

Yeah, type 'relativistic projectile fired in atmosphere' into google and see what you find. I won't even learn about hypersonic flight (> mach 5) as an undergraduate and you expect some artist to accurately portray relativistic hypersonic flight it in a videogame setting? I honestly don't even know if modern science can describe a 600 ton projectile fired at .4c in atmosphere.

[Norade]

Anyway the scene is here the explosion is first seen at 0:34 and is faded by 0:42 when it is completely faded we no longer see a ship.

Where is the original ship? Give the area of the screen because I still don't see it.

I may be mistaken in assuming they fired on a ship instead of the device itself. In such as case I admit I was wrong, however the explosion is clearly not touching the spire in that scene so it is safe to say that they hit and destroyed something. Either way, the fact remains that they must have fired at full power and that full power is known to kill Covenant vessels.

Yes we can, a little research would show that they are clearly doing it wrong.

Yeah, type 'relativistic projectile fired in atmosphere' into google and see what you find. I won't even learn about hypersonic flight (> mach 5) as an undergraduate and you expect some artist to accurately portray relativistic hypersonic flight it in a videogame setting? I honestly don't even know if modern science can describe a 600 ton projectile fired at .4c in atmosphere.

Yes, because google is the be all and end all of research now... Anyway, researching the fireball of Tutankhamen, Tunguska, or Shoemaker-Levy 9 would give plenty on the subject. The things you honestly don't know would fill a library.

[Jake]

I may be mistaken in assuming they fired on a ship instead of the device itself. In such as case I admit I was wrong, however the explosion is clearly not touching the spire in that scene so it is safe to say that they hit and destroyed something. Either way, the fact remains that they must have fired at full power and that full power is known to kill Covenant vessels.

You still won't show me where the ship is on screen? Just show me or discount the evidence since your side wins anyway based on Xess's claims.

Yes, because google is the be all and end all of research now...

You'd be surprised. I managed to solve partial differential equations for a homework assignment with the help of the internet.

Anyway, researching the fireball of Tutankhamen, Tunguska, or Shoemaker-Levy 9 would give plenty on the subject. The things you honestly don't know would fill a library.

I have never heard of the fireball of Tutankhamen I admit but I certainly know that all three are vastly sub c, because trust me, if anyone found a near c asteroid or comet, it would be near infinitely massive and we would all know about it. The things anyone on the planet (Stephen Hawking included) doesn't know would fill more than one library.

[Norade]

I may be mistaken in assuming they fired on a ship instead of the device itself. In such as case I admit I was wrong, however the explosion is clearly not touching the spire in that scene so it is safe to say that they hit and destroyed something. Either way, the fact remains that they must have fired at full power and that full power is known to kill Covenant vessels.

You still won't show me where the ship is on screen? Just show me or discount the evidence since your side wins anyway based on Xess's claims.

I already said that I may be mistaken, but I also show that the shots can't have hit the central spire so the best I can say is maybe and drop it.

Yes, because google is the be all and end all of research now...

You'd be surprised. I managed to solve partial differential equations for a homework assignment with the help of the internet.

This proves that google = good research how?

Anyway, researching the fireball of Tutankhamen, Tunguska, or Shoemaker-Levy 9 would give plenty on the subject. The things you honestly don't know would fill a library.

I have never heard of the fireball of Tutankhamen I admit but I certainly know that all three are vastly sub c, because trust me, if anyone found a near c asteroid or comet, it would be near infinitely massive and we would all know about it. The things anyone on the planet (Stephen Hawking included) doesn't know would fill more than one library.

Yes, but even vastly sub c objects still create massive plumes of fire and explosions so a higher energy blast would have to do more. Also, your library would just be a few orders of magnitude larger than average.

[Jake]

Alright, I'm done on this thread untill halo reach or the forerunner novels provide any new info. It was fun.

[Norade]

One moron down, one to go. Lets see how he does with no backup.

[Invader Taz]

That's the way it should work, but in each case you seem to look at the book, look at the game, look at the book again, point to a flaw that wouldn't exist if the book didn't.

Problem is the books exist and the first thing you do in an event of a contradiction is try and reconcile the two sources. IF they can not be reconciled then you are correct the lower canon gets thrown out. But you don’t really seem to understand this still.

This is exactly what the game play shows so how do you plan to discard this? We look at evidence as if it was shot by a person on the scene unless a source that is higher or equal canon gives us reason to discard it. We have no reason to do so in this case.

We can look up and see that there is nothing visible when the SMAC platform is firing. Care to explain the Covenant can be inside the Kill Zone (AKA Effective Range of SMAC platforms) without being visible? Because the UNSC is not retarded enough to waste ammo if there is zero chance of hitting the target as in this case with speeds barely above 1 km/s.

Given that in the scenes we see them firing in MC is close enough to jump from a ship to a Covenant ship I can safely say you're full of shit. The easier explanation, and the one which allows us to keep our primary source of evidence, is that the Covenant fleet is just off camera and our view only shows us the UNSC fleet.

That was AFTER it entered visual range, dumbass. The Carrier and the rest of the Covenant fleet had been accelerating through the Kill Zone and was beyond visual range when it entered. By the time the MC reached that hangar the last two surviving Assault Carriers were in the clear and could afford to slow down since the UNSC couldn’t risk attacking them without hitting Earth.

Except that as it is one of the highest forms of canon we must use it over books. Even if we don't know the range the Covenant at, and as I have showed they don't need to be far, the shots are still highest form canon and we can scale firepower from them.

But first we must see if it can be reconciled. That along with the fact it isn’t even consistent between projectile speed and the range of the target is pretty damning, along with Halo 3 clearly retconing such ridiculously low speeds via showing MT range firepower.

This would mean that it would be imperative for them to fire with the most firepower they can. That they can only manage in the low megatons or high kilotons speaks volumes. That it does damage says even more.

1. And I have pointed out there is evidence to suggest they only manage this under the effects of the Portal.

2. Please point to where it was damage given we see the Keyship enter the portal without a dent in the hull.

Unless you can find proof then you're shit out of luck and as there is currently none your theory is shit and violates Occam's Razor as it introduces an unneeded component as well as violates the numbers calculated from Halo 2.

1. Proof based off the books. Given that the status of the shots in Halo 2 being MAC rounds is in doubt canon can be reconciled here.

2. New>Old. Halo 2 calcs give sub-kt firepower which is clearly wrong as we see in Halo 3 when they attack the Keyship.

You have no proof so quit talking out your ass.

I do in the form of MAC charge times which have only been contradicted once (twice if those are MAC rounds in Halo 2) and can be reconciled rather easily.

Or maybe the books are full of shit there too, that or they fired more weaker shots would do well enough to kill or heavily damage the Covenant vessel. In any case they had no reason not to fire a full powered shot first followed by weaker ones to finish it once the shields are down. As we don't see this we must assume that they were either firing at full power, or they expected more weaker shots to deal damage. Either option is damning.

Or maybe like I have suggested the Portal is messing it up. Which reconciles both canon tiers easily.

Except that the goal is to analyze the scene as we see, not add details until it fits with lesser canon. So you fail at two things here, making an argument and following standrd methods of analyzing sci-fi based on visual evidence and a tiered canon policy.

Which I have done. Drawing conclusions solely from that and other cut scenes alone points towards the higher-low end of Halo firepower. But once we analyze the games next we must move onto the books. We find there is a contradiction between the two sources. We already have an in-game reason that can explain this and reconcile the two canon tiers an their sources, but it is not conclusive. Bit when analyzing Sci-fi I have always found it best to minimize how much canon is thrown out in either canon tiers as long as it can be reconciled. Unless it requires plants on head retardness. Which this does not.

This shows that they can't fight nearly as effectively at longer ranges. It also fits with ranges seen in Halo 2 and other parts of Halo 3.

It shows that COVENANT SHIPS CAN NOT FIGHT NEARLY AS EFFECTIVELY AT LONGER RANGES AGAINST COVENANT SHIPS. Are you really that retarded you couldn‘t figure that out? Oh and the rounds in Halo 3 were moving at 710km/s as it has been calc which shows this was short range - just like in the books.

These systems would likely fail to the massive ECM and ECCM the GE would bring to each battle and be near impossible to burn through given the lesser power generation numbers shown for Halo.

And you will now give proof of said massive ECM and ECCM having any real effect on magnetic fields that can contain balls of plasma at .5 C at multi-light second ranges (TFoR, quotes given earlier in thread. Goes from just over one light second if we assume the plasma spent most of the time accelerating up .5 C to 9 light seconds assuming maximum range based on times given from launch to impact).

It might also be because the munitions travel so slowly that they have issues hitting or being countered at longer ranges.

And you have proof of Covenant capital ship plasma torpedoes being used in ship to ship combat being slow at long ranges?

This scene shows that Covenant ships fire slow and easily hacked AI driven weapons and must fight at close range for best effect.

Please point me to were we see Covenant CAPITAL ships and not fighters attacking given I do not recall seeing Capital ships fire on screen last night when I watch the scene. And it is only close range against other Covenant ships. I really can't believe anyone can have such a lack of a brain as to note be able to figure such a thing out.

Funny, scaling it it can't be that far away as it would appear far smaller than the closer ship in the scene. This is clearly not the case; thus you're once again full of shit.

And how far away do you say it is? The station is 348 kilometers in diameter and easily a good 1-2 thousand kilometers away when it arrives as can easily be seen by simply looking at the scene in question.

Seeing as your claim of distances is bunk we can ignore this as more ass pulling.

No matter what the pod will still have to be moving at far more than several kilometers per second to reach the Shadow of Intent in the time it did.

Also, the pod that bounces off is tiny compared to the other pod and hit with a different angle. This is a better explanation than simply trying to throw out evidence which can never be done if from a primary source.

Fine, conceded on the second pod.

It actually hits something, breaks up, and bounces. There is no course change before that so once again you're full of shit and anybody watching can see that.

So what did it hit given it broke apart in mid air right outside the window? One of us most be blind because there is nothing there for it to hit and bounce off of. Also I didn’t claim any fucking course change before, I claimed a last minute course change that is clearly there happening.

[I have shown that your assumption of inconsistency is bunk and no matter what we do not throw out primary canon evidence in favor of things from books. You can't show how much damage it has taken and, as seen in Halo Wars, not all shield interactions are visible.

So the books and the games on first inspection are no inconsistent? And please tell me how I have thrown out higher canon in favor of lower canon when as I have clearly stated I am RECONCILING the sources. Please tell me you know what the word in caps means. Also you are lying on Halo Wars, you can watch that scene and it is clear none of those Elites had shields - hell hey don’t even have plasma rifles or any range weapon! - and the only one who could have been claimed to prove this is shown not to have shields when Forge sticks a knife in his neck.

Except that trying to reconcile firepower numbers more than 10,000x different clearly doesn't work. You also constantly try to dismiss primary evidence as outliers or inconsistent when anybody can see this isn't the case.

And I agree, I ultimately look towards high MT to low GT for this. That was the point of the Scenarios. And I has not tried to dismiss higher tier canon, I have attempted to reconcile both tiers which can be done. And the second Halo 3 scene really is inconsistent given no matter what that pod could not have cross the distance it did in that time.

This makes sense.

Thank you.

Provide proof as to why this should be the case.

I am the OP. I started the thread. Because I didn't want the thread derailed (which you have done so nicely) I set up these Scenarios which you had no problem with when I posted them so we could debate the topic at hand as something interesting instead of a curbstomp.

Except that these numbers are bunk as the book they are from is so very wrong on many things. Thus until you can show it to be even close to events shown in the games I shall ignore it.

And are therefore trolling. I set up the Scenarios. Now go fuck yourself and stop derailing my thread. Because the whole fucking point of these Scenarios when you whined about the person who started the thread not being able to chose the sources to be used I posted these Scenarios, and you did not say anything was wrong with them and was ok.

I'm quaking, pussy is going to report me. Save yourself the effort, they won't give as shit seeing as Ghost Rider could have shut me down already if I was trolling. Instesd he told you to shut up with the shit and provide proof to claims and did the same to NS. You have done neither slavishly reposting and demanding I debate the book. This is a goalpost shift, your OP doesn't mention any books so

As I started this thread I can post the variables to be used for the Scenarios I posted. I posted the Scenarios we could keep from derailing the thread and move onto the more interesting debate I had in mind from the start.

It also gets the way battles are shown in the books wrong and gets firepower grossly wrong, but your dishonest ass likes to ignore this fact.

And you will please point out where it got the battles in the books wrong and also at the same time prove this was not a retcon of said older books, correct?

I have already done so. Also, even if the Covenant are far away it doesn't change the fact that in an ambush where the humans are fighting all out these weak as piss shots are what gets fired. Stop trying to ignore evidence and provide sources for your higher firepower from the games.

No, you clearly didn’t even look at the scene given this was long after they entered visual range. We should have been able to see the Covenant fleet the moment they entered the effective range of such slowing moving projectiles. And I’m sorry but I have proven given we know the Kill Zone is the effective range of the orbital defense platforms within which the Covenant can not dodge the rounds. At the low speeds that scene suggest the Covenant ships should be hanging right overhead moving at the most piss poor sub-light speeds ever seen in Sci-fi.

Scenario three is a goalpost shit, your OP never specified the books and again see above for why the Halo 2 scene still works. It also does nothing to help you if we toss that scene as we have two others in the same range to go by.

Which is a mistake I found out. But I can still state what variables will be used for Scenario X and such. And your claims of the other scenes proving anything is completely incorrect given in both of those getting in close before firing is the best thing to do.

You lie about what is shown on screen in cutscenes,

Quote and post the scene in question I am mistaken on and point to the area where I made the mistake, please. Because I have not lied about anything. Mistaken? You have to prove it.

shift goalposts faster than anybody,

So because the OPer had an interesting debate in mind doesn't mean he can post Scenarios to help clear things up and keep the thread from being derailed. You could have address each Scenario as it is written the fuck out and we would not have to have gotten into this long and thread derailing firepower debate which the entire debate has been almost since you posted in the thread.

and refuse to accept evidence prefering to try and nitpick reasons to ignore it or trying to add things to the scene which can't be proven.

Refuse evidence? Hardly. I attempt to reconcile with other canon sources which can be done. Also The Storm scene does give me support in the form of MAC charge time being wrong. Assuming each of those shots was 5 MT evey 2 seconds and going with the standard charge times of 40-60 seconds gives me 125 MT low end and 250 high end.

The battle in Halo 2, we clearly see ships within visual range as evidence by MC jumping to one with a bomb in hand.

So how is that people in-universe getting it wrong when they never say anything about it? Also that Carrier had already gone past the orbital gird and was below it. IT doesn't count because the ships I am saying we should see should be above the SMAC platform, not below it.

I may have been mistaken there, but if it is called a Super Nova by them they are dumb as are you for repeating it as fact. If not it is just you who are dumb.

I stated what the Halo Enc. gives as a name for an exploding ball of fusing hydrogen - a Super Nova.

I have pointed out a few such as ignoring sections of my posts, lying about what is going on in cutscenes and shift goalposts. All of these make you either a retard, a lair, or a coward.

I missed them. You have also missed two sections of my posts (the second one I just notice):

1. When I stated the time for ships to exit the portals in Halo 2. You did not answer that.

2. You did not reply to the section on the Gravemind at first.

Hypocrite much given you stated you have not done it before when it has happen twice in this thread? I simply missed it and answered it when you pointed out I had missed it.

Also please tell me where I lied about what is going on in a cut scene, please. And how does it make me any of those things? I have simply gotten tired of the Halo firepower debates, and the only reason I got into it with you in the first place was because of the mind numbing stupidity of sub-kiloton MAC rounds. I made this thread to be an interesting topic. You come in here and simply troll it seems.

No, that is not how canon works. You don't try to fold canon that is blatantly not fitting back in, you ignore it and move on.

Fucking wrong. The first thing you do is attempt to reconcile the two canon sources no matter the tier. As long as it doesn't require a pants on head retarded solution to reconcile the sources you don't throw it out if it can be reconciled. If the two sources can not be reconciled you are correct that higher wins.

Then why mention it at all?

Because I have support in the form of MAC standard recharge times.

Scenario three is a goalpost shit using a book that violates canon in many ways and I refuse to debate it until you finish this debate.

I fucking concede that the Halo Enc. can not be reconciled with higher tier canon? There, happy? It was the stupidity of your SUB-KILOTON claim that ticked me off here. I prefer low GT as I said because it is still reasonable and fits with Covenant glassing operations.

Oh, and did you watch the entire scene from The Strom? Because you are being dishonest if you claim - especially after being corrected - that the FORERUNNER Keyship was destroyed because we can still see it intact after the fireballs clear and when it enters the portal.

Now can we get this debate back on topic? Please point out if I missed anything as always.

[Norade]

That's the way it should work, but in each case you seem to look at the book, look at the game, look at the book again, point to a flaw that wouldn't exist if the book didn't.

Problem is the books exist and the first thing you do in an event of a contradiction is try and reconcile the two sources. IF they can not be reconciled then you are correct the lower canon gets thrown out. But you don’t really seem to understand this still.

No, I understand this, but it tends to work better when you look at the primary source first in a vacuum, then look at the books alongside the game and adjust the book to fit. You're adjusting the games numbers up to fit the books which simply put isn't how it's done.

This is exactly what the game play shows so how do you plan to discard this? We look at evidence as if it was shot by a person on the scene unless a source that is higher or equal canon gives us reason to discard it. We have no reason to do so in this case.

We can look up and see that there is nothing visible when the SMAC platform is firing. Care to explain the Covenant can be inside the Kill Zone (AKA Effective Range of SMAC platforms) without being visible? Because the UNSC is not retarded enough to waste ammo if there is zero chance of hitting the target as in this case with speeds barely above 1 km/s.

Care to explain that no matter how long you look up those rounds never hit anything? Also, they're retarded enough to make mistakes with what is and isn't in visual range, as well as not knowing what a super nova is.

Given that in the scenes we see them firing in MC is close enough to jump from a ship to a Covenant ship I can safely say you're full of shit. The easier explanation, and the one which allows us to keep our primary source of evidence, is that the Covenant fleet is just off camera and our view only shows us the UNSC fleet.

That was AFTER it entered visual range, dumbass. The Carrier and the rest of the Covenant fleet had been accelerating through the Kill Zone and was beyond visual range when it entered. By the time the MC reached that hangar the last two surviving Assault Carriers were in the clear and could afford to slow down since the UNSC couldn’t risk attacking them without hitting Earth.

The shots I showed speeds for were taken right from that section of the game smart guy. In fact the scene I linked to was as he was moving the bomb to go jump so fuck off you lying troll. Also worrying about hitting Earth is stupid, work to the other side of them and fire out to space. Oh wait, that would be smart...

Except that as it is one of the highest forms of canon we must use it over books. Even if we don't know the range the Covenant at, and as I have showed they don't need to be far, the shots are still highest form canon and we can scale firepower from them.

But first we must see if it can be reconciled. That along with the fact it isn’t even consistent between projectile speed and the range of the target is pretty damning, along with Halo 3 clearly retconing such ridiculously low speeds via showing MT range firepower.

Except that just because the MAC guns in Halo 3 fire megaton shots doesn't mean the railguns and autocannons have to have the same power.

This would mean that it would be imperative for them to fire with the most firepower they can. That they can only manage in the low megatons or high kilotons speaks volumes. That it does damage says even more.

1. And I have pointed out there is evidence to suggest they only manage this under the effects of the Portal.

There is no evidence at all for this besides your say so so shove it you limp dicked pussy.

2. Please point to where it was damage given we see the Keyship enter the portal without a dent in the hull.

We know that the UNSC ships would have been firing full power as they had every reason to and not a single one not to. We know that UNSC ships can defeat Covenant ships in combat. Even if in this case they failed to for whatever reason it changes nothing.

Unless you can find proof then you're shit out of luck and as there is currently none your theory is shit and violates Occam's Razor as it introduces an unneeded component as well as violates the numbers calculated from Halo 2.

1. Proof based off the books. Given that the status of the shots in Halo 2 being MAC rounds is in doubt canon can be reconciled here.

Not really as the mere act of firing sub kiloton rounds shows that such rounds were expected to do damage.

2. New>Old. Halo 2 calcs give sub-kt firepower which is clearly wrong as we see in Halo 3 when they attack the Keyship.

Sub kt autocannon/railgun rounds can be fired along side mt MAC gun rounds. Even if we reconcile this you're still stuck with sub 100mt per shot as maximum MAC gun power.

You have no proof so quit talking out your ass.

I do in the form of MAC charge times which have only been contradicted once (twice if those are MAC rounds in Halo 2) and can be reconciled rather easily.

They could have fired a full power shot first with a second far weaker shot behind it. There my method doesn't require magic or adding in anything new to the scene. It is by default the best theory by Occam's razor.

Or maybe the books are full of shit there too, that or they fired more weaker shots would do well enough to kill or heavily damage the Covenant vessel. In any case they had no reason not to fire a full powered shot first followed by weaker ones to finish it once the shields are down. As we don't see this we must assume that they were either firing at full power, or they expected more weaker shots to deal damage. Either option is damning.

Or maybe like I have suggested the Portal is messing it up. Which reconciles both canon tiers easily.

Except that you have no proof that the portals can do this besides yelling 'OH NOEZ, SLIP SPACE IZ MAGIK AND MESSEZ WIT MAC GUNZ! WE MUST MAKE THE BOOK NUMBERZ FITZ SOMEHOWZ!'

Except that the goal is to analyze the scene as we see, not add details until it fits with lesser canon. So you fail at two things here, making an argument and following standrd methods of analyzing sci-fi based on visual evidence and a tiered canon policy.

Which I have done. Drawing conclusions solely from that and other cut scenes alone points towards the higher-low end of Halo firepower. But once we analyze the games next we must move onto the books. We find there is a contradiction between the two sources. We already have an in-game reason that can explain this and reconcile the two canon tiers an their sources, but it is not conclusive. Bit when analyzing Sci-fi I have always found it best to minimize how much canon is thrown out in either canon tiers as long as it can be reconciled. Unless it requires plants on head retardness. Which this does not.

Except that you can't hand wave away a 10,000x difference with magic that can't even be proven to do what you're saying it is doing. Otherwise I could say, 'Well those TIEs would be destroying planets, but Centerpoint and the force are stopping them and you can't prove they aren't.'

This shows that they can't fight nearly as effectively at longer ranges. It also fits with ranges seen in Halo 2 and other parts of Halo 3.

It shows that COVENANT SHIPS CAN NOT FIGHT NEARLY AS EFFECTIVELY AT LONGER RANGES AGAINST COVENANT SHIPS. Are you really that retarded you couldn‘t figure that out? Oh and the rounds in Halo 3 were moving at 710km/s as it has been calc which shows this was short range - just like in the books.

Protip, caps don't make you right. Either way at 710km/s, is slow compared to a turbolaser shot, the shot that destroyed Alderaan was moving at 181,552km/s if we assume that the Death Star was as close to Alderaan as the moon is at perigee and the shot takes 2 seconds from firing to impact. This is 255 times faster than your 710km/s speed meaning that they can fire and hit you many hundreds of times before they even need to start moving to dodge your shot. It is also 60% of the speed of light at the low end as we can see that the laser doesn't take the entire 2 seconds to cross that gap. Thus if a Star Destroyer simply sits at 1 second range they will always hit you and you will never hit them back. Add in teraton per second level firepower and Halo is fucked.

These systems would likely fail to the massive ECM and ECCM the GE would bring to each battle and be near impossible to burn through given the lesser power generation numbers shown for Halo.

And you will now give proof of said massive ECM and ECCM having any real effect on magnetic fields that can contain balls of plasma at .5 C at multi-light second ranges (TFoR, quotes given earlier in thread. Goes from just over one light second if we assume the plasma spent most of the time accelerating up .5 C to 9 light seconds assuming maximum range based on times given from launch to impact).

I was talking about ECM defeating any attempts to hack a missile and preventing them from actively controling their weapons systems, not making plasma containment fields break. Also, we see these weapons fired in the games so fuck off with this 0.5c bullshit. If they could do that then why do they always fire them at such low velocities in the cutscenes? Star Wars proves that we can show 0.6c shots in a visual medium so you can't site that as an issue, various animes show BVR combat so you can't claim that would be too difficult to show either. The only logical explanation is that the books must be wrong once again.

It might also be because the munitions travel so slowly that they have issues hitting or being countered at longer ranges.

And you have proof of Covenant capital ship plasma torpedoes being used in ship to ship combat being slow at long ranges?

We see them fired in Halo Wars and they are not moving at 0.5c. Evidence from 7:10 to 7:25 here.

This scene shows that Covenant ships fire slow and easily hacked AI driven weapons and must fight at close range for best effect.

Please point me to were we see Covenant CAPITAL ships and not fighters attacking given I do not recall seeing Capital ships fire on screen last night when I watch the scene. And it is only close range against other Covenant ships. I really can't believe anyone can have such a lack of a brain as to note be able to figure such a thing out.

I was referring to the scene you quoted from the book where they fire slow projectiles at each other and spend most of the battle trying to redirect these weapons back at each other.

Funny, scaling it it can't be that far away as it would appear far smaller than the closer ship in the scene. This is clearly not the case; thus you're once again full of shit.

And how far away do you say it is? The station is 348 kilometers in diameter and easily a good 1-2 thousand kilometers away when it arrives as can easily be seen by simply looking at the scene in question.

Given that it doesn't look like a spec when we see it arrive it can't be more than dozens of kilometers from the other ship we see in that same scene. It would need to be many times the size of the other ship before we can get longer ranges than that. Please do show me how you derived your numbers though and show an approximate distance along with your methodology and your math. Seeing as your argument hinges on this fact it shouldn't be too much bother for you to do.

Seeing as your claim of distances is bunk we can ignore this as more ass pulling.

No matter what the pod will still have to be moving at far more than several kilometers per second to reach the Shadow of Intent in the time it did.

No, you'd need to provide a distance and how you obtained it along with math to show that the speeds we see the pods moving at aren't the correct ones.

Also, the pod that bounces off is tiny compared to the other pod and hit with a different angle. This is a better explanation than simply trying to throw out evidence which can never be done if from a primary source.

Fine, conceded on the second pod.

Yay, yet another point conceded, this is painful but I'm finally gaining ground in a debate that should have been over pages ago.

It actually hits something, breaks up, and bounces. There is no course change before that so once again you're full of shit and anybody watching can see that.

So what did it hit given it broke apart in mid air right outside the window? One of us most be blind because there is nothing there for it to hit and bounce off of. Also I didn’t claim any fucking course change before, I claimed a last minute course change that is clearly there happening.

The fuck are you watching? It hit that spire in the distance and then changed direction. The tip of that spire is blocked in the angle we see by MC's body. This is plain to see thus you must be blind.

I have shown that your assumption of inconsistency is bunk and no matter what we do not throw out primary canon evidence in favor of things from books. You can't show how much damage it has taken and, as seen in Halo Wars, not all shield interactions are visible.

So the books and the games on first inspection are no inconsistent? And please tell me how I have thrown out higher canon in favor of lower canon when as I have clearly stated I am RECONCILING the sources. Please tell me you know what the word in caps means. Also you are lying on Halo Wars, you can watch that scene and it is clear none of those Elites had shields - hell hey don’t even have plasma rifles or any range weapon! - and the only one who could have been claimed to prove this is shown not to have shields when Forge sticks a knife in his neck.

How do you reconcile two sources when one clearly carries more weight than the other. Source one shows shots in the megaton range and his higher canon, source two shows high gigaton to teraton weapons and is lower canon. What do you assign them weights and average them or something? No, you try to disregard evidence in the visual medium of cut scenes to force them to be ether inadmissible or effected by magic. Yet you have no proof besides maybe and slip space is no limits magic to back your claims up.

Also how does no ranged weapon = no shields? Leap in logic much...

As for the elites, when has any other source ever shown an elite without shields or suggested that 20 years ago they weren't common equipment? The scene in space also shows the Covenant ship not displaying shield interactions when there is no reason that ship would have had shields offline. Thus we can determine that not all shield interactions have a visible component.

Except that trying to reconcile firepower numbers more than 10,000x different clearly doesn't work. You also constantly try to dismiss primary evidence as outliers or inconsistent when anybody can see this isn't the case.

And I agree, I ultimately look towards high MT to low GT for this. That was the point of the Scenarios. And I has not tried to dismiss higher tier canon, I have attempted to reconcile both tiers which can be done. And the second Halo 3 scene really is inconsistent given no matter what that pod could not have cross the distance it did in that time.

You keep making that claim for the 14th cutscene in Halo 3, but you have yet to show any proof beyond the fact that you can't track the vectors of flood pods and make assumptions about ranges without proof.

Provide proof as to why this should be the case.

I am the OP. I started the thread. Because I didn't want the thread derailed (which you have done so nicely) I set up these Scenarios which you had no problem with when I posted them so we could debate the topic at hand as something interesting instead of a curbstomp.

Except that I only accepted them because at the time I assumed they were part of the OP, looking back I see that you have shifted the goalposts and as I stated from the start scenario three is a crock as there are no ways those numbers can be correct.

Except that these numbers are bunk as the book they are from is so very wrong on many things. Thus until you can show it to be even close to events shown in the games I shall ignore it.

And are therefore trolling. I set up the Scenarios. Now go fuck yourself and stop derailing my thread. Because the whole fucking point of these Scenarios when you whined about the person who started the thread not being able to chose the sources to be used I posted these Scenarios, and you did not say anything was wrong with them and was ok.

If I were trolling then the mods would be on me by now cupcake. I have always disputed the numbers in the books and you have clearly shifted goalposts from your statement in the OP. So fuck off. Also, were I to stop posting here this thread would die and nobody would even know there was a scenario besides the one in the OP so fuck off.

I'm quaking, pussy is going to report me. Save yourself the effort, they won't give as shit seeing as Ghost Rider could have shut me down already if I was trolling. Instesd he told you to shut up with the shit and provide proof to claims and did the same to NS. You have done neither slavishly reposting and demanding I debate the book. This is a goalpost shift, your OP doesn't mention any books so

As I started this thread I can post the variables to be used for the Scenarios I posted. I posted the Scenarios we could keep from derailing the thread and move onto the more interesting debate I had in mind from the start.

You can't suddenly, mid debate, ask that different numbers be used because you are losing. Your interesting debate consists of setting arbitrary numbers and is thus far more pointless and boring than discussing the facts as shown in the games.

It also gets the way battles are shown in the books wrong and gets firepower grossly wrong, but your dishonest ass likes to ignore this fact.

And you will please point out where it got the battles in the books wrong and also at the same time prove this was not a retcon of said older books, correct?

I don't own the encyclopedia, but I can borrow it from the library and go hunting. Until then we shall ignore the books for having wrong dates, changed dialogue, and inaccurate firepower numbers and skip the wrong on battle details portion.

I have already done so. Also, even if the Covenant are far away it doesn't change the fact that in an ambush where the humans are fighting all out these weak as piss shots are what gets fired. Stop trying to ignore evidence and provide sources for your higher firepower from the games.

No, you clearly didn’t even look at the scene given this was long after they entered visual range. We should have been able to see the Covenant fleet the moment they entered the effective range of such slowing moving projectiles. And I’m sorry but I have proven given we know the Kill Zone is the effective range of the orbital defense platforms within which the Covenant can not dodge the rounds. At the low speeds that scene suggest the Covenant ships should be hanging right overhead moving at the most piss poor sub-light speeds ever seen in Sci-fi.

A kill range doesn't mean that you can mitigate or otherwise defeat a shot fired within that range so fuck off.

Scenario three is a goalpost shit, your OP never specified the books and again see above for why the Halo 2 scene still works. It also does nothing to help you if we toss that scene as we have two others in the same range to go by.

Which is a mistake I found out. But I can still state what variables will be used for Scenario X and such. And your claims of the other scenes proving anything is completely incorrect given in both of those getting in close before firing is the best thing to do.

No, you can't set new standards of evidence and deny certain sources in mid debate. This is called shifting the goalposts. If you did post scenario three first I would still do this to prove that the book is a rag and worthless and thus you would need to use the games anyway.

You lie about what is shown on screen in cutscenes,

Quote and post the scene in question I am mistaken on and point to the area where I made the mistake, please. Because I have not lied about anything. Mistaken? You have to prove it.

You claim that the flood pod in Halo 3, cutscene 14, changes direction in mid air when it clearly bounces off a spire in that scene thus you either can't see or are a liar.

shift goalposts faster than anybody,

So because the OPer had an interesting debate in mind doesn't mean he can post Scenarios to help clear things up and keep the thread from being derailed. You could have address each Scenario as it is written the fuck out and we would not have to have gotten into this long and thread derailing firepower debate which the entire debate has been almost since you posted in the thread.

Yes, you can't post new scenarios mid debate once your side of choice starts losing. This is common sense you fucking waste of flesh.

and refuse to accept evidence prefering to try and nitpick reasons to ignore it or trying to add things to the scene which can't be proven.

Refuse evidence? Hardly. I attempt to reconcile with other canon sources which can be done. Also The Storm scene does give me support in the form of MAC charge time being wrong. Assuming each of those shots was 5 MT evey 2 seconds and going with the standard charge times of 40-60 seconds gives me 125 MT low end and 250 high end.

Are MAC gun charge times ever stated anywhere outside the books? If so give me a quote, if not then they may have a higher rate of fire than that stated in the books. Also 250mt over 60 seconds is going to be laughed at by a civilian ship in Star Wars.

The battle in Halo 2, we clearly see ships within visual range as evidence by MC jumping to one with a bomb in hand.

So how is that people in-universe getting it wrong when they never say anything about it? Also that Carrier had already gone past the orbital gird and was below it. IT doesn't count because the ships I am saying we should see should be above the SMAC platform, not below it.

I have also stated that we never see an explosion a teraton level explosion would create a visible flash of light and no matter how long we look up we will never see one. So either the aim is off and the gun we observe has an accuracy of zero for the entirety of the time we can observe it fire, or the shots are fired, are slow, and are dodged.

I may have been mistaken there, but if it is called a Super Nova by them they are dumb as are you for repeating it as fact. If not it is just you who are dumb.

I stated what the Halo Enc. gives as a name for an exploding ball of fusing hydrogen - a Super Nova.

Just another way in which that book is wrong and another reason to discard it.

I have pointed out a few such as ignoring sections of my posts, lying about what is going on in cutscenes and shift goalposts. All of these make you either a retard, a lair, or a coward.

1. When I stated the time for ships to exit the portals in Halo 2. You did not answer that.

Give me an scene with an example in it and I shall answer this question for you.

2. You did not reply to the section on the Gravemind at first.

I quickly corrected this error in my next post. You have yet to correct some of mine and I don't care to go back and find each case and state how many posts it took you to respond.

Also please tell me where I lied about what is going on in a cut scene, please. And how does it make me any of those things? I have simply gotten tired of the Halo firepower debates, and the only reason I got into it with you in the first place was because of the mind numbing stupidity of sub-kiloton MAC rounds. I made this thread to be an interesting topic. You come in here and simply troll it seems.

Halo 3, cutscene 14, flood pod direction change. You lie about it changing direction in mid air. We have seen sub-kiloton shots of which, some of them could be mac rounds, so that might also be wrong. You have tried to change scenarios mid debate. Nobody else is in this thread so if you want to debate a new scenario create a new thread with a clearer OP. I'll slap that one down as well though.

No, that is not how canon works. You don't try to fold canon that is blatantly not fitting back in, you ignore it and move on.

Fucking wrong. The first thing you do is attempt to reconcile the two canon sources no matter the tier. As long as it doesn't require a pants on head retarded solution to reconcile the sources you don't throw it out if it can be reconciled. If the two sources can not be reconciled you are correct that higher wins.

Which all of your attempts require. Magic slip space = pants on head. Velocity changing flood pods slowed by Forerunner artifact = pants on head.

Then why mention it at all?

Because I have support in the form of MAC standard recharge times.

Any of these quotes from the games?

Scenario three is a goalpost shit using a book that violates canon in many ways and I refuse to debate it until you finish this debate.

I fucking concede that the Halo Enc. can not be reconciled with higher tier canon? There, happy? It was the stupidity of your SUB-KILOTON claim that ticked me off here. I prefer low GT as I said because it is still reasonable and fits with Covenant glassing operations./

Yes, now that you have shown that the Encyclopedia's numbers are wrong I refuse to debate against it in any debate and should you post a thread about it I shall link here and urge others to do the same.

Oh, and did you watch the entire scene from The Strom? Because you are being dishonest if you claim - especially after being corrected - that the FORERUNNER Keyship was destroyed because we can still see it intact after the fireballs clear and when it enters the portal.

I admitted that I was wrong, but as I showed we see fireballs and then they fade and we no longer see a ship. It isn't a draw range issue so do explain how my assumption that a ship was destroyed is wrong?

Now can we get this debate back on topic? Please point out if I missed anything as always.

No, given that the encyclopedia is wrong and impossible to reconcile with the games I refuse to debate it.

Invader Taz, in his post as quoted here has conceded that the Halo Encyclopedia cannot be reconciled with the games for reasons stated in this thread. Thus the book is null and void for the purposes of using it in debates. I urge others not to debate him on this topic at risk of feeding the troll.

[Srelex]

For the Halo Wars vid, don't you mean 17:10-17-25?

[Norade]

Yes, yes I do, but it's sadly too late to edit that and I was typing quickly. Either way, the stupidity has been crushed and intelligence once again reigns in this thread.

[Jake]

Either way, the stupidity has been crushed and intelligence once again reigns in this thread.

Not if anything to say about it I have...

I'm back, and I have new evidence that proves the game scene is unreliable.

Xess wrote:

I did some rough scaling on the Halo 3 crater fight scene with MS Paint, hence the rough part, and found the 14 km tall Keyship to be 69 pixels tall and the crater to be about 350 wide given the edge is just off the screen. The crater is circular and the UNSC frigates fire from the edge from what I can tell. The last shot fired impacts at most a second later, let's say .1 seconds since we just see the explosion. That means the crater is 71 km wide and the MAC round had a velocity of 710 km/s. That gives a KE of 1.5123e17 Joules, or 36 megatons for a 600 ton shell.

First of all, from Halo 3 and Halo 3 ODST, we know the portal stretches from Voi to New Mombasa (we see it fully uncovered in Voi in Halo 3 and the Covenant glass parts of New Mombasa to reach the portal in Halo 3 ODST). According to the road sign in the Halo 3 level Tsavo Highway, Voi is around 131 km from New Mombasa. This makes the diameter of the portal around 131km. Since the forerunner ship is in the middle, the frigates fire at 65.5 km from the edge. With Norade's conservative estimate of .5 seconds before impact, the 600 ton projectile will be traveling at 131km/sec. Now, take a look at this: http://aquarid.physics.uwo.ca/~pbrown/E ... 201997.pdf. Note that this meteor, bright enough to cast shadows on a sunny day and to turn the landscape red, weighs around 15 tons and traveled at around 25km/sec upon entering the atmosphere, most likely slower by the time it could be seen. Our MAC round, which is moving more than 5X as fast as said meteor (with the conservative estimate), and weighs 40X as much, produces no visual effects in the scene from the storm. Since this indicates no energy transfer to the atmosphere, we can draw one of three conclusions:
1: This scene violates conservation of energy and can not be used in a scientific debate
2: 26th century humans have some sort of magic technology that negates the effect of air friction and pressure
3: Portal Magic
I'm inclined to go with 1, considering 2 has never been mentioned in books or games and 3 is impossible to prove. As such, if we want to this debate to be scientifically sound, this scene and all evidence from it should be discounted.

[Norade]

Either way, the stupidity has been crushed and intelligence once again reigns in this thread.

Not if anything to say about it I have...

I'm back, and I have new evidence that proves the game scene is unreliable.

So you admit that you're not intelligent and that you want idiocy to reign once again in this thread... Way to burn yourself you fucking sack of failure.

I did some rough scaling on the Halo 3 crater fight scene with MS Paint, hence the rough part, and found the 14 km tall Keyship to be 69 pixels tall and the crater to be about 350 wide given the edge is just off the screen. The crater is circular and the UNSC frigates fire from the edge from what I can tell. The last shot fired impacts at most a second later, let's say .1 seconds since we just see the explosion. That means the crater is 71 km wide and the MAC round had a velocity of 710 km/s. That gives a KE of 1.5123e17 Joules, or 36 megatons for a 600 ton shell.

First of all, from Halo 3 and Halo 3 ODST, we know the portal stretches from Voi to New Mombasa (we see it fully uncovered in Voi in Halo 3 and the Covenant glass parts of New Mombasa to reach the portal in Halo 3 ODST). According to the road sign in the Halo 3 level Tsavo Highway, Voi is around 131 km from New Mombasa. This makes the diameter of the portal around 131km. Since the forerunner ship is in the middle, the frigates fire at 65.5 km from the edge. With Norade's conservative estimate of .5 seconds before impact, the 600 ton projectile will be traveling at 131km/sec. Now, take a look at this: http://aquarid.physics.uwo.ca/~pbrown/E ... 201997.pdf. Note that this meteor, bright enough to cast shadows on a sunny day and to turn the landscape red, weighs around 15 tons and traveled at around 25km/sec upon entering the atmosphere, most likely slower by the time it could be seen. Our MAC round, which is moving more than 5X as fast as said meteor (with the conservative estimate), and weighs 40X as much, produces no visual effects in the scene from the storm. Since this indicates no energy transfer to the atmosphere, we can draw one of three conclusions:
1: This scene violates conservation of energy and can not be used in a scientific debate
2: 26th century humans have some sort of magic technology that negates the effect of air friction and pressure
3: Portal Magic
I'm inclined to go with 1, considering 2 has never been mentioned in books or games and 3 is impossible to prove. As such, if we want to this debate to be scientifically sound, this scene and all evidence from it should be discounted.

Except by that scaling the key ships in the middle would have to be many times larger than we know they are. As the ships are of a known size we must instead use that scaling for the crater and not the one that would make them have to nearly double in size to maintain a consistent scale. Also, as the shots could have taken just over a second from firing to impact at longest that 600ton mass may simply have been flying slowly enough to not cause sever atmospheric effects. Not to mention that it was made up of different materials and may have had a shape designed to reduce friction when fired in atmosphere further reducing effects.

Not to mention that just because a scene doesn't appear to make sense doesn't mean that we can throw it out.

[Xess]

My scaling actually put the crater at 71km in radius, not diameter. Not much of a difference.

[Norade]

My scaling actually put the crater at 71km in radius, not diameter. Not much of a difference.

Oh, then Jake is trying to use his diameter as his radius as the shots are fired to the center of the crater. That makes all of this even more retarded.

[Jake]

So you admit that you're not intelligent and that you want idiocy to reign once again in this thread... Way to burn yourself you fucking sack of failure.

It was a joke you idiot.

Except by that scaling the key ships in the middle would have to be many times larger than we know they are. As the ships are of a known size we must instead use that scaling for the crater and not the one that would make them have to nearly double in size to maintain a consistent scale.

The 14km size was determined by fan scaling from Halo 2. However, fan scaling in halo 3 (comparing it to a covenant ccs class battlecruiser) puts it at around 2.5 km in height (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Forerunner_Dreadnought). Either way, this seems to prove fan scaling from the game is unreliable. However, the road sign and the glassing of Mombasa are clear indications given in the game as to the portal's approximate dimensions.

Also, as the shots could have taken just over a second from firing to impact at longest that 600ton mass may simply have been flying slowly enough to not cause sever atmospheric effects.

Even if they did take a second it would still be traveling faster than the meteor, although the cutscene indicates that it should be alot less than a second, since the explosions are already receding less than a second after the last ship fires.

Not to mention that it was made up of different materials and may have had a shape designed to reduce friction when fired in atmosphere further reducing effects.

It was made of iron, tungsten, and possibly carbon. The main difference would be that it wouldn't break up as easily in the atmosphere, so most if not all of the energy due to friction and pressure differences will be spent as heat (as opposed to tearing itself apart like a meteor) so we should have more visual effects if anything. Also, this thing is moving at 131km/sec = 131,000m/sec. The speed of sound is 343m/sec. Conclusion: This 600 ton projectile is moving at mach 382. For comparison, the space shuttle enters the atmosphere at mach 25, and even then you see the effects of the heat generated (also note that the space shuttle is aerodynamic enough to fly), so you would easily see the effects of this thing, no matter how aerodynamic the shape.

Not to mention that just because a scene doesn't appear to make sense doesn't mean that we can throw it out.

Uh, this scene violates an UNDISPUTED LAW OF NATURE. With your logic I can say that the ships were firing at .4c, and that just because it doesn't appear to make sense doesn't mean we can throw my assumption out.

Oh, then Jake is trying to use his diameter as his radius as the shots are fired to the center of the crater. That makes all of this even more retarded.

I was using the radius, jackass. 131 km crater. 65.5 km to forerunner dreadnought. 1/2 second (YOUR MOST CONSERVATIVE ASSUMPTION) to hit. 65.5km/.5sec = 131km/sec. So, Norade is either a. A lair b. Can't read c. Doesn't know what a radius means d. Doesn't know basic physics or e. All of the above. Can you figure this one out, dumbass?

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Uh, this scene violates an UNDISPUTED LAW OF NATURE. With your logic I can say that the ships were firing at .4c, and that just because it doesn't appear to make sense doesn't mean we can throw my assumption out.

Sci-fi series routinely violate causality, thermodynamics and hey, ftl travel violates an undisputed law of nature. If something is shown to do something, you cannot reject it simply by saying "oh, that's impossible because it violates known physics so let's ignore it".

[Jake]

Sci-fi series routinely violate causality, thermodynamics and hey, ftl travel violates an undisputed law of nature. If something is shown to do something, you cannot reject it simply by saying "oh, that's impossible because it violates known physics so let's ignore it".

Ok then. I then ask you to concede that the frigates were firing at .4c, because if physics is not the deciding factor in this debate you have no way to disprove the numbers given by the books. Also, ftl is not really faster than light in most cases. Usually they find 'shortcuts' most of which are theoretically plausible.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Sci-fi series routinely violate causality, thermodynamics and hey, ftl travel violates an undisputed law of nature. If something is shown to do something, you cannot reject it simply by saying "oh, that's impossible because it violates known physics so let's ignore it".

Ok then. I then ask you to concede that the frigates were firing at .4c, because if physics is not the deciding factor in this debate you have no way to disprove the numbers given by the books. Also, ftl is not really faster than light in most cases. Usually they find 'shortcuts' most of which are theoretically plausible.

I'm not part of this argument, but I believe the visuals in the game disprove the .4c number, and the visuals in the game over-ride the books, and the games visuals cannot be dismissed merely because they do something you cannot explain.

But if you're going to use this argument, you have to concede that your side would lose by virtue of not having FTL travel because FTL can't exist because it violates known physics. Fucking retard.

[Jake]

I'm not part of this argument, but I believe the visuals in the game disprove the .4c number, and the visuals in the game over-ride the books, and the games visuals cannot be dismissed merely because they do something you cannot explain.

No, without physics, they don't. You don't actually see the projectile path when the ships fire. It simply shows the ships firing and about a second later it cuts to the receding explosions on the forerunner ship. As such, you can assume that the projectiles are going any speed you want, provided its less than 1 sec. And they do something I can explain, violate conservation of energy.

But if you're going to use this argument, you have to concede that your side would lose by virtue of not having FTL travel because FTL can't exist because it violates known physics. Fucking retard.

As I just said in my last post, ftl does not actually faster than light, idiot. In the case of halo (and star wars) ftl involves wormhole/other dimension travel that acts as a shortcut, therefore bypassing the speed of light and obeying known (at least theoretical) physics.

[Norade]

So you admit that you're not intelligent and that you want idiocy to reign once again in this thread... Way to burn yourself you fucking sack of failure.

It was a joke you idiot.

Make it funny next time and I might not mistake it for an admission of your retardation.

Except by that scaling the key ships in the middle would have to be many times larger than we know they are. As the ships are of a known size we must instead use that scaling for the crater and not the one that would make them have to nearly double in size to maintain a consistent scale.

The 14km size was determined by fan scaling from Halo 2. However, fan scaling in halo 3 (comparing it to a covenant ccs class battlecruiser) puts it at around 2.5 km in height (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Forerunner_Dreadnought). Either way, this seems to prove fan scaling from the game is unreliable. However, the road sign and the glassing of Mombasa are clear indications given in the game as to the portal's approximate dimensions.

The 14km scaling seems to fit best with the crater that it is set in given the 131km measurement and Xess's scaling.

Also, as the shots could have taken just over a second from firing to impact at longest that 600ton mass may simply have been flying slowly enough to not cause sever atmospheric effects.

Even if they did take a second it would still be traveling faster than the meteor, although the cutscene indicates that it should be alot less than a second, since the explosions are already receding less than a second after the last ship fires.

Either way it makes very little difference as a railgun/coilgun rounds aren't the same as a meteor. Even you should be able to understand this.

Not to mention that it was made up of different materials and may have had a shape designed to reduce friction when fired in atmosphere further reducing effects.

It was made of iron, tungsten, and possibly carbon. The main difference would be that it wouldn't break up as easily in the atmosphere, so most if not all of the energy due to friction and pressure differences will be spent as heat (as opposed to tearing itself apart like a meteor) so we should have more visual effects if anything. Also, this thing is moving at 131km/sec = 131,000m/sec. The speed of sound is 343m/sec. Conclusion: This 600 ton projectile is moving at mach 382. For comparison, the space shuttle enters the atmosphere at mach 25, and even then you see the effects of the heat generated (also note that the space shuttle is aerodynamic enough to fly), so you would easily see the effects of this thing, no matter how aerodynamic the shape.

Assuming that it is the mass of pure tungsten you only need about a 31 square meter projectile. If it was shaped as a rough cylinder this could mean a roughly 1.5m by 5m object compared to the space shuttle which is 376 times larger than the projectile and likely far less aerodynamic. The meteor you posted info about would also be far less aerodynamic than a round designed to have low drag. Given this data we can assume that there were effects caused by the projectile, but due to aerodynamic mitigation they were to minor to see.

This resolves the issue nicely and doesn't force us to disregard anything making the point I am snipping from below irrelevant unless you intend to prove, with math and not suppositions that a tungsten slug would cause atmospheric effects that would be visible to the naked eye.

Oh, then Jake is trying to use his diameter as his radius as the shots are fired to the center of the crater. That makes all of this even more retarded.

I was using the radius, jackass. 131 km crater. 65.5 km to forerunner dreadnought. 1/2 second (YOUR MOST CONSERVATIVE ASSUMPTION) to hit. 65.5km/.5sec = 131km/sec. So, Norade is either a. A lair b. Can't read c. Doesn't know what a radius means d. Doesn't know basic physics or e. All of the above. Can you figure this one out, dumbass?

Sorry, I had been thinking that the shot took a second to get there and that would make it a 131km radius. My mistake. If this is the case then your numbers are more conservative than the one that had been used before and the scaling of the ship would remain correct at ~14km.

[Norade]

I'm not part of this argument, but I believe the visuals in the game disprove the .4c number, and the visuals in the game over-ride the books, and the games visuals cannot be dismissed merely because they do something you cannot explain.

No, without physics, they don't. You don't actually see the projectile path when the ships fire. It simply shows the ships firing and about a second later it cuts to the receding explosions on the forerunner ship. As such, you can assume that the projectiles are going any speed you want, provided its less than 1 sec. And they do something I can explain, violate conservation of energy.

But if you're going to use this argument, you have to concede that your side would lose by virtue of not having FTL travel because FTL can't exist because it violates known physics. Fucking retard.

As I just said in my last post, ftl does not actually faster than light, idiot. In the case of halo (and star wars) ftl involves wormhole/other dimension travel that acts as a shortcut, therefore bypassing the speed of light and obeying known (at least theoretical) physics.

This is all fucking pointless as I showed earlier a subgigaton level shot going through the hull of a Covenant warship. So even with nitpicks the Covenant still suck ass.

[Jake]

Make it funny next time and I might not mistake it for an admission of your retardation.

It was a star wars reference. Considering how vehemently you support the empire, I thought you would get it.

Either way it makes very little difference as a railgun/coilgun rounds aren't the same as a meteor. Even you should be able to understand this.

I think it is you who doesn't understand fluid dynamics very well. Something traveling at mach 382 is going to produce a noticeable release of energy during flight and upon impact.

Assuming that it is the mass of pure tungsten you only need about a 31 square meter projectile. If it was shaped as a rough cylinder this could mean a roughly 1.5m by 5m object compared to the space shuttle which is 376 times larger than the projectile and likely far less aerodynamic.

First of all, 31 square meters is a measure of area, not volume, so unless your think MAC rounds are 2 dimensional, use the correct units. Secondly, I think its better to use iron, because after doing some research, I found that high speed steel, a steel (which is mostly iron) tungsten alloy has 18% or less tungsten. The density of iron is 7830kg/m^3, so to get a mass of 600 tons (544310.844 kg), we need a volume of 69.52m^3. For the meteor in the previous link, we have a mass of 15 tons. The density of rock is approximately 2.7ton/m^3. So, the volume of our meteor would be around 5.56m^3. So, with your estimate the MAC round is 5.58X the volume of the meteor and with mine it is 12.5X the volume. It is also moving 5X as fast. Do you still think there will be no visible effects?

The meteor you posted info about would also be far less aerodynamic than a round designed to have low drag. Given this data we can assume that there were effects caused by the projectile, but due to aerodynamic mitigation they were to minor to see.

MACs are designed to be fired in space. Even in game, during the level the ark, the marines were worried if the dawn, a frigate like the ones in the storm, was rated for atmosphere. As such, MAC rounds do not have to be aerodynamic, since they were not designed to be fired in atmosphere. In fact, if you want to pack the most ammo you can in one ship, it might make sense to make the rounds spherical. So is it more aerodynamic than a meteor? Yes, probably a little due to the fact that it is machined, but I doubt it will matter considering it is larger and moves faster than the meteor.

Given this data we can assume that there were effects caused by the projectile, but due to aerodynamic mitigation they were to minor to see.

See above

This resolves the issue nicely and doesn't force us to disregard anything making the point I am snipping from below irrelevant unless you intend to prove, with math and not suppositions that a tungsten slug would cause atmospheric effects that would be visible to the naked eye.

Your welcome

This is all fucking pointless as I showed earlier a subgigaton level shot going through the hull of a Covenant warship. So even with nitpicks the Covenant still suck ass.

If you mean the supposed flood pod, we don't have enough information to make that claim. The shadow of intent had just left a space battle where its fleet was outnumbered 3 to 1. It was also the elite's flagship and most likely the enemy's primary target. It stands to reason that it may have lost its shields and even taken hull damage before the thing hit.