Terminator vs Predator

[Sarevok]

Well simple electrical discharges from household powerlines can put a Terminator offline for a few minutes as seen in T:SCC. A purpose built EMP gun should do the same at least. The concept of electrical insulation seems to have eluded Skynet.

[Shroom Man 777]

I don't know. T:SCC's stuff probably isn't applicable to the movie Terminators, due to inconsistencies and stuff. In T1 we've seen the Terminator handle high voltage electrical wires, shoving them into other electrical thinggies, (to blackout the police station) with no ill effect. I mean, shit, T:SCC Terminators melt like putty while T4 Terminator can get bathed in lava and liquid nitrogen and still keep on going. T:SCC Terminators can't take repeated shotgun blasts to the face, while T4 Terminators eat 40mm grenades for breakfast and come back for dessert and a T1 Terminator gets halved by a pipe bomb.

[Temujin]

Never saw T:SCC, so I'm going by the movies, as Shroomie already pointed out.

I don't know. T:SCC's stuff probably isn't applicable to the movie Terminators, due to inconsistencies and stuff. In T1 we've seen the Terminator handle high voltage electrical wires, shoving them into other electrical thinggies, (to blackout the police station) with no ill effect. I mean, shit, T:SCC Terminators melt like putty while T4 Terminator can get bathed in lava and liquid nitrogen and still keep on going. T:SCC Terminators can't take repeated shotgun blasts to the face, while T4 Terminators eat 40mm grenades for breakfast and come back for dessert and a T1 Terminator gets halved by a pipe bomb.

Admit it, you still love Robot Rivers though!

[Thanas]

I don't know. T:SCC's stuff probably isn't applicable to the movie Terminators, due to inconsistencies and stuff. In T1 we've seen the Terminator handle high voltage electrical wires, shoving them into other electrical thinggies, (to blackout the police station) with no ill effect.

Handling does not equal getting zapped by one. I mean, Cameron handles powerlines quite well.

I mean, shit, T:SCC Terminators melt like putty while T4 Terminator can get bathed in lava and liquid nitrogen and still keep on going.

Eh - actually the stuff they use in T:SCC burns hotter than Lava.

T:SCC Terminators can't take repeated shotgun blasts to the face

Can't take repeated shotgun blasts with depleted uranian slugs to the face, usual stuff does not faze them either.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm a bit curious how people are envisioning "plasma weapons" to work (eg how they do damage, things like that, etc.) since that's highly relevant. Especially considering the cross conversation between energy weaponry vs projectiles.

[Thanas]

I'm a bit curious how people are envisioning "plasma weapons" to work (eg how they do damage, things like that, etc.) since that's highly relevant. Especially considering the cross conversation between energy weaponry vs projectiles.

Well, for Terminator weapons, there seems to be little difference than a typical laser weapon.

[Aaron]

I'm a bit curious how people are envisioning "plasma weapons" to work (eg how they do damage, things like that, etc.) since that's highly relevant. Especially considering the cross conversation between energy weaponry vs projectiles.

I figured the the Predators shoulder weapon used heat. In the original movie it blew Dylan's arm right off but it didn't appear to be losing massive amounts of blood, so I thought it was cauterized. And IIRC a large number of the other hits showed burns as well.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, for Terminator weapons, there seems to be little difference than a typical laser weapon.

Hmm.. what do you consider a "typical laser" weapon? Not to sound like an ass but lasers can operate in alot of different ways. Purely by heat or by mechanical effects (simulating explosives on impact) and it can get more diverse than that. Do they burn/melt/vaporize? Do they make stuff explode? Do they do a combination of both, or alternate (multiple settings?) Are they individual pulses/bolts (like SW blasterS) or do they fire what apperas to be a beam?

I figured the the Predators shoulder weapon used heat. In the original movie it blew Dylan's arm right off but it didn't appear to be losing massive amounts of blood, so I thought it was cauterized. And IIRC a large number of the other hits showed burns as well.

Well, thermal and mechanical damage effects aren't mutally exclusive. Alot of it depends on how the energy is delieverd and "efficiency". Ideally the most efficient is to rely heavily on as much blast and little energy (like a HE does) but effieicny may need to be sacrificed for some other tradeoff (reliability for example, or portability.)

I sorta figured the Predator wepaon behaves like an energy weapon grenade launcher type with variable settings (eg you can make it more or less explosive if you choose, sorta like the diff between HE/frag and incendiary I imagine.) and it may have the possible effect (from what I recall from the first movie blowing out much of a guy's chest) of having a fair bit of a modern grenade's power (a few hundred kj could do that, I think.)

[Thanas]

Well, for Terminator weapons, there seems to be little difference than a typical laser weapon.

Hmm.. what do you consider a "typical laser" weapon? Not to sound like an ass but lasers can operate in alot of different ways. Purely by heat or by mechanical effects (simulating explosives on impact) and it can get more diverse than that. Do they burn/melt/vaporize? Do they make stuff explode? Do they do a combination of both, or alternate (multiple settings?) Are they individual pulses/bolts (like SW blasterS) or do they fire what apperas to be a beam?

Individual bolts, with - when used on terminators - a burn/melt combination. In T:SCC there were no mechanical effects seen, but I believe in T1 there were. So maybe depending on setting.

[Connor MacLeod]

Individual bolts, with - when used on terminators - a burn/melt combination. In T:SCC there were no mechanical effects seen, but I believe in T1 there were. So maybe depending on setting.

So probably not a very explosive weapon. More like an incendaiary/flame thrower type weapon but with a far better ability to penetrate or "spread" that energy for more extensive burning/melting.

Ok.. so then may not be easy to compare to Predator weapons, since I recall they could have a potentially explosive effect (you dont need alot of eenergy to blast a hole in something, and we have seen bits of body flying out of the holes anyhow.)

Have we seen Predators hit by any quantity of explosive? A grenade of any kind? a stick of dynamite? That might offer a more useful comparison.

[Aaron]

In the original movie Arnie uses an arrow IIRC that he packed with explosive from a 40mm grenade on it. It hits the branch next to it and IIRC all it does is destroy the cloak.

[Anguirus]

Have we seen Predators hit by any quantity of explosive? A grenade of any kind? a stick of dynamite? That might offer a more useful comparison.

Two instances in the new movie.
Spoiler

A Predator is killed by a suiciding victim holding a grenade right up against his body. Another Predator takes only minor injuries from a booby trap rigged with 3-4 grenades, however they weren't crammed up against him. Also, these are so-called "superpredators," a slightly larger and more aggressive, closely related species with the same hunting technology.

And then of course, Dutch uses two 40 mm grenades against his Predator, both near-misses, one of which only destroyed his cloaking system but the other of which inflicted a stomach wound that bled heavily.

[Connor MacLeod]

*bangs head on desk* sorry, I was thinking Terminators vs explosives. but the predator bits might be useful too, you never know. Bullets and explosives aren't exactly alike either

sorry for the mixup guys.

[Sarevok]

Personally I did not like how plasma weapons in T:SCC could easily one shot Terminators. Terminators can soak up huge amounts of firepower from 20th century weapons. So one would expect a weapon that kills a terminator with a single shot produce a massive boom. But no, they are just magic rayguns that punch holes in otherwise invulnerable Terminators. Its like how silver bullets kills werewolves who are otherwise invincible to normal bullets.

[Thanas]

Personally I did not like how plasma weapons in T:SCC could easily one shot Terminators.

Only if they hit the head and fry the chip.

[Connor MacLeod]

Personally I did not like how plasma weapons in T:SCC could easily one shot Terminators. Terminators can soak up huge amounts of firepower from 20th century weapons. So one would expect a weapon that kills a terminator with a single shot produce a massive boom. But no, they are just magic rayguns that punch holes in otherwise invulnerable Terminators. Its like how silver bullets kills werewolves who are otherwise invincible to normal bullets.

Um, you do realize a bullet and a beam weapon are different right? If a plasma weapon effects in T:SCC behaved like a particle beam (or an projectile with a particle beam emitting warhead) it could be much more highly penetrative of the target material than a bullet would. PBWs would generally be more dependent upon velocity/KE than mass as it is anyhow.

Indeed if they do serious thermal/burning effects against living beings without necesarily creating gory exploding holes, then they probably need a highly penetrating radiation component to inflict deep-reaching burns.

[Sarevok]

*bangs head on desk* sorry, I was thinking Terminators vs explosives. but the predator bits might be useful too, you never know. Bullets and explosives aren't exactly alike either

sorry for the mixup guys.

The Terminator in first movie was sitting in a gas truck that exploded like a massive car bomb. He was still walking and fighting after that.

[Thanas]

T:SCC plasma rifle and its effects as shown here at 3:03 onwards.

[Sarevok]

Um, you do realize a bullet and a beam weapon are different right? If a plasma weapon effects in T:SCC behaved like a particle beam (or an projectile with a particle beam emitting warhead) it could be much more highly penetrative of the target material than a bullet would. PBWs would generally be more dependent upon velocity/KE than mass as it is anyhow.

I dunno. Plasma weapons dont behave liked some kind of shaped charge anti tank weapon effect that burrows through a tiny hole. Neither do they show any indication of penetrating armor and attacking vulnerable components within like a true particle beam weapon. Onscreen plasma weapon effects are pretty much standard raygun blasts seen everywhere from stargate to star trek. Your argument would hold water if headshots from a plasma weapon merely destroyed the chip inside through intense penetrating radiation reaching the delicate circuitry. But as I recall the head shot from a plasma weapon looked like someone took a hammer to the poor terminators skull. IIRC the head shot decapitated the said terminator. I will try to post a screencap tomorrow.

[Connor MacLeod]

T:SCC plasma rifle and its effects as shown here at 3:03 onwards.

Thanks. youtube resolution and a crappy eyesight make it hard for me to be sure, but I'm guessing the plasma bolt hit him in the upper temple and supposedly is blowing part of his brain out onto the floor?

[Thanas]

T:SCC plasma rifle and its effects as shown here at 3:03 onwards.

Thanks. youtube resolution and a crappy eyesight make it hard for me to be sure, but I'm guessing the plasma bolt hit him in the upper temple and supposedly is blowing part of his brain out onto the floor?

No, it completely vaporized/melted the part of the Terminator it hit. In case you did not view the whole video - the guy was a reprogrammed T-888. That I got it in DVD resoltion - you can see parts missing when his face lands on the floor and other parts melted.


EDIT: Pause at 3:10.

[Sarevok]

Anyway regardless of how skynet plasma weapons technology works one thing is clear. This is science fiction so plasma weapon not equal to plasma weapon just like "laser" means so many wildly different types of weapons. Given Predators plasma caster is not Skynet made there is no reason at all to believe it will have same exaggerated effect. Terminators easily shrug of blasts larger than what the caster typically produces so the plasma caster would be an ineffective weapon.

[Connor MacLeod]

[
I dunno. Plasma weapons dont behave liked some kind of shaped charge anti tank weapon effect that burrows through a tiny hole.

a shaped charge is a hypervelocity stream of molten metal, which is nothing like a particle beam. That's why I explicitly avoided mentioning "shaped charge." to avoid making that confusing.

Neither do they show any indication of penetrating armor and attacking vulnerable components within like a true particle beam weapon. Onscreen plasma weapon effects are pretty much standard raygun blasts seen everywhere from stargate to star trek.

Of course its not going to be 100% like a particle beam weapon, which is precisely why I specified the "warhead" bit. If we're dealing with some sort of projectile, for example, especially one invoking "magictech" it could have any number of mechanisms operating. Blasters are much the same way. the Penetrative ability of particle beams depends in large part on both the velocity and the mass of the particles (bigger particles, like those composing alpha radiation are slower and less enetrating than beta radiation, which are high velocity electrons.)

Mind you I'm not quite sure what you think a "true particle beam" would look like anyhow or what sorts of energies would e needed for a given effect.

Your argument would hold water if headshots from a plasma weapon merely destroyed the chip inside through intense penetrating radiation reaching the delicate circuitry. But as I recall the head shot from a plasma weapon looked like someone took a hammer to the poor terminators skull. IIRC the head shot decapitated the said terminator. I will try to post a screencap tomorrow.

Um, you realize that if you vaporize a portion of mateiral quickly enough, you can simulate an explosive? That's not neccesarily the same thing as penetration, you know.

[Connor MacLeod]

No, it completely vaporized/melted the part of the Terminator it hit. In case you did not view the whole video - the guy was a reprogrammed T-888. That I got it in DVD resoltion - you can see parts missing when his face lands on the floor and other parts melted.


EDIT: Pause at 3:10.

Ah. well audio isnt working for me so that explains it.

Problem I see though is, if its molten, unless it has a very very low temp it should be glowing if molten. The only way around that is if the Terminator has some funky means of rapidly radiating energy away (which is going to complicate things with the mechanism and all that, especially if we're talking a large amount of energy.)

alternately its that Termiantors have some weird liquidity component in their brains that somehow hardens when exposed to air. *shrugs*

[Thanas]

No, it completely vaporized/melted the part of the Terminator it hit. In case you did not view the whole video - the guy was a reprogrammed T-888. That I got it in DVD resoltion - you can see parts missing when his face lands on the floor and other parts melted.


EDIT: Pause at 3:10.

Ah. well audio isnt working for me so that explains it.

Problem I see though is, if its molten, unless it has a very very low temp it should be glowing if molten. The only way around that is if the Terminator has some funky means of rapidly radiating energy away (which is going to complicate things with the mechanism and all that, especially if we're talking a large amount of energy.)

I checked with my DVD. It is not molten - what looks molten but is not is actually the jaded edge from where the blast hit. Easy to mistake in the YOutube bit, but when you see it in full screen, no melting effect there. Just blasted away.

alternately its that Termiantors have some weird liquidity component in their brains that somehow hardens when exposed to air. *shrugs*

We know they do not.